18 hours ago, Amanal said:

I shared the impression that the app would be available upon release, about 2 weeks prior where they announced that the app was in beta test and wouldn't be finished.

Perhaps you are lucky and see no need for the app, but there are others that are feeling its absence.

23 hours ago, Krashwire said:

This appears to be either whining for the sake of whining or trolling.

First off, it's not either of those. It's stating how I feel based on trending.

This isn't the first game I (and I assume others here) have bought into based on sales hype that didn't get delivered as it was stated. And scaling back statements of scope before sale doesn't cut it. By scaling back before sale or at sale you have let down your consumer base. (I saw the hype but the scale back wasn't nearly as easy to find so I wasn't aware that it HAD been scaled back until a couple of weeks ago.)

Better to say less and deliver more than say more and deliver less.

Another recent game that comes to mind on this trend is BattleTech from Hairbrained schemes....so much was promised AND PAID FOR via kickstarted and NOT delivered. To say people are "whining for the sake of whining or just trolling" when they are justified in feeling this why is myopic and insensitive. If you bought a car brand new 2019 and it came without a radio, a/c, power steering (etc on non-essential components) that is now considered standard wouldn't you be disappointed? I think most would.

(Oh and I know we didn't pay for this game before it was released. That illustration was brought up in order to show that this is not an isolated incident of building hype and then delivering less than expected.)

32 minutes ago, Bolfry said:

First off, it's not either of those. It's stating how I feel based on trending.

This isn't the first game I (and I assume others here) have bought into based on sales hype that didn't get delivered as it was stated. And scaling back statements of scope before sale doesn't cut it. By scaling back before sale or at sale you have let down your consumer base. (I saw the hype but the scale back wasn't nearly as easy to find so I wasn't aware that it HAD been scaled back until a couple of weeks ago.)

Better to say less and deliver more than say more and deliver less.

Another recent game that comes to mind on this trend is BattleTech from Hairbrained schemes....so much was promised AND PAID FOR via kickstarted and NOT delivered. To say people are "whining for the sake of whining or just trolling" when they are justified in feeling this why is myopic and insensitive. If you bought a car brand new 2019 and it came without a radio, a/c, power steering (etc on non-essential components) that is now considered standard wouldn't you be disappointed? I think most would.

(Oh and I know we didn't pay for this game before it was released. That illustration was brought up in order to show that this is not an isolated incident of building hype and then delivering less than expected.)

In fairness, Kickstarter is an entirely different critter. A company is selling you on the idea of something that generally either doesn't exist yet or is in progress, but incomplete. You're making a decision as to whether or not you think you want to support their effort financially. In return, they'll send you one of their products from the initial production batch. That's inherently a gamble.

With Keyforge, you get to make that purchase decision AFTER the product has been released. If you're mainly interested in the online tracking of wins/losses, then yeah... maybe wait until the organized play with win/loss tracking starts up to see what it looks like yet. It hasn't started up yet.

6 hours ago, KrisWall said:

In fairness, Kickstarter is an entirely different critter. A company is selling you on the idea of something that generally either doesn't exist yet or is in progress, but incomplete. You're making a decision as to whether or not you think you want to support their effort financially. In return, they'll send you one of their products from the initial production batch. That's inherently a gamble.

With Keyforge, you get to make that purchase decision AFTER the product has been released. If you're mainly interested in the online tracking of wins/losses, then yeah... maybe wait until the organized play with win/loss tracking starts up to see what it looks like yet. It hasn't started up yet.

Seems the point of the post was missed. Comparision between kickstarter and traditional purchase was acknowledged in my post. What the post was talking about was setting proper customer expectations and controling the Hype v. Reality at release factor.

Many people were sold on this game as being balanced so everyone at a local casual level could have a good play experience. Some people are having bad experiences because some they must play with locally will only acknowledge "official" adjustments to their game play. (And i doubt chains will be used in online play at all.)

This balancing factor was promised as part of this game. I do not have such play issues bit would like to see this idea..which is the game..get to what we were all sold on. They have been collecting data for all this time during playtesting and pre release events. They have over 300k decks registered and could be collecting data on those.

If they are not yet ready saying when they think they may might be a good idea.

On 12/18/2018 at 7:41 PM, TheSpitfired said:

Ha! I can't believe I missed that. That's a hilarious point.

