"The RZ-2 A-wing is the fastest ship the Resistance has to offer..."

After we managed to hijack several threads and force them into discussions about A-wings, why not stick to just one instead? Because we all know:

Statline:

The statline is as we know it: 2 Attack, 3 Agility, 2 Hull and 2 Shield.
However, that attack is a turret attack (1)! The indicator can only point forwards or backwards, and the A-wing does not have a forward facing primary weapon arc.
The action bar is very juicy, with "Focus", "Evade", "Lock", "Barrel Roll" and "Boost". You'll notice that the "rotate arc" action is missing. So how to do that? Easy, the A-wing has more new stuff:
Like the old one, he can perform a red "boos"t after any action. But the RZ2 can also perform a red " rotate arc " (2)! This means you will always end up stressed after rotating, but the A-wing don't care because...

The dial is amazing!
1 hards white; All 2s, all blue; All 3s, with straight and banks blue (4)! Also 3 sloops.The 4 straight and 5 straight are also blue, as we're used to. Lastly, a 5k.
That means 10 blue moves, 4 whites and 3 red!

Then the slots. A tech slot (5), two talents (6) and the known missile.

Pilots:
I won't go into the pilots in depth.

• L'ulo is an X-wing if he wants to be.
• Tallie is a cheap I5. She can give a friendly ship (including herself) an extra agility die while defending.
• Greer can turn his turret for free - this is more valuable than I would have thought!
• Zari gets an action even if bumped.
• The generics differ in Ini and Talent slots. Those two points are IMO a nobrainer and I do not see when you'd ever take a blue recruit.

Tech upgrades:

• Advanced Optics is great on massed generics with heroic (86% for 2 hits) or without ( 81% for 2 hits ).
• Pattern Analyzer: I don't see it. Maybe with Elusive and Heroic on L'ulo, but that's the only case I can imagine;
• Targeting Synchronizer: If you want, maybe get it on an I5 to allow generics to shoot their non-procket missiles? Looks like a bad idea, at best it's fun to do once.
• Ferrosphere paint: Too expensive;
• Primed thrusters: Too expensive.

Talents:

My main question and where I'd like to start the discussion: Which talents do you bring?
I will go through all that are available and make three groups: those that can be considered, those that really can't, and those where I don't believe myself or others.

Good:

• Crackshot: get a bullseye, and cancel. 1 damage for 1 point is still amazing, even if it triggers less often. Or does it? ;
• Trickshot: Allegedly it's good. I couldn't trigger it too often in 6 games with 30 A-wings total, but that might be me;
• Heroic: A nice failsafe. The triple blank on defense doesn't happen often (around 5%), but the offense also adds a nice 6.25% chance to reroll those blanks. I think it's a must on L'ulo who can reliably use it on defense (14% chance to occur) when he's stressed;
• Predator: Maybe? I wouldn't combine it with Heroic, but maybe with crackshot? Creates a large threat in that bullseye;
• Lone Wolf: The usual downside of flying alone. But otherwise a solid choice if the points are available. Maybe with heroic, to reroll one of the dreaded focus+blank, or of the focus+blank+blank on defense?

Bad:

• Outmaneuver: is not possible to trigger as the Awing never fires with a forward facing arc;
• Juke: you won't because you have to take focus. A focus is more flexible, brings almost the same defense on 3 dice . Plus only juke is much worse on offense than a simple focus ; (e: a simple comparison without green dice won't tell much of course...). Still, just focus or juke are rather similar in output in many situations.
• Debris Gambit: Same as Juke, you want to focus;
• Swarm Tactics: At best you could use it to get I5 shots. I do not think that's so valuable, but maybe there is something with Tallie;
• Intimidation: Only on Zari who doesn't mind bumping. Otherwise... don't;
• Daredevil: Can't be used with the free boost, which is red. So doing a hard1 boost loses you an action. Don't;
• Marksmanship: I think so far the only reason to use it I've seen was on Seyn Marna, otherwise this EPT is just not good.

Unclear to me:

• Squad Leader: If you really want to coordinate, bring Han with C-3PO, and not a 38+ point A-wing who has to stay close but won't contribute much - unless you want to spend even more points on him. I think points-starved Resistance can do better, and I don't see a two ship list that really benefits so much more if a coordinating Awing is added instead of 30-40pt of other upgrades.
• Elusive: I had it in good, but after 6 games I'm not sure anymore. I think Awings prefer to run and shoot out the back instead of slooping/kturning. So by now I'd place it in bad, but I am not sure.

What do you think? Which combinations do you like most, for generics or for uniques?

