21 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Not a fan, honestly. I love playing cards, but poker is all about playing people, which is far beyond me.

No, it's not. Limit poker is 95% math, 5% other (hand-reading, tells, pot-size management, bluffs). No-limit poker, by contrast, is 75% math, 25% the rest.

You might like limit poker, while not liking no-limit poker. I do. (Well, to be more specific, I like no-limit poker, but I'm a break-even player at no-limit and a significant winner at limit, so limit is what I prefer.)

(BTW, poker has plenty of angling.)

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

I’m going to be honest, i’m having a really hard time believing i’m actually taking to Darth Meanie. Are you feeling alright? Have you hit your head? Blink in Morse Code if aliens are controlling your mind. 😜

Jokes aside, I am still rather taken aback by your change of tune. While I could have issues with how you expressed your preferences of play, I always respected what you wanted out of the game. Seeing you talk like this feels like a defeat.

While I agree that Hyperspace does bring opportunities and ease with it, it is really hard to deny the counter points made by others. I’ll enjoy it as a side dish, but think it is a mistake to try to try to make it the main dish. Time will tell if I’m right or wrong.

*blink* *blink*

I still want the same things I always wanted out of the game: Epic and Missions. I've been defeated and slogging thru the desert for awhile.

So, with no oasis on the horizon, all I can do is pontificate with the rest of you about Hyperspace.

I mean, the only real "arguments" pro-Extended is "I want to play with any ship at any time (even if I won't)," and "I expect FFG to do their job (as I see it) and balance my entire set of ships."

Whereas I can think of as lot of good reasons for Limited-Rotation, once you get past the idea that your conversion kit wasn't as useful as you thought. Maybe that's why I can be so sanguine about Limited-Rotation: I didn't pony up money for the CKs only to find they were 1/2 as useful as expected.

I mean, one tune that I have been consistent about even at the end of 1.0 is that balance in this game is totally impossible if you expect every component to remain viable forever. I know a lot of people don't believe that, but IMHO they are way overly optimistic. Big mistakes need to be pruned, and little mistakes need to be corrected.

I also think that course-correcting a smaller pool of ships is going to be healthier for the game than trying to over-manage the whole fleet. Lastly, I think that if Hyperspace-Limited takes the brunt of the hyper-intensity, Extended can be allowed to get a little more playful-loose and sloppy-fun.

It's too bad MajorJuggler's revised X-Wing 1.0 never launched; it would have been a neat experiment to see if someone could do it better.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I also think that course-correcting a smaller pool of ships is going to be healthier for the game than trying to over-manage the whole fleet. Lastly, I think that if Hyperspace-Limited takes the brunt of the hyper-intensity, Extended can be allowed to get a little more playful-loose and sloppy-fun.

You have a lot of faith in a company with a... questionable reputation for "balancing" the game.

25 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

*blink* *blink*

I still want the same things I always wanted out of the game: Epic and Missions. I've been defeated and slogging thru the desert for awhile.

So, with no oasis on the horizon, all I can do is pontificate with the rest of you about Hyperspace.

I mean, the only real "arguments" pro-Extended is "I want to play with any ship at any time (even if I won't)," and "I expect FFG to do their job (as I see it) and balance my entire set of ships."

Whereas I can think of as lot of good reasons for Limited-Rotation, once you get past the idea that your conversion kit wasn't as useful as you thought. Maybe that's why I can be so sanguine about Limited-Rotation: I didn't pony up money for the CKs only to find they were 1/2 as useful as expected.

I mean, one tune that I have been consistent about even at the end of 1.0 is that balance in this game is totally impossible if you expect every component to remain viable forever. I know a lot of people don't believe that, but IMHO they are way overly optimistic. Big mistakes need to be pruned, and little mistakes need to be corrected.

I also think that course-correcting a smaller pool of ships is going to be healthier for the game than trying to over-manage the whole fleet. Lastly, I think that if Hyperspace-Limited takes the brunt of the hyper-intensity, Extended can be allowed to get a little more playful-loose and sloppy-fun.

