I’m trying to figure out clarification for the rules because one of my players likes to min max heavy. We’re about 680 XP and one of my players have a force rating of 4 and saw the ebb and flow tree and wanted to use it.

The player has the basic and the range and 1st middle control along with the Strength advantage upgrade. (I should also add that the player is currently a dark side user)

Now from my understanding of this the user is allowed to roll flow with any skill check and can use the force pips with a 1:1 ratio of getting advantages since the player has a FR of 4 he’s routinely getting a minimum of 4 pips which would translate to an extra 4 advantages on top of what he rolls for the skill, am I interpreting this correctly? And does the skill check also work for combat checks as well?

and for future note when he gets the one that allows you to get success it’s the same idea right?

The long text indicates that the Force user may not activated this multiple times. That is the balancing factor on Ebb & Flow is that most of it's abilities are limited to one use.

With Strength upgrade, you can increase these to 2 per round but that's about it.

The Basic power for Ebb/Flow only allows for recovering or inflicting strain. You need specific upgrades to get advantages or successes, and additional control upgrades to activate them multiple times. Also note that the Success/Advantage control talents add the success or advantage to the next skill check, not the current one.

It is not specifically stated in the talent descriptions, but the spirit of this power is that it is to be used in structured time (e.g. within combat or other situations where initiative matters), not on any and all skill checks.

Finally remember: YOU are the GM, and have the right to disallow any use of this power if you deem it is being used inappropriately. Make sure you read the power (including the long text descriptions, not just the paraphrased wording in the tree) fully and that you understand how it works.

Suppose there is a niman disciple/ascetic with the empty soul and draw closer talents. Normally empty soul would not apply to his draw closer lightsaber attacks because it's a talent not a power but could you use the ebb-flow basic power on the draw closer attack to get iron soul to work on draw closer attacks?

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Suppose there is a niman disciple/ascetic with the empty soul and draw closer talents. Normally empty soul would not apply to his draw closer lightsaber attacks because it's a talent not a power but could you use the ebb-flow basic power on the draw closer attack to get iron soul to work on draw closer attacks?

According to DOH, Empty Soul can be used "whenever her makes a Force Power check" so yes the three abilities should work with each other.

On 12/27/2018 at 11:31 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Suppose there is a niman disciple/ascetic with the empty soul and draw closer talents. Normally empty soul would not apply to his draw closer lightsaber attacks because it's a talent not a power but could you use the ebb-flow basic power on the draw closer attack to get iron soul to work on draw closer attacks?

You can only use your force die "once" on a check, so Ebb/Flow does not work on Draw Closer, as its already a Force check. Since the whole thing is a Force Talent - not a Force Power - I don't know if Iron Soul would work. However, reading through the Force & Destiny core book, there's this passage on page 282: "Characters may use Force talents if their current Force rating is 0 due to committing O; however, many Force talents require characters to commit O or make Force power checks, which are based on the character’s current Force rating." Now, as I understand this passage, a talent like Draw Closer already qualifies as a Force Power activation anyway. If the Iron Soul talent specifically states only powers, not talents, can activate it, though, you're out of luck. I don't have the book with me that Iron Soul is in at the moment.

31 minutes ago, Silim said:

You can only use your force die "once" on a check, so Ebb/Flow does not work on Draw Closer, as its already a Force check. Since the whole thing is a Force Talent - not a Force Power - I don't know if Iron Soul would work. However, reading through the Force & Destiny core book, there's this passage on page 282: "Characters may use Force talents if their current Force rating is 0 due to committing O; however, many Force talents require characters to commit O or make Force power checks, which are based on the character’s current Force rating." Now, as I understand this passage, a talent like Draw Closer already qualifies as a Force Power activation anyway. If the Iron Soul talent specifically states only powers, not talents, can activate it, though, you're out of luck. I don't have the book with me that Iron Soul is in at the moment.

