But even if it was... for instance, if you look at Yushyn/Proach. The disarm token being gained triggers a replacement effect. but it still has to be gained to do that.

Poe doing a red evade triggers DG. But it has to be red in order for DG to do anything. So Poe can't PTL it.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You  s  tart  a red eva  d    e. Period.  Then, d  epe   nding on circumsta  nces, that color mi   ght c  h  an     g  e    .   

No. It does not change. The available action that you want to perform is either red or white (that’s from the rrg). You just confirm what difficulty it is by measuring.

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

B  ut  straight   out ignoring the whole of it is rude of you.  

I read the whole thing. I couldn’t follow your logic.

3 minutes ago, Cassan said:

No. It does not change. The available action that you want to perform is either red or white (that’s from the rrg). You just confirm what difficulty it is by measuring.

So what color does the action have when you declare it, before measuring? Nothing?

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

I  'm  only arguing that there has to be a red  Eva  de e  ve  n  t   taking place, to be then modified to be treated a  s w  hite   .

What is a red evade event?

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

You  de  clare red Evad  e. 

You declare a white evade after measuring. There never was a red evade action performed.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not a  r  eplace  ment  ef  fec   t       .

I think it is. “Instead” is a game term.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

But even if it was... for instance, if you look at Yushyn/Proach. The disarm token being gained triggers a replacement effect. but it still  has to be ga  ined to do t  hat  .

There is a debate about that. Not so sure about it.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So what color does the action have when you declare it, before measuring? Nothing?

It depends on your range to the obstacle.

Putting another brick into, hopefully, building common understanding of this manner.

FFG knows and uses th the precise wording leading to what @Cassan here reads from the situation. It's:

" Before you would ... , ... instead"

It is being used on Hull Breach Damage Card and many upgrade cards: Inertial Dampeners, Finch Dallow, to name a few, and many others.

This one is the appropriate wording they're using whenever they want us to replace an event with another one before we trigger any "while you <event>". Finch using his ability doesn't trigger any "while you drop a bomb" triggers because he never meets this condition. Hull Breach doesn't put you into "suffering <hit> damage" state. It's all explicit to prevent any triggers feeding on the effect being replaced from taking place.

Using the "while you ... , ... instead" as found on Debris Gambit, the initial effect is met and can be used by other game effects. It's more likely than not to be later on replaced (ergo canceled) by another effect, but for a brief moment it is present on the ability queue.

Hold up now if you're about to quote RR on replacement effect. " Replacement effects are not added to ability queue" . Yes, they're not. They instead take over the ability queue position where their initial / being replaced effect was present.

And for that the initial event has to be placed in the queue. Poe's PTL cannot put red Evade in the queue.

5 minutes ago, Cassan said:

No.  It does not change. The available action that    you  want to perform is  either red or   white

You're completely right here. An action can only be executed as red or as white action.

You're declaring an action of specific colour.

Some game effects, while you are performing a white/red action allows you to perform it as red/white instead, with some additional benefit usually.

The action being properly executed is always either red or white. Either it's of the colour you've declared, or the colour some other game effect allowed you to treat the action as while performing it. At the end of the day, only one set of "after you have performed <colour> action" triggers will activate.

Still it cannot be of "Schroedinger's colour" at the moment of declaration. It enters the queue as is, then with conditions being met, it is replaced in the queue by the-other-colour equivalent.

1 minute ago, Cassan said:

It depends on your range to the obstacle.

Before measuring. What is it there?

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Before measuring. What is it there?

Its either red or white.

2 minutes ago, Cassan said:

Its either red or white.

So, no color yet?

6 minutes ago, ryfterek said:

Using  the "while you ... , ... instead" as found on Debris Gambit, the initial effect is met and can be used by other game effects. It's more  likely tha  n not to be later on replaced (ergo canceled) by another effect, but   for a brief moment it is present on the ability queue.        

Hold up now if you're about to quote  RR on replacement effect. " Replacement ef  fects are not added to ability queue" . Yes, they're not. They instead take over the ability queue position where their initial / being replaced effect was  pres  en  t

That’s where we disagree. IMHO the replacement effect is placed in the queue where the replaced effect would have been placed but never was, because it never occurred.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So, no color yet?

What? Red is a color. White is a color. If it’s either red or white it has a color.

1 minute ago, Cassan said:

What? Red is a color. White is a color. If it’s either red or white it has a color.

But the action you start has no assigned single color before measuring?

11 minutes ago, Cassan said:

That’s  where we disagree. IMHO the replacement effect is placed in the queue where the replaced effect would have been placed but never was, because it never occurred  .

Yes, I do realise it's the key to our disagreement. Tell me though, for the replacement to take place, there has to be something to replace. And RR tell you that:

" They resolve at the timing of the effect they are replacing"

So the timing of the original event must have been established. An Evade action must have been taking place to have a timing. You cannot have it take place without granting it by a game effects or declaring it as your 'perform action step' action.

13 minutes ago, Cassan said:

What  ? Red is a color. White is a color. If it’s either red or white it has a  color. 

It has to have a colour to happen. But to be able to tell what colour, you have to measure ranges. To measure ranges, you have to trigger the "while you perform action" effect. Even if it's the very, very first thing taking place as a part of this action performation, you have to decide to perform an action. But as you know and underlined yourself, an action can only be red or white, cannot be undefined. But you cannot know what colour it is and what to declare without measuring... We're hitting this endless loop again.

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But the action you start has no assigned single color before measuring?

you cannot perform an action without knowing the difficulty. just measure. if you are in range, perform a white evade. if you are not, perform a red evade.

1 minute ago, Cassan said:

you cannot perform an action without knowing the difficulty. just measure. if you are in range, perform a white evade. if you are not, perform a red evade.

You are evading the question.

What color is the evade before you measure?

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

You are evading the question.

What color is the evade before you measure?

i answered it already. its either red or white. how can you know without measuring? just measure.

1 minute ago, Cassan said:

i answered it already. its either red or white. how can you know without measuring? just measure.

You can't just measure in this game. In order to have the opportunity to measure, you have to be doing a red evade action.

18 minutes ago, Cassan said:

just  measure

There's no "on player's demand" measure in X-wing. Has to come form a game effects. Game effects have to trigger out of a state of the game being achieved. For Debris Gambit this state is "performing red Evade action". Cannot perform red Evade action without performing red Evade action because you're performing white Evade action. Without that, cannot trigger DG. Without it cannot measure range. LOOP ONCE AGAIN.

1 hour ago, ryfterek said:

An Evade action must have been taking place to have a timing  .

you can determine the timing without actually performing it. you can ask youself "when would it happen"?

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

You can't just measure in this game. In order to have the opportunity to measure, you have to be doing a red evade action.

you have to do a red evade action to measure? even when i try to target lock?

1 hour ago, ryfterek said:

There's no "on player's demand" measure in X-wing. Has to come form a game effects. Game effects have to trigger out of a state of the game being achieved.

can you please point me to the rrg chapter. i know you are not allowed to measure as you please. but you are allowed to measure when an ability has some kind of range requirement like torkils ability etc.

why is it forbidden to confirm the difficulty of the evade action when you have debris gambit equipped? because as said many times before. the action is either red or white.

sequence for poe in my opinion:

1. i want to use poes ability - needs to be a white action

2. which actions are white? focus, target lock, boost and.. well lets see if the evade from debris gambit is white as well.

3a. evade is red. ****, well then i focus.

3b. evade is white (yeah thought so, i was so close to the obstacle). cool, im gonna evade.

4. make it red, get stress.