I think the general understanding is that there is going to be a tracker system that will be put in place for tournament play, and even then it might only apply if a single deck is running away with all the tournaments. It's all speculation at this point. Even I should admit that I am completely guessing and do not know what the power/chain system is going to end up looking like.

They have stated that there will be tournaments that are power restricted. Meaning any deck above a certain power level cant be brought to that tournament. I am not aure at what level they intend this to happen but chain will only apply at lgs level. Power is something determined by tournament play at all levels somehow and is a ceiling amount. Once a deck reaches a certain power level it never drops back down unlike chains. I think this is all we know at this point.

Two of my locals just bough a case each, 144 decks, each!! Some of us need the App sooner than later.

If OP degenerates to who has been the luckiest to draw a very good deck, or allows the idea of buy to win, then the game will probably not last as long as we would hope.

On 12/17/2018 at 2:59 PM, KrisWall said:

They said not all of the functionality would be ready at launch. Initial functionality is deck collection and viewing. They've said several times to stay tuned for organized play details and that it's still a work in progress.

My main quibble here is the lack of consistency in where FAQ and clarifications are posted. We find them in videos, facebook, etc, We only have one in the official community forums. Why can't we have a single place where ambiguous card text and rulings are presented. I know that a new rulebook will eventually drop, but in the meantime, I wish they note the answers they give and post them here.

As to FFG's claim that this is beta software, it isn't. It's alpha software. Beta implies that nearly all core functionality is available, but it may be buggy and subject to change and refinement. We have little functionality in the app.

On 12/22/2018 at 8:25 AM, debiant said:

My main quibble here is the lack of consistency in where FAQ and clarifications are posted. We find them in videos, facebook, etc, We only have one in the official community forums. Why can't we have a single place where ambiguous card text and rulings are presented. I know that a new rulebook will eventually drop, but in the meantime, I wish they note the answers they give and post them here.

As to FFG's claim that this is beta software, it isn't. It's alpha software. Beta implies that nearly all core functionality is available, but it may be buggy and subject to change and refinement. We have little functionality in the app.

Well I'm not going hunting for all the rulings and clarifications. The tourney document states CLEARLY that in any competitive setting that the ONLY rules that matter are in the Rulebook or FAQ.... so FFG step up and update the offical sources please?

Edit: And yes this is important to casual play as well. There are enough complaints here of people not having a good play experience due to imbalances and unclear interactions...not just the lack of chains. Please update the official rules/FAQ/Docs soon!

8 hours ago, Bolfry said:

Well I  'm not going hunting for all the rulings and    c  larifications. The tourney document states CLEARLY th  at in any competitive setting that the ONLY rules that matter are in the Rulebook or FAQ.... so FFG step up and update the offical sources please? 

And the TO. FFGs OP-structure leaves a lot to the TO themselves. This is well documented and known from all of their systems. A good TO will keep up with at least the majority of these rulings and inform their players beforehand. It isn't great and makes organizing FFG game tournaments obnoxious. Most (good) store owners that want to have FFG tournaments ask players they know are involved with the game to help out with this. FFG could and should do this better, but right now you need to rely on your TO to find and communicate these rulings (maybe direct them towards the excellent keyforge compendium faq to make their life easier).

Now, I generally look at the FAQ on KeyForge Compendium before I look anywhere else. KFC seems the most comprehensive resource available online.

2 hours ago, debiant said:

KFC seems the most comprehensive resource available online.

With rules so good they are finger lickin'!! 😃

13 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

And the TO. FFGs OP-structure leaves a lot to the TO themselves. This is well documented and known from all of their systems. A good TO will keep up with at least the majority of these rulings and inform their players beforehand. It isn't great and makes organizing FFG game tournaments obnoxious. Most (good) store owners that want to have FFG tournaments ask players they know are involved with the game to help out with this. FFG could and should do this better, but right now you need to rely on your TO to find and communicate these rulings (maybe direct them towards the excellent keyforge compendium faq to make their life easier).

Well, that’s half of what I’m after, is the process to become one of the official tourney organizers...I’m wanting to know how to go about getting sanctioned or listed or whatever for official tournament organizing....

53 minutes ago, trogdorwasaman said:

Well, that’s half of what I’m after, is the process to become one of the official tourney organizers...I’m wanting to know how to go about getting sanctioned or listed or whatever for official tournament organizing....

