Can you combine them ?

Phasma: At the end of the Engagement Phase

Officer Thanisson: During the Activation or Engagement Phase

Is "during" also at the End?! I guess not, but I am not shure 😅 thank you in advance

yes, it works. "at the end of a phase" is also "during a phase".

see below

Thanisson triggers first. Phasma would trigger after all the shooting is done just before the end phase. If you were hoping to use Phasma to give a stress and then having Thanisson give another,I don't think it works.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

Thanisson triggers first. Phasma would trigger after all the shooting is done just before the end phase. If you were hoping to use Phasma to give a stress and then having Thanisson give another,I don't think it works.

Why wouldn't it work? Phasma's ability is still during the engagement phase and she is assigning a stress (a red token) so as long as it is in arc and at the appropriate range then it should trigger Thanisson's ability.

Card Images:

Yup. AT the end of the phase is still during it. Otherwise it woudl be after the phase.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yup. AT the end of the phase is still during it. Otherwise it woudl be after the phase.

What constitutes the "end of the engagement phase" then? Not trying to be funny.

2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

What constitutes the "end of the engagement phase" then? Not trying to be funny.

Running out of ships to engage triggers the end of the phase, things triggered at the end of the phase happen, then it's over, and things triggered after it can happen.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Running out of ships to engage triggers the end of the phase, things triggered at the end of the phase happen, then it's over, and things triggered after it can happen.

Wouldn't Thassion trigger before Phasma? He's during she's at the end.

3 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Wouldn't Thassion trigger before Phasma? He's during she's at the end.

The phase has not yet ended when Phasma triggers.

Hence, it's still during it. Its duration has not completed.

If Phasma didn't work with Thanisson, she would be worded 'after the engagement phase' which would mean she triggers after the phase has completed. If she's not after it, she's during it.

She has a different timing, because she works after all the ships have engaged. If she was timed 'during the engagement phase' you wouldn't know when in the phase to use her.

36 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The phase has not yet ended when Phasma triggers.

Hence, it's still during it. Its duration has not completed.

If Phasma didn't work with Thanisson, she would be worded 'after the engagement phase' which would mean she triggers after the phase has completed. If she's not after it, she's during it.

She has a different timing, because she works after all the ships have engaged. If she was timed 'during the engagement phase' you wouldn't know when in the phase to use her.

Any reference in the RRG you could point out to back this up?

8 minutes ago, Rettere said:

Any reference in the RRG you could point out to back this up?

No.

Just logic.

Conversely, there's also no evidence to prove otherwise, and I'm not averse to the opposing argument, it's just not the one I'd make.

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

No.

Just logic.

Ah that's too bad - I agree it makes sense the way you describe but would be nice to have a reference point. IIRC Game of Thrones 1st Ed. LCG had a similar 'end of phase' vs. 'during phase' ruling, and it didn't go the way you (and common sense) would think. Obviously very different games but helps to have a reference when available.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

4 hours ago, Rettere said:

Any reference in the RRG you could point out to back this up?

No.

Just logic.

Actually, yes! Timing is covered on p18 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2)

Quote

There are several terms that are used to indicate the specific timing of an effect:

• Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.
• At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step.
• While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied.

• At the end of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step of ship’s activation. This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred.
• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.

'at the start of...' and 'at the end of...' are both covered by 'while' and I am asserting that 'during' and 'while' are synonymous in rules terms because 'during' appears in the definition of 'while'.

I agree with @thespaceinvader . The end of the Engagement phase is still during the Engagement phase. It's the last thing which will happen before the End phase, but End of Engagement isn't End Phase--it's still engagement.

5 hours ago, Rettere said:

[re: Q: Anything more than logic and language? A: No]

Ah that's too bad - I agree it makes sense the way you describe but would be nice to have a reference point. IIRC Game of Thrones 1st Ed. LCG had a similar 'end of phase' vs. 'during phase' ruling, and it didn't go the way you (and common sense) would think. Obviously very different games but helps to have a reference when available.

The closest example I can think of in X-Wing was Torkil Mux and Roark Garnet in 1e. Torkil was an end of activation trigger, but Roark was a start of combat/engagement trigger. Each effect happened at one extreme of their respective phases, but they didn't happen at the same time. Torkil Happened on the 31st of December, Roark on the 1st of January, to use an analogy.

@theBitterFig what's your take on my assumed synonymy of 'while' and 'during'?

11 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Actually, yes! Timing is covered on p18 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2)

'at the start of...' and 'at the end of...' are both covered by 'while' and I am asserting that 'during' and 'while' are synonymous in rules terms because 'during' appears in the definition of 'while'.

you convinced me. effects trigger "..before anything occurs during that phase..".

the "at the end of"-timing is worded differently (why ffg?), but very similar:

i guess "normal effects" are effects that trigger during the phase..

so thanisson would trigger before phasma.

7 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

@theBitterFig what's your take on my assumed synonymy of 'while' and 'during'?

I'm not sure. On the surface, they seem close enough, but I haven't tried to look at broader implications.

