27 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I'm betting you'd be pissed if FFG announced they were "thinking" about 2.0 standard, stopped making product, then said nothing for a year.

Despite the fact that most still have a game to play, there is all kinds of whining on these boards about Hyperspace (I can't play with my ships, sniff, sniff) while an entire group of players sits in the corner, ignored.

Well we can, we will just be paying 1st edition X-wing. Which is going to require a few soft-bans to get epic into play.

I would like epic 2.0 to be wave 4, but I have precisely zero faith in it being the case.

Epic was always a sideshow to FFG, and the c-roc sales didn’t exactly instill confidence that those of us who would play epic are enough to buy the product without the “pay wall” upgrades (anecdotal alone, I have no insight into actual figures but when I see them going for super sale before 2.0 announcement and not on Black Friday I begin to worry).

Now, ffg promised it would be back and better... but they also said you wouldn’t need to buy cross faction to get upgrades. (Moldy crow, agile gunner, and the new Force talents are all glaring back at them). I’m sure they’ll get around to it.... but I’m not sure it’ll matter when they do.

THAT SAID..... making republic epic ships would be a solid way to make me buy into the Clone Wars factions in 2.0.

On 12/24/2018 at 1:45 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I'm betting most people would be pissed if FFG announced they were "thinking" about 2.0 standard, stopped making product, then said nothing for a year.

Despite the fact that many still have a game to play, there is plenty of whining on these boards about Hyperspace (I can't play with all my ships) while an entire group of players sits in the corner, completely unable to play with their ships as a 2.0 product.

Looks like I struck a nerve there. OK so Epic was never all that well supported in 1st ed. There are to date 5 Epic products that were produced over the course of 6-ish years, and all of them came out very slowly, months if not years after the previous entry in this very niche format. The only exception to that is the first two epic ships that launched a month apart form each-other, but note that they also launched over a year after the game itself. For the longest time, the Rebellion was the only faction with Epic ships. Then of course there's the fact that Scum had to wait practically to the end of the game for their first huge ship. When you consider that, is it really at all surprising that we don't have epic at launch?

FFG hasn't said anything about Epic during the first 4 months of 2nd ed because it's not needed so quickly after the relaunch. After all, we now have 4 new factions that need to not only be introduced, but built up and established into something that can compete with the amount of variety on display in the original 3. New factions are going to be much more desirable for the developer to release than epic, mainly because epic wont draw in people that don't play X-wing, but Jedi starfighters and Vulture droids might. It's a calculated decision, that yes does prioritize the games standard 200 point formats, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It may in fact be the best move to draw in new players and keep the game profitable. If it's not profitable, you sure wont see the developer try to sell massive $100 ships, it just wouldn't be feasible.

That said, I have no doubt that it will return eventually and that is the operative word here. Epic will always be on the back burner, and as someone who enjoys and tries to play Epic whenever they can, I'm just fine with that. Epic isn't dead, it's future is just unclear right now. Lots of us, myself included are hoping for some kind of epic conversion kit for our old ships, and assume they will come once the format is ready for the new edition. Development and testing takes time after all. If you really have an itch to play epic though, you can house rule your big ships into 2nd ed, or simply continue to play 1st ed. No one has an issue with you doing that. Not other players, and not the devs. If we get to the day after X-mas next year I might start to get concerned about Epic, but for now, silence has been the norm for news on this format, and I see no reason to expect anything different.

1 hour ago, Hippie Moosen said:

Looks like I struck a nerve there.

Yep.

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OK so Epic was never all that well supported in 1st ed. There are to date 5 Epic products that were produced over the course of 6-ish years, and all of them came out very slowly, months if not years after the previous entry in this very niche format.

And this is basically what annoyed me about Epic in 1.0. Moreover, IMHO, Epic wouldn't be a "niche format" if FFG didn't treat it like ****.

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FFG hasn't said anything about Epic during the first 4 months of 2nd ed because it's not needed so quickly after the relaunch .

Says you. I only play Epic. My XWM world is dead.