Tallie with Heroic, Crack Shot, Advanced Optics and a Proton Rocket is a joy to fly; having the guns threaten your pursuit while lining up 5 dice on a large base is so much fun.

I pretty much agree with what you wrote. The PS1 is probably the worst pilot in the expansion which actually says a lot. They are all costed at a point that you can run 5 with a good amount of variation. Zari is probably the second worst, but he is 1 point more than the generic i3 so it isn't a terrible ability for 1 point.

As for talents: I'm thinking heroic/crack on the generics, Zari, and Tallie and trick/heroic on Greer and Lulo. If Lulo is in a 3 ship squad, I may go with Lone Wolf/Trick instead.

Predator also maybe a solid choice for Tallie and Lulo.

Sounds about right.

Trick Shot sounds OK on paper, with rear arcs theoretically making it easier to trigger, but on-table it might not really work out.

I'm almost surely in Heroic/Crack Shot or H/CS/Advanced Optics, but thinking about Juke the other day (inspired by @FriendofYoda ), there was something that occurred to me.

At Init 5, Tallie will frequently shoot before she defends. In which case, Heroic/Juke with an Evade does about as much damage (against a 2-or-3-green defending ship which is unwilling or unable to spend a focus token) as Heroic alone if you're willing to spend a focus for your red dice. On defense the Evade is about as good as a Focus. So you kinda get double-duty if you can attack and defend with the Evade token--about the same damage as spending a Focus on offense, about the same evades as spending a Focus on defense. Notably, this doesn't really hold true for L'ulo with stress; it only really works for 2-red/3-green.

Now, for something like a Black Squadron Ace TIE Fighter, this observation doesn't get very far. At Init 3, it'll often defend and need to spend it's token before attacking.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Sounds about right.

Trick Shot sounds OK on paper, with rear arcs theoretically making it easier to trigger, but on-table it might not really work out.

I'm almost surely in Heroic/Crack Shot or H/CS/Advanced Optics, but thinking about Juke the other day (inspired by @FriendofYoda ), there was something that occurred to me.

At Init 5, Tallie will frequently shoot before she defends. In which case, Heroic/Juke with an Evade does about as much damage (against a 2-or-3-green defending ship which is unwilling or unable to spend a focus token) as Heroic alone if you're willing to spend a focus for your red dice. On defense the Evade is about as good as a Focus. So you kinda get double-duty if you can attack and defend with the Evade token--about the same damage as spending a Focus on offense, about the same evades as spending a Focus on defense. Notably, this doesn't really hold true for L'ulo with stress; it only really works for 2-red/3-green.

Now, for something like a Black Squadron Ace TIE Fighter, this observation doesn't get very far. At Init 3, it'll often defend and need to spend it's token before attacking.

Even if Tallie is attacking first, focus is still better for offense than Juke/Evade. On defense, an evade/focus are close, but focus is slightly better with 3 dice. Juke is only good on ships that can focus/evade stack (or evade plus some sort of offensive mod). Advanced Optics is a much better upgrade on a-wings than Juke.

Why not Intimidation? At I3 you're still moving before most of the field and they're excellent bumpers.

10 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Why not Intimidation? At I3 you're still moving before most of the field and they're excellent bumpers.

Plus you can block one enemy and still shoot the other one that gets past you with a rear shot.

41 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Even if Tallie is attacking first, focus is still better for offense than Juke/Evade. On defense, an evade/focus are close, but focus is slightly better with 3 dice. Juke is only good on ships that can focus/evade stack (or evade plus some sort of offensive mod). Advanced Optics is a much better upgrade on a-wings than Juke.

Juke is hedging your bets on still having a defensive mod and less offense vs. more damage on offense but modless on defense. I don't think it's a clear cut decision, particularly on L'ulo.

1 hour ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Zari is probably the second worst, but he is 1 point more than the generic i3 so it isn't a terrible ability for 1 point.

I don't know.. Unless he somehow ends up stressed at the end of his maneuver, he can always get a token plus boost or turret rotate. No matter what. I'm purposefully smashing him into everything without a care in the world and always have a shot, usually with a mod.

28 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Why not Intimidation? At I3 you're still moving before most of the field and they're excellent bumpers.

Huh. Interesting. Zari would dig this.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

• Elusive: I had it in good, but after 6 games I'm not sure anymore. I think Awings prefer to run and shoot out the back instead of slooping/kturning. So by now I'd place it in bad, but I am not sure.

Elusive Pattern Crackshot Tallie (with Prockets if able) is my new favorite ship.