Your reasoning is not correct, I have it from sam Stewart (regarding enhance brawl and a steel hand adept talent) that while you can't double up you can share force dice between a force power and force talent

That's a new ruling, then. If you go with that, then I suppose sure, you can use Ebb/Flow on Draw Closer to assure that you can use Iron Soul, as long as you have at least 1 Force die for both the power and the talent. However, simply because of how the core rules are worded, I most likely wouldn't require someone to use Ebb/Flow to combine Draw Closer with Iron Soul to begin with, as its already a Force Power check that's combined with a Lightsaber check (any time you roll force die its a Force Power roll).

Rules Question:
Hi Assuming a warrior:steel-hand-adept with the the enhance force power with the use with the brawl skill upgrade. can you uses enhance force power with the acklay's scything strike talent? i.e. would you get to add your force dice to the roll while also having pierce equal to your force dice (minus any that are committed of course)? if you also have the warrior;s "Unmatched ferocity" signature ability attached to steel hand adept and the change skill brawl upgrade to unmatched devastation, can you use the enhance power's brawl upgrade to add force dice to the brawl checks associated with unmatched ferocity to increase your odds of triggering subsequent attacks? Thanks for your time.

Hello Keith,

That is correct.

Hope that helps!

Sam Gregor-Stewart

RPG Department Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

I think you're reading far more into that than there actually is Elias.

Acklay's Scything Strike is a passive effect where the player isn't rolling their Force dice. So it's a very different scenario than trying to use Ebb/Flow (active rolling of Force dice) with something like Draw Closer (also an active rolling of Force dice), which itself is similar to the scenario of using Overwhelm Emotions talent and the Influence control upgrade to add Force dice to social checks in the same roll, something that was shot down as not rules legal during the early days of EotE.

Put in a question to ask for clarification from the devs, I think ebb/flow is supposed to be used all the time so the ruling may have changed.

On 12/29/2018 at 9:08 AM, Silim said:

That's a new ruling, then. If you go with that, then I suppose sure, you can use Ebb/Flow on Draw Closer to assure that you can use Iron Soul, as long as you have at least 1 Force die for both the power and the talent. However, simply because of how the core rules are worded, I most likely wouldn't require someone to use Ebb/Flow to combine Draw Closer with Iron Soul to begin with, as its already a Force Power check that's combined with a Lightsaber check (any time you roll force die its a Force Power roll).

You cannot use Ebb/Flow with Draw Closer (or any other power or talent that already has you rolling your Forcepool).

3 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

You cannot use Ebb/Flow with Draw Closer (or any other power or talent that already has you rolling your Forcepool).

If you had read more than just one part of my second post you might've realized that that's my impression as well.

On 12/30/2018 at 10:10 AM, EliasWindrider said:

Put in a question to ask for clarification from the devs, I think ebb/flow is supposed to be used all the time so the ruling may have changed.

I haven't gotten an answer to that question (unmatched ferocity and ebb/flow) yet but here's a related question that just got answered

Rules Question:
Suppose a niman disciple with draw closer has ebb/flow Can they be used on the same roll? I know you wouldn't get to add the force dice twice (because it's far to abusable) but could they share dice between the power and talent, for example if they have a white pip that they don't need to hit the target can they use it to get a strain (or 2 depending on upgrades) back?

Hello Keith,

You may, but you would not add the Force dice twice (as you noted).

Hope this helps!

6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I haven't gotten an answer to that question (unmatched ferocity and ebb/flow) yet but here's a related question that just got answered

Rules Question:
Suppose a niman disciple with draw closer has ebb/flow Can they be used on the same roll? I know you wouldn't get to add the force dice twice (because it's far to abusable) but could they share dice between the power and talent, for example if they have a white pip that they don't need to hit the target can they use it to get a strain (or 2 depending on upgrades) back?

Hello Keith,

You may, but you would not add the Force dice twice (as you noted).

Hope this helps!

Sam Gregor-Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

Nice so sounds like if you have multiple force effects (Talents/Powers) that can be applied to a roll they function by just increasing the number of ways you can spend your force pips on the roll.