3 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

For clarity you should probably ask about additional scenarios involving Shadow Self adjacent to creature with armor.

What if I attempt to play 3 punches vs the armor creature? Does armor apply before Shadow Self takes the damage?

In my opinion, the armor would only apply once damage per armor point per round. If the armor is bypassed with shadow self, then you would just resolve a single punch card at a time. If the armor should be calculated, then you would hit the 1 armor for champion, and then 2 damage points to shadow. The subsequent 2 punches would each hit for 3 damage to shadow self each for a total damage of 8 (down 1 from the single armor point from champion).

Of course, this gets muddied when you throw a bulwark into the equation. Here's how I feel that one works out. Let's say the same situation exists Champion Shadow Self and then Bulwark on shadow self's other side. If the armor is bypassed on champion, then you would hit shadow self for 1 damage because 2 absorbed by shadow self's armor with subsequent 2 punches dealing a total of 7 damage counters on shadow self. If the armor should be calculated (as I believe is correct), then you'd hit the 1 armor from champion and the 2 armor on shadow self with the first punch for 0 damage. Then the other 2 punches would each tally 3 damage for a total of 6 damage counters on shadow self.

The two scenarios aren't "that" different, but when someone is trying to skirt the edge of keeping their mob alive, that incoming armor point makes all of the difference. I wonder how tournament officials have been calling it.

nonconstructive deleted

36 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

They did not say "Armor prevents an amount of damage equal to the armor value that the creature IS DEALT each turn", notice how they say "would take".

Learn to Play: If a creature has an armor value (to the right of a card’s title), the armor prevents that much incoming damage each turn. A “~” symbol indicates that the creature has no armor.

P7: "If a creature has an armor value (to the right of the card’s title), the armor prevents that much incoming damage each turn.

Glossary p9 : Some creatures have an armor value to the right of the card title. Armor prevents an amount of damage equal to the armor value that the creature would take each turn.

Armour only applies to the damage the creature "would take each turn" not to each source of damage. I think you are over-emphasising one part of the rule and not reading it all in full.

Never Mind

It certainly seems like something we need a ruling on. I try and damage Anaphiel; Shadow Self pops up and says "Woah, that damage should be dealt to me instead!" Armour pops up and says "Woah, that damage should be prevented instead!" Which effect applies?

From a lore point of view, it doesn't make much sense that Shadow Self would sit around and wait for the armour to be used up before jumping in front to take the damage; it feels more like the intent was that he jumps in front to block all incoming damage, whether or not it would eventually be applied.

By a similar token, what happens if Shadow Self is next to an Elusive creature? Shadow Self says "Woah, that damage should be dealt to me instead!" Elusive says "Woah, no damage should be dealt!" Does Elusive overrule in this case?

What happens if two Shadow Selfs are next to a creature being damaged? Both Shadow Selfs pop up and try to take the damage. Does someone get to choose where the damage goes? Are they both damaged?

25 minutes ago, Showsni said:

What happens if two Shadow Selfs are next to a creature being damaged? Both Shadow Selfs pop up and try to take the damage. Does someone get to choose where the damage goes? Are they both damaged?

Active player makes the choice.

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

Active player makes the choice.

No, they both take the damage when you follow the text on Shadow Self

My initial thought would be that Shadow Self's "instead" clause would mean it went straight to Shadow Self, but:

Yeah it was really ambiguous - the word deal/dealt is being used to mean multiple things. The understanding was the poison wave deals the (incoming) damage to the shadow self instead of to the armored creature. (Kinda makes more sense thematically as well. You attack the fake knight instead of the real one - why does the fake knight get armor? Not a fan of ruling it the other way myself.)

They just haven't updated it on crucible yet. You can always use manual mode to correct a bug.

On 12/20/2018 at 4:17 AM, KFMixer said:

The big caveat is in the rulebook where it says that " Armor prevents an amount of damage equal to the armor value that the creature would take each turn"

That damage was prevented before the champion even took the damage. There was no damage dealt to the creature at all

Congratulation @KFMixer

I'm foreseeing a potential problem when it comes to actually explaining this in a non-contradictory fashion once we get to formalized rules. Why does elusive and skirmish get to go before armor, which in turn goes before Shadow Self? And where does Gabos Longarms fit in this equation? I'm only in the 400's in terms of cannibalizing the Magic Comprehensive Rulebook, so I haven't hit that section yet, but it did cross my mind...

Brand new account made to revive a month old thread with an official answer we already knew? Thanks for the chuckle.

4 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

Brand new account made to revive a month old thread with an official answer we already knew? Thanks for the chuckle.

Nothing like self congratulations and thread necromancy.

4 hours ago, Krashwire said:

Nothing like self congratulations and thread necromancy.

And a wall of text in the rules and FAQ to make a poorly written rule easier to understand.