You have a store or cooperate with a store. There is no official way for third parties to organise events or program to help organisers find help from people intimately familiar with the game. Only stores registered with FFGs distributors are able to order OP-kits. For larger events like conventions exceptions exist, but those organisers are probably able to contact the local distributors OP team directly through contacts anyways.

This is the FFG way of handling OP and it is not ideal. For most of their games it is adequate, but some (notably X-Wing, but that ship sailed like 2 years ago) could have grown into more Magic-like professional environments at the very top if handled differently at a certain stage of their growth. I doubt they'll hit the right window to push for this with KeyForge should it even open, right now we are at a stage where we can't expect a professionalised OP environment, yet, since the game needs to develop one to begin with first.

On 12/17/2018 at 9:12 PM, trogdorwasaman said:

To be fair, the gameplay is wholly uneffected by the inability to track stats on the decks.

Competitively, sure...but you sitting with your buddy playing....are you gonna chain your deck for every win that deck gets when playing for fun?

Wasn’t it supposed to be every 3 wins in a row adds a chain?

17 hours ago, Derrault said:

Wasn’t it supposed to be every 3 wins in a row adds a chain?

Who knows, they haven't built the app for that yet.

On 12/25/2018 at 3:46 PM, Derrault said:

Wasn’t it supposed to be every 3 wins in a row adds a chain?

To the best of my knowledge, they've never commented on how the chains are supposed to work as relates to the app.

4 hours ago, KrisWall said:

To the best of my knowledge, they've never commented on how the chains are supposed to work as relates to the app.

I wouldn't expect that just yet. As a Magic Judge, I am beginning to contemplate all that goes into recording events, and it makes Magic seem tame by comparison.

If all we do are single game events with no chains, it's easy enough to copy Magic's system. In fact, the tiebreakers for determining Top 8 (or Top 4 or Top whatever) exactly mirror Magic's Two-Headed Giant tiebreakers, which also run as a single game per round. If we did Best of 3 straight up, that could also copy Magic's basic match structure, but it would need to be added as such to the Tournament Rules document. Reversal can even be done relatively effectively.

But now consider some of the proposed formats. Adaptive can have a match that goes 2-1 in favor of one player but the same deck wins all three games. And the software has no way to predict who is playing which deck in Game 3, as that is decided by a bidding war. Play Triad, and you not only need the software to track wins and losses, but which decks are part of them each game. In the first round, I might win Game 1 with J. J. MacMurphy, Realm Runner against Mario the Pious Plumber, lose Game 2 playing against Luigi the Brother of Coveralls, and win Game 3 against Luigi playing Akbar of the Balsawood Airplane, only to have J. J. struck in Round 2 and have to play with Kanta Koven the Indomitable who was struck from playing Round 1.

And with all of these, how should chains be calculated? By the time the data is collected for chains to be calculated, a deck could have up to 15 wins in a row, or be 17-9 with no string of 3 in the entire mix. I have my ideas, but at this point they are just ideas, so I'm not going to post them unless asked. I'm sure someone is experimenting with a system now, and the speed of implementation is dependent on how closely that system's results track with expectations. And no doubt the issue of negative chains (decks so bad they inflict extra chains on their opponents) is being debated, as there are good arguments for and against such a concept.

If someone comes up to me and says, "I want a system that produces the following chain results for these dozen (or more) cases," I can make that happen. But at this point, I have no idea what people consider reasonable, and to be honest, I don't think the community has settled on that either. Let's get that settled first, and then we'll see how to implement it.

You’re trying to track players though, where you should be tracking decks. Chaining becomes much easier once you start there.

Still not saying it’s easy, but some of the problems you mentioned are just non-existant this way.

On 12/27/2018 at 1:36 PM, Rabbitball said:

If someone comes up to me and says, "I want a system that produces the following chain results for these dozen (or more) cases," I can make that happen. But at this point, I have no idea what people consider reasonable, and to be honest, I don't think the community has settled on that either. Let's get that settled first, and then we'll see how to implement it.

The first step is going to be to track game results, we aren't even there yet. We should have been tracking game results sooner than later, and me scanning in my deck, then my opponents and he doing likewise should be able to create a match. At the end of the match we both scan in the winning deck and we have the tracking part of the app.