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It's a calculated decision, that yes does prioritize the games standard 200 point formats, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Again, great for you, **** for me. And It goes back to my gripes about Epic 1.0, which is that FFG never prioritizes ANYTHING but Standard formats.

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Epic isn't dead, it's future is just unclear right now. Lots of us, myself included are hoping for some kind of epic conversion kit for our old ships, and assume they will come once the format is ready for the new edition. Development and testing takes time after all. If you really have an itch to play epic though, you can house rule your big ships into 2nd ed, or simply continue to play 1st ed. No one has an issue with you doing that. Not other players, and not the devs. If we get to the day after X-mas next year I might start to get concerned about Epic, but for now, silence has been the norm for news on this format, and I see no reason to expect anything different.

Yeah, all that is true. Just great.

OTOH, when 1.0 was imploding, I really hoped that FFG would be encouraged to find NEW ways to make X-Wing interesting: missions, scenarios, a bigger emphasis on Epic, whatever.

Instead, we got a can of kerosene and a match.

So, some of the things that I had hoped for are now waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy behind the unlikely rerelease of Epic any time soon, which probably equates to "really damned unlikely by the time we lose the license."

Or, worse still, a subtle acknowledgement that FFG can't/won't think outside the box that is 200 points.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, some of the things that I had hoped for are now waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy behind the unlikely rerelease of Epic any time soon, which probably equates to "really damned unlikely by the time we lose the license."

Or, worse still, a subtle acknowledgement that FFG can't/won't think outside the box that is 200 points.

I have a sinking feeling this is exactly what will happen. A whole lot of standard 200 point and not much else.

On 12/22/2018 at 8:25 PM, Cloaker said:

Epic brings into it a whole world of complexity that they're not near yet. They need to get this 7 faction, each their own identity thing, right. There's a lot of nip and tuck to do over the next year. If I was going to win money on it, I'd figure past the one year anniversary of second edition launch in time for the 2019 holiday season.

But I'd rather they wait as long as needed to get it right. Epic is the next frontier if they can manage it correctly. Next Gen x-wing, with more ships and theme then what we get in 200/6. My preference is a world's event atmosphere that does justice to the word, Epic. Plus, there's money to be made if they treat it proper. We all win.

a lot of players are out in the cold right now without epic though. tens of thousands of players bought epic shipsand cant use them in 2.0 at all, and many of us are pissed. so releasing new factions before converting existing collections is bull as far as im concerned. plus with many of us waiting to convert until epic is announced, there are players who are simply leaving x-wing with each month they dont announce epic. I'd like to be able play all the ships FFG sold me in their game if I convert, you know? that seems more important than dumb tournaments

58 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

a lot of players are out in the cold right now without epic though. tens of thousands of players bought epic shipsand cant use them in 2.0 at all, and many of us are pissed. so releasing new factions before converting existing collections is bull as far as im concerned. plus with many of us waiting to convert until epic is announced, there are players who are simply leaving x-wing with each month they dont announce epic. I'd like to be able play all the ships FFG sold me in their game if I convert, you know? that seems more important than dumb tournaments

I own three epic ships myself and will say I enjoyed epic immensely for a time. However, it's in a weird place with the current rule set, especially with half point on all ships. That's alot of counting. It's alot of setup. A lot of clean up. A moderate 1.0 g ame can run 4 hours minimum easily and we've had games go a long as 6 when not rushing and breaking for drinks and food. Running timed matches defeats the purpose somewhat and leaves everyone a shade unfulfilled at times. And ordnance got so out of control at the end it was ridiculous.

I know it's not popular opinion, but I'd love to see FFG allow huge ships as obstacles that only cost you your action if you overlap. No damage or anything. At least then we could use our epic ships in the meanwhile.

Epic rewards lists with higher ship count in many cases. And that's the antithesis of what FFG is trying to achieve in bringing back iconic characters and ships. Watching your favorite pilots burn down in a single turn isn't fun.

