Just now, ryfterek said:It was all right of you to begin with. At some point though, you should trigger some "While you argue over the same thing for the 100th time, if the opposing player is clearly more experienced than you, take some time for self-reflection and give your opinion a second thought".
yes i did. many thoughts. neither the experienced opposing player nor your hailing of the replacement effect convinced me.
the one point i repeated a lot is the following:
thats not my inexperienced argument. its just in the rrg.
2 minutes ago, Cassan said:the one point i repeated a lot is the following:
thats not my inexperienced argument. its just in the rrg.
And at no point is the action both white and red, nor is it any other colour.
Also purple actions in rep/cis are gonna blow your mind.
Just now, thespaceinvader said:And at no point is the action both white and red, nor is it any other colour.
Also purple actions in rep/cis are gonna blow your mind.
your point is?
1 minute ago, Cassan said:your point is?
That actions are either white or red and this action is no different. It is either white or red. It's colour sometimes changes which doesn't violate that rule.
Just now, thespaceinvader said:That actions are either white or red and this action is no different. It is either white or red. It's colour sometimes changes which doesn't violate that rule.
so poe and debris gambit works?
1 minute ago, Cassan said:so poe and debris gambit works?
No. It starts red. It may become white. It is therefore either red or white. It is never both or neither.
7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:9 hours ago, Cassan said:you cant start a red action and turn it midway into a white action.
You can tho. It's exactly what Debris Gambit DOES. It's written on the card.
6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:You start a red evade. Period. Then, depending on circumstances, that color might change.
6 hours ago, ryfterek said:The effect being replaced has to take place
6 hours ago, ryfterek said:there has to be a red Evade event taking place
you're right. you didnt. the others did. you said something about the red evade action "taking place".
Edited by Cassan46 minutes ago, Cassan said:the one point i repeated a lot is the following:
thats not my inexperienced argument. its just in the rrg.
And I kept asking you: what color is the action BEFORE you measure range to check whether it is suddenly, conditionally treated as white?
Hint: it is NOT white. And because it has to be either red or white, it is just one other possibility
Alright, let's just start from ground zero. I really wish to understand how does it add up to you, so I'm just going to ask you questions about the scenario and you're just going to answer them, on by one, fair?
To begin with: image you play the game, got any ship that doesn't come with an Evade action on it's bar, only equipped with Debris Gambit. You want to use it. What is the state of the game now, what has to be happening now?
Just now, GreenDragoon said:And I kept asking you: what color is the action BEFORE you measure range to check whether it is suddenly, conditionally treated as white?
Hint: it is NOT white. And because it has to be either red or white, it is just one other possibility
of course it is white, if you are in range. it is red, if you are not. but to be sure you have to measure.
the only question remaining is: when are you allowed to measure? since the rrg does not forbid measuring explicitly anywhere, you can do it only "when it is neccesary".
so when is it neccesary in this case?
Just now, ryfterek said:What is the state of the game now
you dont know if debris gambit triggers.
Just now, ryfterek said:what has to be happening now?
so you measure.
btw. i think this card is called a gambit, because you are close to an asteroid. not because you dont know the difficulty of your action.
1 minute ago, Cassan said:you dont know if debris gambit triggers
When does DG trigger? Does it mention any prerequisite conditions on the card?
Just now, ryfterek said:When does DG trigger? Does it mention any prerequisite conditions on the card?
no it doesnt mention when it triggers but i mentions which part is replaced and which is the replacement. the requirement for it to trigger is "if there is an obstacle at range 0-1".
Just now, Cassan said:no it doesnt mention when it triggers but i mentions which part is replaced and which is the replacement. the requirement for it to trigger is "if there is an obstacle at range 0-1 ".
Is the "obstacle at range" the only part of the card text before explanation of the effect it generates? Does it use any time-related words, similar to "when, during, whenever"?
Just now, ryfterek said:Is the "obstacle at range" the only part of the card text before explanation of the effect it generates? Does it use any time-related words, similar to "when, during, whenever"?
yes. no when, no during, no whenever.
Just now, Cassan said:yes . no when, no during, no whenever
Isn't there a "while" somewhere in there? If it is, Cambridge dictionary definition of this word is " during the time that, or at the same time as ". Does that sound like a time-describing word?