Tallie wants to keep her arc forward to trigger ability. It's pretty crazy what it does.

A standard A-wing with 3 defense dice and 1 focus vs a 3 die target lock/focus attack:

Tallie triggering ability on herself with elusive and focus

Makes her a lot harder to hit. You could also use the first chart if you use your ability on Poe. It's great!

I agree with pilots like L'Ulo Elusive makes no sense, but I'm still betting Pattern for a focus on the sloop is probably still very worth it.

To me Pattern is stapled to A-wings.

Now lets look at the math with Evade vs focus:

3 die defense with evade vs 3 die focus/lock attack

3 die defense with focus vs 3 die focus/lock attack

yes Evade will negate more damage, but I think it's less useful overall. Focus is more flexible and can still be used on offense. If your flying A-wing right they should not be in enemy arcs anyways, especially Tallie and most definitely L'Ulo.

Juke/Trickshot/Pattern L'Ulo is probably a good call.

6 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Why not Intimidation? At I3 you're still moving before most of the field and they're excellent bumpers.

I see different reasons for different pilots/squads, so we'd have to go into specifics:
A mini swarm of 5 Awings can't afford it for all, simple as that. Flying a single or two dedicated bumpers telegraphs too strongly (e.g. getting points by removing 2 heroics/cracks per intimidate) and costs too much flexibility.

Adding a single, blocking generic I3... I don't see it being the best use of 37 points.

1. You can't add squad leader, because that Awing without focus in the middle of everything will pop. And even with a focus, does that one -1agility , the effect of a tractor, have the weight of 37pt? In a resistance squad? The cheapest Poe is 71, and a 90pt Bomber or YT1300 is on the low end.
2. The benefit you gain is to get ahead in actions, right? Blocking means basically a -1 in actions for your opponent, similar to using Juke/Crackshot. I'd argue that a +1 on your side in actions is the same, maybe worth a bit less. So if you spend 37 points to get -1 for the opponent, you could also spend it on plenty good upgrades that give much more than just this -1.

As for Zari... I made an exception for her, but thinking more about it I have to disagree with myself here.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I see different reasons for different pilots/squads, so we'd have to go into specifics:
A mini swarm of 5 Awings can't afford it for all, simple as that. Flying a single or two dedicated bumpers telegraphs too strongly (e.g. getting points by removing 2 heroics/cracks per intimidate) and costs too much flexibility.

Adding a single, blocking generic I3... I don't see it being the best use of 37 points.

1. You can't add squad leader, because that Awing without focus in the middle of everything will pop. And even with a focus, does that one -1agility , the effect of a tractor, have the weight of 37pt? In a resistance squad? The cheapest Poe is 71, and a 90pt Bomber or YT1300 is on the low end.
2. The benefit you gain is to get ahead in actions, right? Blocking means basically a -1 in actions for your opponent, similar to using Juke/Crackshot. I'd argue that a +1 on your side in actions is the same, maybe worth a bit less. So if you spend 37 points to get -1 for the opponent, you could also spend it on plenty good upgrades that give much more than just this -1.

As for Zari... I made an exception for her, but thinking more about it I have to disagree with myself here.

it comes down to the fact that an a-wing wants to focus 90% of the time or it's going to die. the i5's can dodge arcs, to a point, so that will allow you to setup things like target locks or other shenanigans. but spending points on additional actions is not worth it.

I scroll up but:

Crackshot > Predator

A-wings often don't live long enough to get bullseye multiple times a game. Crackshot is a much better value over the course of the game than Predator. The exception might be Tallie, but I still think Crack/Ellusive is the best on her.

17 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I don't know.. Unless he somehow ends up stressed at the end of his maneuver, he can always get a token plus boost or turret rotate. No matter what. I'm purposefully smashing him into everything without a care in the world and always have a shot, usually with a mod.

By second worst I don't think he is bad. This is one of the better expansions FFG has released - the only reason I think the i1s are the worst is because they lack EPTs and for two points more you get i3 with EPT slots. Even then, they are solid blockers with double reposition.

8 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Juke/Trickshot/Pattern L'Ulo is probably a good call.

That's interesting. To me, Heroic is only stapled to L'ulo, but only him. The defensive double blank occurs quite often (14%), and he will be constantly stressed if my games are any indication.

One minor nitpick for the elusive: you added the 4th die only for the elusive. Otherwise it's a +24% of 0 hits, not the massive +40%. But you are of course right that Tallie profits a lot from it!

Elusive + Pattern on Tallie (possibly with predator, so I see why you brought it up. But Tallie can dodge for quite some time, right?) and Juke+Pattern on Lulo. Those are nice ideas!