How will it be brought back? I'm no expert, but I'd say however it returns, two things need to be in play if it is going to be successful long term;

1) It needs to be thematically objective based, not a straight dogfight. This will allow games to be played more quickly to a decisive conclusion that avoids the chore of calculating points ship by ship, and will invite a different type of strategy that keeps it seperate from traditional 200/6.

2) For ease of play and to prevent ruleset breaking combo brain frying lists, allow only quick build ships for all non-huge ships. Quick builds already are unique in how they allow new combinations that aren't allowed in the standard game, and it will also make it easier for new players to jump in without dealing with an overwhelming mess of cards. The creativity for list building will shift exclusively and rightfully to the huge ships, which will give Epic its own flavor. Epic points for the large ships still a factor, with 16 threat budget points for ships and maybe 100 points for decking out your epic ship.

I dread any attempt to just cut and paste 200/6 game design and lazily just amplify it it. That would be disastrous.. Again, I prefer they take their time and solicit the best minds in the game to do it right. The sky's the limit if they nail this.

Just my one quarter portion of opinion.

On 12/22/2018 at 8:25 PM, Cloaker said:

Epic brings into it a whole world of complexity that they're not near yet. They need to get this 7 faction, each their own identity thing, right. There's a lot of nip and tuck to do over the next year.

Exactly. And, near the tail end of 1.0 they redid the Epic Rules to require each player to bring at least one Epic Ship in an Epic List, and this was very well-received by fans of the format and embraced as a positive change. So, do they scrap that requirement in the 2.0 Epic? There will be four factions with no Epic Ships. Or, do they keep that requirement and somehow either churn out four new Epic Ships at the same time (terrible idea) or somehow allow the existing Epic Ships to somehow be stop-gaps for the other factions? The CIS having a Gozanti would be on-screen appropriate, and the Republic and Resistance both make use of the Tantive IV . That would only leave the First Order as the odd duck with no canon use of any of the existing Epic Ships...

Either way, these sorts of logistical hurdles seem like it'll put an eventual Epic 2.0 (if it ever happens) way behind standard releases to give more ships to the four new factions and to get the rest of the existing three factions' lineups converted into 2.0 Expansion Packs.

I honestly wouldn't expect any official support for Epic until probably at least Q2 of 2020 or later.

6 hours ago, Cloaker said:

It's alot of setup. A lot of clean up.

1) It needs to be thematically objective based, not a straight dogfight. This will allow games to be played more quickly to a decisive conclusion that avoids the chore of calculating points ship by ship, and will invite a different type of strategy that keeps it seperate from traditional 200/6.

2) For ease of play and to prevent ruleset breaking combo brain frying lists, allow only quick build ships for all non-huge ships.

It always was a lot of set up and tear down. That’s hardly news.

I highly doubt that ffg would ever alter the rules to directly allow huge ships on standard play as obstacles, there is nothing preventing us Filthy Casuals from doing it ourselves for the fun of it. Even in 1.0 when it was “allowed” it never really was done because it took up all your rocks and was “lowest tier format only”. I’d just up and do it next time you want to with some friends.

The problem with quick builds in epic is that’s still a lot of cards. Most quick builds have multiple upgrades and honestly, aside from the days of cheap astromech + IA on xwings for the health I didn’t like running tons of stuff on anything but the epic ship. I would rather have the flexibility in kitting my stuff how I see fit for an epic game, however I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a quick build format option.

I am all for the objective based win conditions, much like the ones Star Wars Legion incorporates. However, counting will always be important because MoV is the tie breaker in games like Legion (if we both get half the objectives at game end, now what?)

8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

I'd like to be able play all the ships FFG sold me in their game if I convert, you know? that seems more important than dumb tournaments

Trouble is, epic is the loud minority. Most of the people who bought them were tournament players accepting a paywall to get at Palps or something else.

I really want epic 2.0 as well, but tournaments make up much more of the player base in the sense that most FLGS are running tournaments, even if it’s casually and not with meta gamers.

