Hello All

I am just going to come right out and say this. I have a real problem with people who DO NOT Shake, rattle, and roll their dice. Oh, they might shake the dice a little, but then they will slowly, and carefully pour out their dice, oftentimes looking right at them in the palm of their hand, as they slowly, and carefully pour out their dice. I'm sorry, I don't mean to hurt feelings, but jeez man, that is cheating. They are trying to influence to outcome of the dice roll, and from what I understand, rolling dice or "casting lots" as the ancients used to say, was all about chance. Heck listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan's version of "Tin Pan Alley", it has a verse that says " somebody killed a crap shooter because he didn't shake, rattle, and roll!" Basically, in certain circles of our society, trying to pull crud like that will get you in a lot of trouble. So why do we tolorate this kind of behavior. Heck, 9 times out of 10 it's grown @$$ adults, who should know better, doing this! What are your personal feelings on the matter, and how is it handled in your local meta?

IN my home group when i run ADND (2nd edition), i have to see the dice actually roll, and see the result. In some games i played, a dm has you throw them into a specific box everyone uses to roll.

Perhaps you could put in a 'house rule' that everyone uses the same dice tower?

I do like that idea, that or at least a dice cup. Something to take the possibility of control over the dice out of the equation. Great suggestion though, thank you.

Thanks. I know one of my first conventions i went to, the DM for our 8 hr adnd table handed out Yazzee dice cups to use for when rolling. If it didn't roll out of the cup, it didn't count. AND we got to keep the cups as a prize..

I got a lot of complaints and accusations when I started playing X-wing. I had never really played any competitive games before so had never been exposed to these kinds of attempts at cheating. And tbh it was a big turnoff. I kept playing, but some new folks probably won’t if you assume everyone who gently rolls their dice is trying to cheat you.

On 12/22/2018 at 4:14 PM, KburgBob said:

Hello All

I am just going to come right out and say this. I have a real problem with people who DO NOT Shake, rattle, and roll their dice. Oh, they might shake the dice a little, but then they will slowly, and carefully pour out their dice, oftentimes looking right at them in the palm of their hand, as they slowly, and carefully pour out their dice. I'm sorry, I don't mean to hurt feelings, but jeez man, that is cheating. They are trying to influence to outcome of the dice roll, and from what I understand, rolling dice or "casting lots" as the ancients used to say, was all about chance. Heck listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan's version of "Tin Pan Alley", it has a verse that says " somebody killed a crap shooter because he didn't shake, rattle, and roll!" Basically, in certain circles of our society, trying to pull crud like that will get you in a lot of trouble. So why do we tolorate this kind of behavior. Heck, 9 times out of 10 it's grown @$$ adults, who should know better, doing this! What are your personal feelings on the matter, and how is it handled in your local meta?

Why does it get tolerated? Speaking up about it or even just trying to talk about it exists in a weird place. No one wants to be "that guy." You're not meant to get "mad" about the dice. People don't like to be called cheaters or like to call people cheaters. You're supposed to "fly casual."

As noted often folks don't think they're trying to cheat or think that they're acting within the rules and spirit of the game. Your complaints are whining that they are "skilled" at rolling the dice. There's this idea that you're being a bad sport about your opponent getting good rolls even if they've just blatantly attempted to lay the dice on the table in what is barely dropping them. They're not "lucky" they're "better" at the game.

I try to take them at their word but they then don't want to use the dice tower after a couple of rolls.

It is a difficult conundrum. I try to lead by example or bring a dice tower and suggest everyone use it. Dice towers also tend to keep the dice from knocking over the ships by these sorts.

I've noticed that myself. TOo many folk who think or actually catch someone cheating, don't want to speak up, because they don't want to be called "That guy"...

Now I just want to point out that the vast majority of the people I play against roll the dice properly. I am not that good, and when I lose to people who are rolling the dice properly, I don't have a problem with it, at least not beyond berating myself for not flying and playing better, oh and for the common salt about the green dice. But when you then play someone, who has been playing the game longer then you have, and they pull stunts like that, it just adds some additional insult to the injury. I really like this game, I like it better with 2.0, but I have to admit, crud like that does affect how I feel about the game, and these types of games in general. I live about 35 miles from the group that I play with. I drive up once a week to play, twice if their is a tournament, and beyond playing against myself, it's really the only time I get to play. So it starts to be kind of a bummer when it happens. I don't know, maybe if I got to play more often it'd bother me less, but after working a rough week and then finally getting to go play and then stuff like this happens... It just kind of sours things.

On 12/25/2018 at 1:23 PM, TasteTheRainbow said:

I got a lot of complaints and accusations when I started playing X-wing. I had never really played any competitive games before so had never been exposed to these kinds of attempts at cheating. And tbh it was a big turnoff. I kept playing, but some new folks probably won’t if you assume everyone who gently rolls their dice is trying to cheat you.

Why do you gently roll dice anyway

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

Why do you gently roll dice anyway

Because they kept flying off the table or bumping ships. Why not? I hadn’t ever played any competitive dice games before, so I had no idea that people would ever do that to try and control a roll.

50 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Because they kept flying off the table or bumping ships. Why not? I hadn’t ever played any competitive dice games before, so I had no idea that people would ever do that to try and control a roll.

I can see that. A good friend of mine had a similar issue back when we played BFG (he's the one who got me into XWM). His dice rolls were almost lethal to anyone within 2 feet of the table with how they rocketed. He's learned the balance point between dropping and craps rolling now so I haven't had to duck in a few years and the rolls are fairly random . As for people who insist on dropping/slow pouring their dice from hand... If there is a way to slant the odds in their favor, some scumbag is going to do it and that is one big way to do so.

That's why using a die tray is a good idea..