It's too bad MajorJuggler's revised X-Wing 1.0 never launched; it would have been a neat experiment to see if someone could do it better.

I understand that. Still seems to clash with your previous stances is all.

As I said before, time will tell how well Hyperspace goes. I can understand both arguments for and against it. Hopefully FFG can work it out to make at least parts of both camps happy.

1 hour ago, Koing907 said:

You have a lot of faith in a company with a... questionable reputation for "balancing" the game.

Faith? I thought I was defeated. I'm so confused.

Speaking of confused, your statement makes me wonder why people would be unhappy if FFG tried to dial it back and get it right, if only for the small pond.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Speaking of confused, your statement makes me wonder why people would be unhappy if FFG tried to dial it back and get it right, if only for the small pond.

Because there are fish in the pond and not the frogs they want.

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Because there are fish in the pond and not the frogs they want.

I never said anything about fish!!

And in any event, frogs are way better. As amphibians, they are a sentinel species. It's a perfect analogy for how Hyperspace could improve the game. Well put!!

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I never said anything about fish!!

And in any event, frogs are way better. As amphibians, they are a sentinel species. It's a perfect analogy for how Hyperspace could improve the game. Well put!!

Except the frogs in @Hiemfire‘s metaphor represents Extended. Redirection foul. No points.

Fish, frogs, flies?

Did FFG or Disney announced the Yuzzahn Vong as a new $tar War$ faction?

Anyway, here is what Hyperspace going to be. Hyperspace is the official format for X-wing tournaments for OP. Yeah sure there is something called the System Open but as far as Nationals and up that is the only format OP will focus on. So any point corrections will go to that format and not to any ship/pilot/upgrade in extended. And in its current state, it is unreasonably (subjective term but still fits) restrictive with each faction having only 3-5 ships legal.

Now the future is still up for debate. Hopefully as the 4 new factions get more ships the ship count per faction grows to at least 10 ships per faction. Extended will eventually find its way into the official format as more ships get their 2.0 release. If OP does try and do some sort of rotation it will cause just as much of a ruckuss (if not more) if all of a sudden ship models that were legal this year are not legal the next year.

53 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Hyperspace is the official format for X-wing tournaments for OP

That is - for now - wrong.

Store champs are the type of tournament that most people will play, and they can be either Extended or Hyperspace.

Regionals and Nationals are Hyperspace, SystemOpens Extended.

Here's my final take on the formats:

Fact is that old-timers constantly leave the game, for whatever reasons: work, family, new hobby, whatever. That makes it necessary to find new players to compensate.
Another fact is that new players have an easier start in Hyperspace than Extended, mainly for two simple reasons:

1) Hyperspace has fewer ships, which makes it less complex to understand. A big part of the game is understanding what your opponent can do, and that's easier with 21 ships than 58, and each with 3-9 different pilots, plus all the upgrades. We old-timers tend to forget how daunting the amount of options can be.

2) Hyperspace consists of the ships that are available as 2.0 version. If you want to buy into the game, then buying another game and convert it requires an already high initial interest. Some people have that, but I'd wager the majority does not start out with that, and some never even get there. I know plenty people who just want to get a ship and put it on the table. The simplicity of the game was, after all, a huge plus when it started out.

Together these reasons tell us that FFG is clever to provide an official format for tournaments that is beginner-friendly.

Of course it is right to say that FFG should not alienate a substantial portion of the existing customer base. And you know what? They don't! They made a second format where the existing customer base can use all the ships they already have. And the two formats are for all intents and purposes very, very similar in extent: It depends on the local playerbase whether they prefer Hyperspace or Extended for their store championships, and they have to communicate their preference to their FLGS. Locally we have one store owner who prefers extended, and one who prefers hyperspace (locally means 1hour apart). A third FLGS alternates between the two. But we can talk to them. And even better, we can also play the format of slightly lower preference, because it is still fun and still X-wing. Personally I prefer extended, but that doesn't matter - I play both because both are fun.