6 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Exactly. And, near the tail end of 1.0 they redid the Epic Rules to require each player to bring at least one Epic Ship in an Epic List, and this was very well-received by fans of the format and embraced as a positive change. So, do they scrap that requirement in the 2.0 Epic? There will be four factions with no Epic Ships.

Most everyone who would be playing epic already has epic ships and has already bought into at least one of the original factions. Bringing out epic conversion materials and leaving the requirement to have a huge ship would be fine. Scum was left out of epic for a while; these other new kids can wait a bit until later too. If I were ffg, I’d try to target getting epic 2.0 off the ground with the least amount of extra dev required (conversion contents) first, and then start getting stuff for clone wars onboarded to epic. Literally nobody will be flying only Resistance or only First Order, so they can easily fit in later after we get other established factions running. Additionally, there is no canon material for the FO that is of sufficient size for epic. It’s the Raider problem all over again.

FFG said that epic would be back.... the question is will it be back in time that it matters to the player base who would/does play it. I’ve largely moved on to Legion for my “big” fixes, but would be drawn back if epic was going to get some love too since they scratch different itches.

I, for one, am hoping they work epic ships and objectives into the Organized Play scene!

I would love to see an Epic Conversion kit come out asap. Homebrew rules don't get as much traction around my local area. Give us something official and we'll start seeing the big ships back on the table.

OK, so here's an interesting hypothetical: FFG will wait for some Clone Wars stuff to get played with, then bring us 2.0 Epic rules with two new Epic ships for Clone Wars factions. This will both reintroduce Epic and bring the new factions into the fold in one fell swoop. That would be the smart way to do it. It would also spark a new buying spree for the Clone Wars ships already introduced as players begin building their Clone Wars squadrons. This could be followed with more Epic releases at intervals to let us acclimate to new ships, then spur new purchases of those same ships again. There needs to be some synergy between the regular ships released and the Epic ships released afterwards. This could be done with systems or commanders or whatever. I've focused on Clone Wars here because the new stuff doesn't seem to have much in the way of Epic scale vessels, though the Resistance cartoon may change that as time goes on.

The truly speculative part is whether or not they will make Epic truly mission based and whether it will be made more "mainstream". This is, of course, advisable, as it would make the purchase of large expensive models more palpable. Give us a reason to use them and we'll buy them for sure.

I have faith in 2.0 Epic. I bet we will get conversion Kits in the middle of 2019. And also - My predictions are: Republic corvett to establish new factions or Ressistance to sell it with Ep9 hype wave.

And by the example of Armada's SSD it would be nice to get 2 tyes of cards for epic - one of them playable only in Epic format and some of them allowed in Standard or even Hyperspace. That would be fun to see them on tournament's tables in light versions and full-power in Epic Play.

On 12/23/2018 at 7:37 PM, Darth Meanie said:

I think that's going to happen sooner rather than later. Sure, they've got factions to fill out, but my guess is that things are going to very conservatively designed, and "new" ships are going to be repeated design space from a different faction.

Also, the Hyperspace format means that, while some factions may need to be fleshed out a bit, they don't need to worry as much about "catching up" to the older factions.

10 hours ago, Cloaker said:

I own three epic ships myself and will say I enjoyed epic immensely for a time. However, it's in a weird place with the current rule set, especially with half point on all ships. That's alot of counting. It's alot of setup. A lot of clean up. A moderate 1.0 g ame can run 4 hours minimum easily and we've had games go a long as 6 when not rushing and breaking for drinks and food. Running timed matches defeats the purpose somewhat and leaves everyone a shade unfulfilled at times. And ordnance got so out of control at the end it was ridiculous.

Well, this is exactly what I like about Epic. One night, one game.

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Epic rewards lists with higher ship count in many cases. And that's the antithesis of what FFG is trying to achieve in bringing back iconic characters and ships. Watching your favorite pilots burn down in a single turn isn't fun.