Anyhow, is there anything on the card you could use to narrow down the timing it triggers in? Does it trigger in system phase? Engagement phase? End phase? You see, to measure range in this game, some rule has to tell you to do it. But don't worry. It can be a rule from the card, you've got a card equipped that does just that! But is there any situation in which this card tells you to measure a range to something?
i read the "while" as "if you would". makes sense now. thanks.
kinda contradicts the either-white-or-red thing in the rrg.
1 minute ago, Cassan said:i read the "while" as "if you would". makes sense now. thanks.
Oh. Alright? So, shall we continue? Or have we simplified this kinda messy discussion now? Can you see what idea we ( as in @thespaceinvader , @GreenDragoon and me, not me and hundreds of my imaginary friends ) had in mind from the very beginning of this thread and why have we disagreed with your opinion?
why do you want to continue? you convinced me.
24 minutes ago, Cassan said:why do you want to continue? you convinced me.
I was making sure I understood what you mean.
Phew, what a ride it has been! I'm kinda glad it's over though.
So, I'd like to apologise for being rude when I ran out of patience on the previous pages of the thread. I know you might have felt attacked and I am not surprised you did. It is really frustrating though to keep on trying a different approach to create an explanation and fail every time when you don't know that the real problem is not what you thought it is. In this case, it a linguistic error. I now fully understand the issue of your understanding of the card - with what you thought it meant, your interpretation was easy to get to.
English is not everyone's first language, for some not even their second language, so mistakes like that are not impossible to happen and they will. While (hehe) discussing on an English-speaking forum it is easy to assume all other users will always understand you and the topic. It's mostly true but as we see sometimes it takes pages of discussion to find out a single word makes all the difference.
I see in your profile you're located in Germany, @Cassan . X-wing is available in German as well, right? May I suggest, when in a conflict like that in the future, you might want to take a look at the card text from the edition in your language. None of us is perfect so we can make mistakes reading the cards, but (most of the time) they are translated by professionals, so it should be easier to get the meaning of it right in your native language. I don't know German so I cannot check - is it clear in the DE edition that the card tells you when the replacement effect triggers?
I'm sorry for any bad emotions I have caused, but in the end, we managed to help you understand the card better - and the same word is used on many other cards, so it might be useful in the future to understand it properly.
Have fun playing X-wing and have a nice evening everyone. This case is - hopefully - closed.
Poe cannot perform the Evade given by Debris Gambit as his second action given by his ability, because the action he chooses has to be a white action from his action bar. The Evade on his action bar is red at the moment of this decision taking place and cannot be treated as white before being performed.
Edited by ryftereki dont own any german x-wing stuff. i dont know what the wording is.
it was simply a case of a card telling you to do stuff, that you should not be able to (by rrg).
you convinced me to ignore the rrg in this case.
xD
I don't think you should ignore the rrg, or that our interpretation does.
(Wir können das auch auf deutsch weiterführen, aber vermutlich besser per PM)
RE: Debris Gambit and Replacement Effects
For Debris Gambit to be a replacement effect, it must replace a red evade with a white evade. After-the-fact, the ship isn't considered to have performed a red evade, but there had to be a red evade to begin with, otherwise there couldn't have been a red evade to replace.
Part of this is that the "original effect did not occur" statement depends on the completion of the replacement effect. It isn't the case that there wasn't a red evade, until after you've done the white evade. In which case, no further triggers can be used to react to the red evade.
//
As such, I'm in the camp more convinced by the argument Poe can't use Debris Gambit's evade action as his second action, because he doesn't have access to a white Evade action. DG gives a red evade action, which can be transformed into a white evade action.
If ever there existed some upgrade such as an astromech which provided a white Evade action, Poe could use his ability, pick the droid's evade, treat it as red, then use Debris Gambit to treat it as white, for focus/evade with no stress. But such an astromech doesn't exist right now.
//
Now I'm sad that there wasn't a General Leia crew card in the Resistance Conversion kit. A potential ability: "Three recurring charges. At the start of the activation phase, you may spend 3 charges to add a White Evade Action to the action bar of all friendly ships." Hrm. The verbiage of that, at first thought, is a bit odd. But I like the thought of it.
//
My word. I started typing this post this morning, like 9AM. Then we lost power. It's 7 PM now, I've been busy with stuff over the day. It had been on Page 2 when I first showed up, and it's on Page 5 now... Yikes.
*edit* ...and this post wound up on Page 6. I ain't reading all of that; I've got family in town. CYA!
Edited by theBitterFig