The higher tier tournaments are slightly tilted towards hyperspace, with regionals and nationals, while system opens are extended. But that is entirely as it should: FFG has slightly more interest in promoting hyperspace due to bringing in new players, and also because many old-timers also prefer hyperspace for high tier tournaments. Additionally, hyperspace has the potential to be better balanced due to fewer components, which again makes it the more likely choice for higher tier tournaments. But FFG again made a compromise and we get System Opens with the extended format. System opens are generally the larger events, and that makes extended even more prestigious than hyperspace tournaments.

We do not know yet how the balancing works and how it affects the two formats. We do not know yet whether hyperspace will be rotational or ships will be added, or maybe both: first added to a certain size, then rotated. Maybe with core ships that remain, maybe not. Maybe FFG adjusts and increases the number of ships at some point. We do not know.

So we have:

Hyperspace: Store champs - Regionals - Nationals
Extended: Store champs - System Opens

And System Opens are larger and more prestigious (and IMO more worth to travel for) while regionals are closer. The main point is that store champs can be either, and you really, really should talk to your FLGS about it. Ask them which format they are going for, ask your local community which format they prefer. Maybe they prefer what you don't. If that is the case, give it a try! Take the most broken list you've heard of, or make one yourself. But go and have some fun trying the format that you didn't prefer intitally. Because here's the trick: you are allowed to like both!

13 hours ago, kris40k said:

You can do both, but you would be better off balancing for Extended. Case in point ... Warmahordes, the Community Integrated Development cycles, and Champions / the Active Duty Roster for Organized Play.

The CID cycles are used to continuously balance factions and keep old stuff relevant with new stuff, and is done by looking at the game as a whole. This would be like keeping Extended balanced with new releases.

The ADR is a type of OP format that users a limited pool of warcasters and themes for each faction to reduce what can be played, and change up the competitive tournament meta. This would be similar to a Hyperspace rotation.

Privateer Press has been successful with this method and it could work with X-Wing. But the thing to remember is Extended is where the game would be balanced

If we only did easy stuff, we would have never gotten to the Moon.

Of course, I wouldn't trust FFG to do anything other than the easy option due to their shown capabilities, not because it was the best idea to do.

Thanks for this very interesting post. I was actually aware of WarmaHordes doing exactly this with their game.

The big difference is that WarmaHordes has always been one of the best balanced TT games out there, and they still are making constant efforts to improve upon that.

Oh yeah and FFG should take notes when it comes to their App. War Room is just hyperspaces (pun intended) ahead of our X-Wing App and shows what is possible in that area.

That is actually a meta where you can put such a kind of rotational into place because it is:

a) more easy to put new units into the game and to balance them against the current well balanced meta (not so much the case for X-Wing)

b) you don’t have to go and apply special balancing measures to the rotational format because, again, your „Extended“ meta is so well balanced already that it’s just unnecessary.

For X-Wing to reach this, they would need to balance Extended first, and then maybe think about Hyperspace.

And i just find it excellent that you give the moon landing as an example for this. Because as Kennedy said:

„We choose to go to the Moon...We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept,...“

Balancing a TT game correctly and not choosing the easy way out (hyperspace!) is not as difficult as going to the moon after all, so cmon FFG... put your balancing pants on and get over with it.

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Enzymatically, speaking, I think you are going to find porting 1.0 ships to 2.0 the Rate Limiting Step.

FFG needs to fill out 2 factions from the ground up, and grow 2 more that are babes in swaddling clothes. That will take YEARS with the usual rate of Waves, and at least with Republic and CiS the material is lying about--no waiting for Episode Whatever to be made.

FFG's gotta think "Hmm. Reprint the lame duck E-Wing, TIE Punisher and/or TIE Aggressor, or print a wave of new ships plus the Falcon we know is good?" And I think New Ships are 100% the priority, with the exception of a few "core" ships that make the game Star Wars. The game needs the TIE Interceptor to get converted; the TIE Aggressor, not so much. The TIE Heavy or T-85 will make old players just as happy as new ones.