I dread any attempt to just cut and paste 200/6 game design and lazily just amplify it. That would be disastrous.. Again, I prefer they take their time and solicit the best minds in the game to do it right. The sky's the limit if they nail this.

1) It needs to be thematically objective based, not a straight dogfight. This will allow games to be played more quickly to a decisive conclusion that avoids the chore of calculating points ship by ship, and will invite a different type of strategy that keeps it seperate from traditional 200/6.

Agreed. Epic should seem like XWM, but actually be mostly it's own game variant.

I never play an Epic battle to the last dead pilot; at some point one side concedes and/or the mission is finished, and we pack up.

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2) For ease of play and to prevent ruleset breaking combo brain frying lists, allow only quick build ships for all non-huge ships. Quick builds already are unique in how they allow new combinations that aren't allowed in the standard game, and it will also make it easier for new players to jump in without dealing with an overwhelming mess of cards. The creativity for list building will shift exclusively and rightfully to the huge ships, which will give Epic its own flavor. Epic points for the large ships still a factor, with 16 threat budget points for ships and maybe 100 points for decking out your epic ship.

I would hate this. I still want to list-build, and dumbing Epic down to QB-only would really piss me off. Epic is where generics should shine, as units/squadrons, and your favorite pilots/aces should be the supporting role pieces.

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I really want epic 2.0 as well, but tournaments make up much more of the player base in the sense that most FLGS are running tournaments, even if it’s casually and not with meta gamers.

Oh, I've heard tell that 95% of players are casual.

1 hour ago, kris40k said:

I would love to see an Epic Conversion kit come out asap. Homebrew rules don't get as much traction around my local area. Give us something official and we'll start seeing the big ships back on the table.

This. This is why the ever-present "you can just DIY" argument is useless.

8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Also, the Hyperspace format means that, while some factions may need to be fleshed out a bit, they don't need to worry as much about "catching up" to the older factions.

IMHO, Hyperspace is what FFG wants everyone to do. And they will force you to do it by failing to support Extended, just like they fail to support Epic. They just had to pretend Extended would be a thing to prevent wholesale mutiny.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Oh, I've heard tell that 95% of players are casual.

IMHO, Hyperspace is what FFG wants everyone to do. And they will force you to do it by failing to support Extended, just like they fail to support Epic. They just had to pretend Extended would be a thing to prevent wholesale mutiny.

I said casually. Every game store I’ve ever come across runs their events like a tournament. That doesn’t mean games aren’t played casually. It just means it’s the format that is played.

I do agree with you on your other point - it feels like ffg is working on releasing itself from extended in the same way it failed to support epic because it wants to guide us towards their “curated” format where they can solve the balance problems they create by magically deleting things.

8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Running timed matches defeats the purpose somewhat and leaves everyone a shade unfulfilled at times.

8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Agreed. Epic should seem like XWM, but actually be mostly it's own game variant.

I never play an Epic battle to the last dead pilot; at some point one side concedes and/or the mission is finished, and we pack up. 

Now, this may come because of my experience playing other mini games which are limited by time or number of turns, but you should almost* always set a reasonable time limit for games. In my experience, you will likely get more games in down at the local shop if your opponent knows they can get a game in and still make it home in time to not piss off their SO. I know if I showed up at the FLGS and someone said, "we're playing until the owner kicks us out!" I would nope outta that, but if someone said "120min limit", I could commit to that game.

I do think that there should be some sort of objective based play for Epic as well. Hopefully, FFG will look at the fan made objective rules put out for 1E, as well as their own Armada stuff, and come out with something for Epic games for 2E.

*back when I was single I had played some games of 40k even before the Apocalypse rules where we threw huge armies and play areas that took up most of the space in a room and took lunch breaks and played all day, but those were rare events.

2 hours ago, kris40k said:

if your opponent knows they can get a game in and still make it home in time to not piss off their SO.

Luckily, my Superior Officer knows it's my night of shore leave with the boys, so if I roll in late then only rule is "be quiet coming to bed."

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I do think that there should be some sort of objective based play for Epic as well.