Why are you guys doing red moves with A-Wings that can fire behind them? I get Tallie's ability, but I think head sim has that proc'ing a lot more than real life.

12 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Why are you guys doing red moves with A-Wings that can fire behind them? I get Tallie's ability, but I think head sim has that proc'ing a lot more than real life.

This. A-wings are cheap, I will keep them that way by avoiding too situational upgrades (like Pattern on a ship that fires with its butt).

18 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Why are you guys doing red moves with A-Wings that can fire behind them? I get Tallie's ability, but I think head sim has that proc'ing a lot more than real life.

Tallie is the one who wants to do the red moves, hence pattern. I've been keeping a running tally (no pun intended) of how often her ability procs. Only one game it has proc'd less than 3 times for me (that being 2, and I had her out of position most of the game because reasons). The most was 6 times, but that was during Rey/Poe and Rey's pretty easy to land Tallie's ability on. but... I'm going to toot my own horn and say I'm an A-wing god. *disclaimer, I suck terribly*

The others yes, flipping the arc is usually more valuable than doing the sloop.

12 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Why are you guys doing red moves with A-Wings that can fire behind them? I get Tallie's ability, but I think head sim has that proc'ing a lot more than real life.

I can tell you in my experience that I very rarely use the red moves. In fact, I rarely use the white moves (though obviously a lot more than the red). The dial is SO VERY BLUE and my A-wings are almost always stressed once battle is joined.

I can tell you this: the number of times I've actually executed a red maneuver on an RZ-2 is probably pretty close to the number of times I've intentionally dialed in a red maneuver on my stressed L'ulo in order to execute a white non-turn maneuver. (I have done this exactly once.) I can't believe I'm saying this, but with L'ulo there are actually times when there is too much blue on the RZ-2's dial. EVERY SINGLE STRAIGHT AND BANK IS BLUE. More than half of the dial is blue. God I love these things

6 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Tallie is the one who wants to do the red moves, hence pattern. I've been keeping a running tally (no pun intended) of how often her ability procs. Only one game it has proc'd less than 3 times for me (that being 2, and I had her out of position most of the game because reasons). The most was 6 times, but that was during Rey/Poe and Rey's pretty easy to land Tallie's ability on. but... I'm going to toot my own horn and say I'm an A-wing god. *disclaimer, I suck terribly*

The others yes, flipping the arc is usually more valuable than doing the sloop.

What are you playing against? I've been playing against primarily small bases which don't fly in formation, so I've been treating trying to line up Tallie's ability as more of an incidental plus, than a priority.

4 minutes ago, Maui. said:

I can tell you in my experience that I very rarely use the red moves. In fact, I rarely use the white moves (though obviously a lot more than the red). The dial is SO VERY BLUE and my A-wings are almost always stressed once battle is joined.

I can tell you this: the number of times I've actually executed a red maneuver on an RZ-2 is probably pretty close to the number of times I've intentionally dialed in a red maneuver on my stressed L'ulo in order to execute a white non-turn maneuver. (I have done this exactly once.) I can't believe I'm saying this, but with L'ulo there are actually times when there is too much blue on the RZ-2's dial. EVERY SINGLE STRAIGHT AND BANK IS BLUE. More than half of the dial is blue. God I love these things

I have a problem now where every Resistance list I create I add L'ulo to start. He's my favorite Resistance faction ship right now. His ability just works so well with the RZ-2 design.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

What are you playing against? I've been playing against primarily small bases which don't fly in formation, so I've been treating trying to line up Tallie's ability as more of an incidental plus, than a priority. 

I agree here. I still just don't love any bullseye ability with all these small aces flying around. Maybe when the Ghost meta returns they'll be really good!

7 minutes ago, Maui. said:

my stressed L'ulo

1 minute ago, dadocollin said:

I add L'ulo to start.

how do you two build your L'ulo?

1 hour ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Even if Tallie is attacking first, focus is still better for offense than Juke/Evade. On defense, an evade/focus are close, but focus is slightly better with 3 dice. Juke is only good on ships that can focus/evade stack (or evade plus some sort of offensive mod). Advanced Optics is a much better upgrade on a-wings than Juke.