I think the 2.0-conversion process (as in, creating a new SKU) is going to take so long, that eventually some ships will be "forgotten" and exist as Extended-only forever.

Every day that goes by makes the "Hyperspace vs. Extended" discussion more moot: new players (and they had better be there) will not care about the dichotomy because they will be OK with Hyperspace, and porting 1.0 to 2.0 will "time out" thanks to new material from movies, cartoons, etc.

Yeah it's pretty much this. I personally don't like hyperspace, but I don't see anyway of avoiding it. I bet extended will go the way of 1.0 epic far sooner than a lot of people expect (or want).

6 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

Yeah it's pretty much this. I personally don't like hyperspace, but I don't see anyway of avoiding it. I bet extended will go the way of 1.0 epic far sooner than a lot of people expect (or want).

Then you and @Darth Meanieexpect that system opens will change the format to hyperspace?

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Then you and @Darth Meanieexpect that system opens will change the format to hyperspace?

Well, I do find your Final Take compelling. Maybe the two ideas can coexist.

The main reason I would argue that we will wind up with One Format To Rule Them All is that FFG doesn't seem to have the wherewithal to keep multiple balls in the air at the same time.

5 hours ago, ForceM said:

And i just find it excellent that you give the moon landing as an example for this. Because as Kennedy said:

„We choose to go to the Moon...We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept,...“

Eh.

Mostly we went to the moon because the Soviets were ahead of us in the Space Race and we wanted to win.

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Here's my final take on the formats:

Fact is that old-timers constantly leave the game, for whatever reasons: work, family, new hobby, whatever. That makes it necessary to find new players to compensate.
Another fact is that new players have an easier start in Hyperspace than Extended, mainly for two simple reasons:

1) Hyperspace has fewer ships, which makes it less complex to understand. A big part of the game is understanding what your opponent can do, and that's easier with 21 ships than 58, and each with 3-9 different pilots, plus all the upgrades. We old-timers tend to forget how daunting the amount of options can be.

I did not. All the additional arcs and actions and the utterly convoluted crit card text has made 2.0 much more complex than 1.0. I don't know if this is a barrier for new players, but I suspect strongly that it may be.

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Mostly we went to the moon because the Soviets were ahead of us in the Space Race and we wanted to win.

The space race was pure propaganda. Humans have not visited the moon. There are many physcial impossibilities why like the Van Allen Radiation belt, re-entry problem, massive solar radiation etc. NASA and all other space agencies had to invent new physics to explain their trips to space (hypersonic space travel). This is all non-science but they have billions of dollars invested in them from governments to keep up the lie.

We do not need to look at propaganda machines in order to determine humans are great at lieing which FFG seems to be in that camp (single faction lies). However, there are companies that create complex games and manage balance properly like Valve and Dota 2. FFG defenders will ignore the game systems that do it right and attack those of us that are informed. Just like people who believe humans have gone to the moon dispite the physical impossibilities (ignorance) and those people will support the governments propaganda attacking people the same way those of us here on the forums are attacked for pointing out the massive issues with FFG.

13 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The space race was pure propaganda. Humans have not visited the moon. There are many physcial impossibilities why like the Van Allen Radiation belt, re-entry problem, massive solar radiation etc. NASA and all other space agencies had to invent new physics to explain their trips to space (hypersonic space travel). This is all non-science but they have billions of dollars invested in them from governments to keep up the lie.

We do not need to look at propaganda machines in order to determine humans are great at lieing which FFG seems to be in that camp (single faction lies). However, there are companies that create complex games and manage balance properly like Valve and Dota 2. FFG defenders will ignore the game systems that do it right and attack those of us that are informed. Just like people who believe humans have gone to the moon dispite the physical impossibilities (ignorance) and those people will support the governments propaganda attacking people the same way those of us here on the forums are attacked for pointing out the massive issues with FFG.