I would be fine if Epic actually became synonymous with Mission-Based-Play, officially speaking*.

It is way easier to say "screw it, let's just have a really big brawl" than the other way around.

*That could actually be the way to sell the Huge ships. Instead of packing them with a ship fix and a tiny mission, pack then with a significant campaign and playable components (mines, 3-D asteroids, ion clouds, space slugs, etc.}.

55 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

*That could actually be the way to sell the Huge ships. Instead of packing them with a ship fix and a tiny mission, pack then with a significant campaign and playable components (mines, 3-D asteroids, ion clouds, space slugs, etc.}.

Careful now - only if they’re going to put this stuff into conversion boxes for the old huge models too.

But man, that would be awesome. I’d be all for that.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

Careful now - only if they’re going to put this stuff into conversion boxes for the old huge models too.

But man, that would be awesome. I’d be all for that.

Right.

New.

New huge ships.

We definitely need a Conversion kit with extra generic pilot stuff for all of our under-dialed generics.

15 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

There will be four factions with no Epic Ships.

Yeah, this has always been a thing, though. Scum had just barely gone Epic by the time it all caved in.

Republic is pretty easy to get into the fold: Consular Corvette. The rest? They are going to have to get creative.

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somehow allow the existing Epic Ships to somehow be stop-gaps for the other factions?

Personally, I think the best idea would be to produce a new ship that is sufficiently generic that anyone might use it.

The Corellian Gunship and Action Transport come to mind, despite being often reviled for aesthetic reasons. In truth, I bet the Corellian Corvette would also do.

Or, FFG makes one up. An armored transport that is so ubiquitous that you might see it in any era, under any flag.

I would love if they created some sort of Mon Cal Corvette, aesthetic wise. That could be a nice "good guy" ship that crosses all eras.

A Mon-Cal ship made up by FFG for the game would be nice, if they can't find an existing canon source. I would love to see something with that aesthetic on the board for maybe the Resistance.

I'm not really sure about a generic huge, they somewhat did that with the Gozonti-class already and I don't know if we want to continue down that path. They could use it again for the Clone Wars era factions easily enough.

23 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I'm not really sure about a generic huge,

Via the lore, this was used by Republic, Empire, Rebels, and Scum.

Not too hard to think the CiS had one, and it shows up in a novel about Finn, so still active in the sequels:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CSS-1_Corellian_Star_Shuttle

Plus, at 80 meters, it is a single-card Epic, which is probably more versatile in list-building.

26 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I'm not really sure about a generic huge, they somewhat did that with the Gozonti-class already and I don't know if we want to continue down that path. They could use it again for the Clone Wars era factions easily enough.

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Via the lore, this was used by Republic, Empire, Rebels, and Scum.

Not too hard to think the CiS had one:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CSS-1_Corellian_Star_Shuttle

According to the same Lore the Gozanti was used by basically everyone OT and earlier. It sadly seems to be despised for that very thing from what I've seen. Too generic I guess.

6 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

According to the same Lore the Gozanti was used by basically everyone OT and earlier. It sadly seems to be despised for that very thing from what I've seen. Too generic I guess.

I dunno. The fact that it has so many configurations means each faction can have it, and they don't even have to look the same. We're still "missing" this one:

I mean, with seven factions, you are going to need to do something . It would take FFG 3 decades to release 14 Huge ships under the 1.0 roll-out system.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I dunno. The fact that it has so many configurations means each faction can have it, and they don't even have to look the same. We're still "missing" this one:

I mean, with seven factions, you are going to need to do something . It would take FFG 3 decades to release 14 Huge ships under the 1.0 roll-out system.

I actually prefer that variant aesthetically over the Imp knockoff and the C-ROC. It has the feel of a Utilitarian, get the job done and to **** with being pretty, work truck where the Imp feel's like they were trying to make it look like a Star Destroyer and the C-ROC is closer to a fancy Ubrikkian product in looks than a CEC one by a long shot. I guess they wanted to make it look "Hutt"...