6 hours ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Because they kept flying off the table or bumping ships. Why not? I hadn’t ever played any competitive dice games before, so I had no idea that people would ever do that to try and control a roll.

I would say that that's fair enough. There was no intent to cheat from you, so I can understand that, but my complaint was mainly with those that have been playing such games for a while, and should know better.

6 hours ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Because they kept flying off the table or bumping ships. Why not? I hadn’t ever played any competitive dice games before, so I had no idea that people would ever do that to try and control a roll.

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I can see that. A good friend of mine had a similar issue back when we played BFG (he's the one who got me into XWM). His dice rolls were almost lethal to anyone within 2 feet of the table with how they rocketed. He's learned the balance point between dropping and craps rolling now so I haven't had to duck in a few years and the rolls are fairly random . As for people who insist on dropping/slow pouring their dice from hand... If there is a way to slant the odds in their favor, some scumbag is going to do it and that is one big way to do so.

I agree with your sentiment Heimfire, except with calling them Scumbags, simply because we have a faction called SCUM, and they might start doing that, and then saying that it's in keeping with their faction. I'd prefer the title of "dirtbags" or "rat b@$tards", or something cheesy along those lines. We wouldn't want to glorify them. 😉

13 minutes ago, KburgBob said:

We wouldn't want to glorify them

Depending on the person doing so intentionally, calling them anything would be glorifying them... I'd rather they just be tossed, banned and then ignored.

24 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Depending on the person doing so intentionally, calling them anything would be glorifying them... I'd rather they just be tossed, banned and then ignored.

Once again, I agree, mostly, with the spirit of your comment, it just doesn't leave any room for a person to redeem themselves. To learn from their mistakes and make changes. I would say "they just be tossed, banned (possibly for a period of time), and then ignored." And if they are really sorry about what they did and want back in, then they have to convince someone, possibly the person or persons that they cheated, to sponsor, or vouch for them, before they'd be allowed to come back and play. That would separate those who were truly sorry, as opposed to those who were faking, since they would have to swallow their pride and apologize before they'd be allowed back in the group. Oh! And maybe sticking them with a disparaging nickname.

4 minutes ago, KburgBob said:

Once again, I agree, mostly, with the spirit of your comment, it just doesn't leave any room for a person to redeem themselves. To learn from their mistakes and make changes. I would say "they just be tossed, banned (possibly for a period of time), and then ignored." And if they are really sorry about what they did and want back in, then they have to convince someone, possibly the person or persons that they cheated, to sponsor, or vouch for them, before they'd be allowed to come back and play. That would separate those who were truly sorry, as opposed to those who were faking, since they would have to swallow their pride and apologize before they'd be allowed back in the group.

You haven't had the pleasure of dealing with that side of our species much it seems to me. I envy you. Most of the ones that I've run into that meet my first criteria "Depending on the person doing so intentionally, calling them anything would be glorifying them." would consider it a measure of pride to be able to bamboozle someone into sponsoring them and then destroying that sponsor's rep when the now formerly banned individual pulls the stunt again. I don't think they make up most of humanity, far from it, but they're drawn to things that are competitive like flies to stink.

6 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You haven't had the pleasure of dealing with that side of our species much it seems to me. I envy you. Most of the ones that I've run into that meet my first criteria "Depending on the person doing so intentionally, calling them anything would be glorifying them." would consider it a measure of pride to be able to bamboozle someone into sponsoring them and then destroying that sponsor's rep when the now formerly banned individual pulls the stunt again. I don't think they make up most of humanity, far from it, but they're drawn to things that are competitive like flies to stink.

I have known guys who would rather try to take you for a nickel than make a fair trade where they are a dollar ahead.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You haven't had the pleasure of dealing with that side of our species much it seems to me. I envy you. Most of the ones that I've run into that meet my first criteria "Depending on the person doing so intentionally, calling them anything would be glorifying them." would consider it a measure of pride to be able to bamboozle someone into sponsoring them and then destroying that sponsor's rep when the now formerly banned individual pulls the stunt again. I don't think they make up most of humanity, far from it, but they're drawn to things that are competitive like flies to stink.

Well I have to admit, your experience in these things does out strip my own, X-Wing is the first game of this sort that I've ever played.

4 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I have known guys who would rather try to take you for a nickel than make a fair trade where they are a dollar ahead.

They gain more personal value out of the scheme than what the extra $.95 would bring. It isn't about the nickel or the buck, it is about their game.

2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I have known guys who would rather try to take you for a nickel than make a fair trade where they are a dollar ahead.

Yeah, people can sure suck sometimes.

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They gain more personal value out of the scheme than what the extra $.95 would bring. It isn't about the nickel or the buck, it is about their game.

So they're perfect examples of "hate the player, and NOT the game." I guess I would have to say at that point, they should be banned for life.

5 minutes ago, KburgBob said:

Well I have to admit, your experience in these things does out strip my own, X-Wing is the first game of this sort that I've ever played.

Gross majority of the people you'll encounter in the community will most likely be decent people who aren't going to try and cheat you. It'll be a very small percentage that will try. Most who do something that seems a bit iffy really don't know that what they're doing is problematic. Just bring up the issue with them, have a suggestion on how they can improve what they're doing (like you did in your first post) and gauge the situation based on their reaction.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Gross majority of the people you'll encounter in the community will most likely be decent people who aren't going to try and cheat you. It'll be a very small percentage that will try. Most who do something that seems a bit iffy really don't know that what they're doing is problematic. Just bring up the issue with them, have a suggestion on how they can improve what they're doing (like you did in your first post) and gauge the situation based on their reaction.

I like your suggestion. Seriously, Thank you. Thanks to all of you who have been commenting on my post. I really do appreciate it. 😊