Everything else, should be handled programmatically by variables and be subject to change as ideas and the systems progress. Without the tracking though you can't test the ideas.

On 12/19/2018 at 8:52 PM, Amanal said:

Two of my locals just bough a case each, 144 decks, each!! Some of us need the App sooner than later.

If OP degenerates to who has been the luckiest to draw a very good deck, or allows the idea of buy to win, then the game will probably not last as long as we would hope.

Who the **** has ~$1500 to blow, all in one shot, on a flippin' card game? I mean, I bought a display box, and I feel like I've got plenty to play with. Are they all super top tier tournament killers? Probably not.

OOOH, I bet they're hoping to pull some tripple Horsemen decks and sell 'em on Ebay for $10k and 51% of someone's soul.

On 12/27/2018 at 1:08 AM, Palpster said:

You’re trying to track players though, where you should be tracking decks. Chaining becomes much easier once you start there.

Still not saying it’s easy, but some of the problems you mentioned are just non-existant this way.

OK, and what happens when a deck goes 8-0 in a Reversal event? Should it be chained? 8-0 says yes, Reversal says no. Maybe the player is throwing the event to build up the deck's record, but how do we know if we don't track the player as well.

On 12/28/2018 at 1:46 AM, Amanal said:

The first step is going to be to track game results, we aren't even there yet. We should have been tracking game results sooner than later, and me scanning in my deck, then my opponents and he doing likewise should be able to create a match. At the end of the match we both scan in the winning deck and we have the tracking part of the app.

Everything else, should be handled programmatically by variables and be subject to change as ideas and the systems progress. Without the tracking though you can't test the ideas.

That's like saying the only thing that matters in Keyforge is forging your third key. Technically true, but practically meaningless. Keyforge Compendium allows people to record wins and losses already, but it relies on people being honest. And that's only a fraction of what you need for a tournament. We could do it manually, but tiebreakers to cut to an elimination round are a pain that way, even with calculators (or a mathemagician like me on the scene).

I agree that getting a reliable way of tracking wins at tournament events is absolutely necessary. But doing only that borders on useless as far as tournament software goes. And to me, having something that only tracked wins and losses at a tournament would be a bigger insult than waiting for something that does at least enough to run single-game Swiss rounds of Solo play competently and calculates place rankings afterward. I can fake a Top 8 (or Top 4 or Top whatever) cut in the software, but please don't make me delay the tournament by upwards of a half hour manually calculating the tiebreakers to determine who belongs there.

9 hours ago, Rabbitball said:

I agree that getting a reliable way of tracking wins at tournament events is absolutely necessary. But doing only that borders on useless as far as tournament software goes.

Well if tracking wins is useless, right now that would make the app less than useless.

The act of making it less so has to begin somewhere, and in all honesty the ability to draw 6/7 random cards isn't doing all that much for me.

12 hours ago, Rabbitball said:

OK, and what happens when a deck goes 8-0 in a Reversal event? Should it be chained? 8-0 says yes, Reversal says no. Maybe the player is throwing the event to build up the deck's record, but how do we know if we don't track the player as well.

Yes, it should be chained, and if someone threw his matches just to get his own deck chained, well, good luck to them.

14 hours ago, Rabbitball said:

OK, and what happens when a deck goes 8-0 in a Reversal event? Should it be chained? 8-0 says yes, Reversal says no. Maybe the player is throwing the event to build up the deck's record, but how do we know if we don't track the player as well.

Can you clarify how you track the player and the deck independently?

14 hours ago, Amanal said:

Well if tracking wins is useless, right now that would make the app less than useless.

The act of making it less so has to begin somewhere, and in all honesty the ability to draw 6/7 random cards isn't doing all that much for me.

You are confusing tournament software with general use of the Master Vault. A tournament needs the stuff I mentioned above. The Master Vault needs to take the tournament results (which come from another program given to organizers) and process them into the win/loss/chains/power ratings. As an organizer/marshal, I start from the assumption that tracking wins and losses is easy enough, even if I have to just build an Excel file for it and populate it manually. It's less likely that Excel will be sufficiently savvy to calculate tiebreakers for the 5 people who go 4-1 in a 32-person event and the 10 people who go 3-2 to decide what the Top 8 should look like. That's more likely to take a full-fledged computer program, and while I know exactly what it should look like, my programming skills are a bit rusty to actually make that happen.