This explains so much about Lace's posts.

17 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The space race was pure propaganda. Humans have not visited the moon. There are many physcial impossibilities why like the Van Allen Radiation belt, re-entry problem, massive solar radiation etc. NASA and all other space agencies had to invent new physics to explain their trips to space (hypersonic space travel). This is all non-science but they have billions of dollars invested in them from governments to keep up the lie.

We do not need to look at propaganda machines in order to determine humans are great at lieing which FFG seems to be in that camp (single faction lies). However, there are companies that create complex games and manage balance properly like Valve and Dota 2. FFG defenders will ignore the game systems that do it right and attack those of us that are informed. Just like people who believe humans have gone to the moon dispite the physical impossibilities (ignorance) and those people will support the governments propaganda attacking people the same way those of us here on the forums are attacked for pointing out the massive issues with FFG.

only the Compnor was able to pack a such toll of nonsense in his propaganda. Do you made an intern with Armand Isard?

My job is usually connected con material still used in that era of astronautical progress. Many relics out there are still in stable orbit (the Vela Satellites just to name one, and the instruments left on the moon which are CONTINUOUSLY used since the '60). Those who live up to this cospiracy theory are just very misinformed non cultured ... people.

10 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

However, there are companies that create complex games and manage balance properly like Valve and Dota 2.

One needs to look at the business model of Dota 2 and their main competitor League of Legends to understand why we'll never see great balance in Extended (but we might in Hyperspace): when you sell in-game components, some imbalance is good for business.

In Dota 2, all the heroes are available from the get-go, there is no mechanical advantage to be gained by either grinding or paying more. As such, more balance directly translates into a better game.

In League of Legends however, you need to grind or buy additional champions. Having these additional champions be better actively helps Riot make more money by selling Riot points and boosts, as more people will want them. I haven't played LOL in a while, but AFAIK they still release OP champions only to tone them down soon after, so more people are encouraged to buy them outright.

FFG is in the same boat: their main source of income is selling ships. This means that, in order to maximize their income, these ships need to be desirable to as many people as possible. One way is power creep: make the ships or the cards in the pack really strong, so they're a no brainer purchase if you want to compete (what they did in 1.0). Another is ship rotation (what they might do in Hyperspace): keep the tournament legal ship pool full of new releases, so you need to buy them if you want to compete.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

This explains so much about Lace's posts.

Shut it and let him keep going. I'm almost have Conspiracy Bingo.

47 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The space race was pure propaganda. Humans have not visited the moon.

I knew it! I mean, we know from the Earth's example that the Moon is flat, right? It was so amateurish to show curvature of the Moon. Like nobody would put two and two together. Lace, how do you think they screwed such a simple thing up? (Other than, you know, "governmental agency," which of course.)

52 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The space race was pure propaganda...<REDACTED>

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The space race was pure propaganda. Humans have not visited the moon. There are many physcial impossibilities why like the Van Allen Radiation belt, re-entry problem, massive solar radiation etc. NASA and all other space agencies had to invent new physics to explain their trips to space (hypersonic space travel). This is all non-science but they have billions of dollars invested in them from governments to keep up the lie.

That's just what the lizard people want you to think!

57 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

FFG is in the same boat: their main source of income is selling ships. This means that, in order to maximize their income, these ships need to be desirable to as many people as possible. One way is power creep: make the ships or the cards in the pack really strong, so they're a no brainer purchase if you want to compete (what they did in 1.0). Another is ship rotation (what they might do in Hyperspace): keep the tournament legal ship pool full of new releases, so you need to buy them if you want to compete.

This runs the risk of chasing off new players who don't want to spend on every single release in order to be competitive. The pool of players is reduced to "whales", who buy multiples of everything, and reduces the popularity of the game. 40k got hit by this when, appropriately enough, a game named X-Wing Miniatures started eating their lunch with it's lower barrier of entry.