7 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

@theBitterFig what's your take on my assumed synonymy of 'while' and 'during'?

the while-timing refers to "effects" rather than "phases". i dont think it is synonymous ..

30 minutes ago, Cassan said:

you convinced me. effects trigger "..before anything occurs during that phase..".

the "at the end of"-timing is worded differently (why ffg?), but very similar:

i guess "normal effects" are effects that trigger during the phase..

so thanisson would trigger before phasma.

I don't understand the idea that Thanisson triggers before Phasma. It seems like an odd way to look at the interaction, because there is no question about the order of the abilities, as Thanisson's ability isn't triggered by a timing window (the way Phasma's is) and it's not a "normal effect" of the phase, it's a card ability that can only be used during the specified phases. For the purposes of this interaction, Phasma must happen first. Thanisson either happens after Phasma, or doesn't happen at all. The question is whether or not Phasma's ability occurs during the engagement phase and is therefore a suitable trigger for Thanisson.

My two cents is that, as currently defined, there is no window in between phases where things can happen, so when Phasma triggers it must be either the engagement phase or the end phase. I don't see a way to reasonably argue that it happens in the end phase. Therefore it must occur during the engagement phase, and her ability can trigger Thanisson's.

So, there is one other possible interpretation. Since 'at the start of' is during the phase but has to occur "before anything else", its conceivable that "at the end of" has to occur after everything else . This would mean that "at the end of" is still "during", but that no further triggers that chain onto an 'at the end of' effect could be triggered.

This isn't supported by the current RRG but FFG could rule it this way. They have ruled this way on other games. And it sucked.

On 12/19/2018 at 4:17 PM, Maui. said:

My two cents is that, as currently defined, there is no window in between phases where things can happen, so when Phasma triggers it must be either the engagement phase or the end phase. I don't see a way to reasonably argue that it happens in the end phase.

i dont think there is a debate about phasma triggering in the end phase.

On 12/19/2018 at 4:17 PM, Maui. said:

Therefore it must occur during the engagement phase, and her ability can trigger Thanisson's.

the rrg splits a phase in 3 parts: start, during and end (see above). phasma triggers at the end of the engagement phase (thats written on the card) - not during the phase.

when phasma gives stress (at the end of the engagement phase), it is too late for thanisson to trigger (because thanisson can trigger only DURING the activation or engagement phase).

force yourself to treat "during" as a game term, not how you would use it to describe something happening at any point during a phase.

of course i could be completely wrong, if ffg decides "during" is not considered a game term in this case..

5 minutes ago, Cassan said:

phasma triggers at the end of the engagement phase (thats written on the card) - not during the phase.

Phasma happens in the engagement phase, but not during the engagement phase? There's no conception of the word during where there is any sense to that statement. That's such a torture of language that the argument ought to be rejected out of hand. It's utterly impossible to take what claims to be a rules-as-written argument seriously, when you're doing things like that to the written word.

Stripping away to the bare minimum: Phasma = Stress. Phasma = Engagement Phase. Stress + Engagement Phase = Thannison. Ergo: Phasma = Thannison.

I think also this is radically misreading the Rules Reference. I don't believe "Start of" "While" and "End of" are intended to be discrete subphases which do not interact, so much as descriptors of common timings. The end of the engagement phase is still engagement phase, and trying to exclude it from during the engagement phase is ridiculous. Particularly when "during" isn't even a bloody keyword. It just seems like the height of hubris.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Phasma happens in the engagement phase, but not during the engagement phase? There's no conception of the word during where there is any sense to that statement. That's such a torture of language that the argument ought to be rejected out of hand. It's utterly impossible to take what claims to be a rules-as-written argument seriously, when you're doing things like that to the written word.

just read this part of the rrg:

there is a difference between "at the start of a phase" and "during a phase". i didnt torture anything - ffg did.

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Stripping away to the bare minimum: Phasma = Stress. Phasma = Engagement Phase. Stress + Engagement Phase = Thannison. Ergo: Phasma = Thannison.

phasma = END OF engagement phase.

thannison = DURING engagement phase.

ergo: there is not yet stress from phasma, when thannison is allowed to trigger.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think also this is radically misreading the Rules Reference. I don't believe "Start of" "While" and "End of" are intended to be discrete subphases which do not interact, so much as descriptors of common timings. The end of the engagement phase is still engagement phase, and trying to exclude it from during the engagement phase is ridiculous. Particularly when "during" isn't even a bloody keyword. It just seems like the height of hubris. 

the whole point of the discussion is to see if the different steps of a phase (start, during, end) are really disjoint sets. not ridiculous at all when discussing about game terms.

Although I would personally allow someone to combo these cards based on believed intention, but that's not what's written. Unfortunately, due to FFG's writing, I do not have a counter argument to those pointing out that the rules define start , while , and end as distinctly not overlapping sub-phases.

If these sorts of things are meant to work together then, hopefully, FFG will redefine their timing rules to explicitly include before/after inside of while.

While they're at it, they could add something to say that during and while are or are not the same in game terms.