2 red dice, presuming no focus, or an unwillingness to spend focus:

• vs 1 green die
  • Heroic (and also Juke if the opponent does spend focus): 0.764
  • Focus/Heroic: 1.220
  • Juke/Evade/Heroic: 1.063
  • Focus/Heroic/Optic: 1.488
• vs 2 green dice
  • Heroic: 0.540
  • Focus/Heroic: 0.903
  • Juke/Evade/Heroic: 0.950
  • Focus/Heroic/Optics: 1.133
• vs 3 green dice
  • Heroic: 0.376
  • Focus/Heroic: 0.652
  • Juke/Evade/Heroic: 0.796
  • Focus/Heroic/Optics: 0.834

So clearly, Optics does the most damage, and there are cases where Juke/Evade does more damage than a Focus token. But the benefit of Juke isn't that it does more damage. It's that it doesn't spend the token on offense, and you'll have a token to spend on Defense as well. An Optics A-Wing will spend a focus token on offense a lot more than a non-Optics one,. I know half the point of A-Wings is that you can get out of arc and won't take a return shot, but that doesn't always work out.

There are downsides, too. Juke is also really fragile. Get attacked by Init 6 or a first-player Init 5, and it doesn't work. Go up against Luke or Leebo, Juke doesn't matter. Dodge your opponent's arc, and they'll have no need to save focus for offense.

There is a benefit (potential offensive and defensive mods), there is a drawback (juke fragility), there is a cost. I don't know how it all adds up. But Juke does more damage against 2 or 3 unfocused green dice than just focus.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

how do you two build your L'ulo?

Heroic/Crack or Heroic/Prockets/Marksmanship. Usually the former.

I tried running Poe/Tallie/L'ulo and it didn't work. I chopped off a bunch of upgrades and added another A-wing and it's muuuuuuuch better.

57 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

how do you two build your L'ulo?

I've been running him lean with just Heroic right now. I'm going to try Trick Shot and maybe Advanced Optics. I think with the dual arcs, TS might be a little more useful than usual based on flying the A-wings a few times at this point. Again, with the high initiative aces (and all the tugboats still out there), big rocks are here to stay right now.

I love lists that have uniform initiative, so I've been trying him with Tallie, Ello, and Nien. Going to try Rey out with some i5s in the next few days. That's the one Resistance ship I haven't dug into yet. I've also only got two A-wings at this point, and while I don't see myself getting five, a third is tempting at this point, as the X-wings just cost too much for filler.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

So clearly, Optics does the most damage, and there are cases where Juke/Evade does more damage than a Focus token. But the benefit of Juke isn't that it does more damage. It's that it doesn't spend the token on offense, and you'll have a token to spend on Defense as well. An Optics A-Wing will spend a focus token on offense a lot more than a non-Optics one,. I know half the point of A-Wings is that you can get out of arc and won't take a return shot, but that doesn't always work out.

There are downsides, too. Juke is also really fragile. Get attacked by Init 6 or a first-player Init 5, and it doesn't work. Go up against Luke or Leebo, Juke doesn't matter. Dodge your opponent's arc, and they'll have no need to save focus for offense.

There is a benefit (potential offensive and defensive mods), there is a drawback (juke fragility), there is a cost. I don't know how it all adds up. But Juke does more damage against 2 or 3 unfocused green dice than just focus. 

I think we should distinguish two cases here: I5 uniques and I3 generics. For the latter, Juke is out of the question entirely. So reducing to I5s (=L'ulo and Tallie):

• L'ulo is constantly stressed and on 3/2 instead of 2/3. That means:
  • Juke is offensively strictly worse up to 3 dice, and the evade is defensively slightly better. And with Juke you surrender completely to dice variance, which is admittedly not that bad for 2 reds but worse for 3. L'ulo can even get to R1 where Juke gets again worse.
  • L'ulo will only have this advantage against I5 if with inibid (again expensive), or against lower I ships. According to the larger tournaments so far, the amount of I5s is really large and you will basically always have one to play against. To me that's too uncertain Juke usage to bank on it that much. The choice of focus+heroic is safer.
• Tallie:
  • can get to 4 greens with her ability, where evade loses all defensive advantage over focus. Granted that is maybe rare, but something to take into consideration (also obstructed and r3, which is more frequent!)
  • Has the same PS problem.

32 minutes ago, gennataos said:

What are you playing against? I've been playing against primarily small bases which don't fly in formation, so I've been treating trying to line up Tallie's ability as more of an incidental plus, than a priority.

game 1: Poe Rey

Game 2: Scum swarm

Game 3: Kavil and friends

Game 4: cloak and choke

Game 5: FO Aces

and yes, don't force the bullseye it will happen naturally. I really like to play in the rocks if I can. This helps me create lanes that either Tallie has bullseye or she is defending through a rock if she is in arc at all. I flank with her pretty hard in my list while Poe and Vennie do the work.