Hi!

I've been testing this deck last night and did pretty well. I'm focusing my attention on this build for future tournaments (and on the Dark Elf one I'll post later) and I really need some feedback/advices...

Here's the list...After this, you'll find a couple of hints and comments on "how it works"...

UNITS (12)

3x Shadow Warrior

2x Caradryan

2x Illyriel

3x Sword Master of Hoeth

2x Dragonmage

SUPPORTS (16)

3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

3x Warpstone Excavation

3x Keystone Forge

3x Dwarf/High Elf Alliance

2x Armoury

2x Contested Village

TACTICS (22)

3x Flames of the Phoenix

3x Banish

2x Pilgrimage

3x Innovation

3x Gifts of Aenarion

3x Master Rune of Valaya

3x Demolition!

2x Gift of Life

TOT: 50

It's a hard to play deck...It needs effort and patience...

All you have to do at the beginning is to collect resources and wait, using "jumping back" effects and cancellation to get some time...You can control Supports with Demolition...

YOU HAVE to slow down your oppo as hard as you can, until you get the PHOENIX and "restart" the game...

The THROWER is the Biggest finisher, but you can also rely a lot on resources and card advantage to get everything back with the Flames and then play what you have in the Battefield, to strike for the final attack.

In almost any game, that's what happened: wait for resources, cancel, remove, jump back, play Shadow Warrior, play Caradryen, discarding opponent's key cards, then use Flames to reset and Demolition to destroy "resources"...

When you're ready, play the Thrower with a single Developement, keep cards in hand and play at the end of the opponent's turn, using the thrower if you didn't do anything else during the turn...

Slow win, pretty near to deck out in a couple of matches, but always pretty competitive, even against Orc powerful rush...

Nobody can do anything against Orc's "classic" turn 1 "zone-kill"...That's Nobody's Business

What do you think...Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

I like the concept and just played a similar deck yesterday for the first time.

I used this one but with 3x Great Book of Grudges included:

http://deckbox.org/sets/3335

In the first game I made major mistake by dropping Flames of the Phoenix as development and a banner into kingdom instead of quest. I quickly made resources but couldn't manage to draw more cards because I had no RPT in play at this point. But okay I saw the potential in this decktype and knew what I made wrong. Treasure Vaults together with Warpstone Excavations and Armouries are good resource gatherers and have a good chance to be played by dwarf cannon crew effect. Great Book of Grudges on dwarf miner questing on Wake the dragons makes a bothersome target for your opponent and helps you setting up your Aenarion circle.

Your deck has more units and doesn't rely on bolt thrower only like mine. I have to play way more matches and find out what I have to change but I will orient myself on your unit selection. It looks solid and your description was nearly the same what I thought about when I created mine but I cutted most of the elf units and focused on dwarfs "getting in play" synergy effects with Flames.

I really think that the power of such deck comes from its abitlity to product massive barrel in a turn, fast (I may be wrong, but the less you have to spend time to defense better it is ), and it did not seem to be the case for this one. Treasure Vault +( Armory )+ Contested Stronghold are really great for fast massive production....

I think also that those two hero you chose caradryan + Illyriel are nice in this one.

In this deck I don't believe in the effectiveness of sword master even if they seem to be great (because they only can defend 1 zone), I really prefer dragon mage + Defend Tor Aendris + maybe Gromril Armor but I think that Dragon Mage + defend is strong enougth for the needs of the game. This combo gives you a potentiel Card draw + barrel + strong defence in each of your zones what else .

Yeah, I was thinkin' about Sword Master too...

I just need more testing to understand which zone I prefer to protect...Aside KZ, I usually focus on BZ, because of Illyriel, Sword Master and the Thrower...So, Alliance and Warpstone usually go to the QZ and leave it to the oppo..:Everything will change with a DragonMage focus...

I've to think about it...

Then, I'd really like to find place for Treasure Vaults, but as you see it's pretty difficult to choose....

Any suggestions for these little changes?

GRILLE: mistakes are very common with a deck like this!

I'm not saying this because I've built it up, but...It's a very complex deck, I don't know if it's well-built, but I'm pretty sure it's a solid concept that is "similar" to a combo deck (that's why I call it Control-Combo), cause the aim is to slow down the oppo, until you can do 2 different things:

- Flames + Everything back in the BZ for a massive attack,

- Flames + Thrower resource engine.

Choices are difficult to take and a little mistake will ruin the whole game.

I have a similar HE deck, and yes it does require some good decision making right off the bat.

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

I agree that Swordmasters are limited in their use compared to Dragonmage, but i've found that they really help as a back-up in the beginning (and at least can deal some damage to the capital when attacking) and also create another target other than Dragonmage on Tor Aendris (with possibly Gromril - which is kinda questionable to include given the return to hand nature of deck)

I went with spearmen over Shadow guys because of the extra power, but i'm not sure how much of a difference that makes.

Illyriel + Asuryan's Cleansing / Caradryan + Disdain nice combos but good on their own as well.

Treasure Vaults + Armoury + (contested stronghold/fortress - i like both equally) + Innovation are really key here for Repeater & Flames.

Gift of Life seems nice, I've never really needed it though. You may want to consider Second Sight in its place if chosing to include Disdain at least. Also helps a lot with decision-making and when to use Flames more effectively.

If you are using High Elf Spearmen for power have you considdered playing Silver Helm Detachment instead? It's basically the same if you are "flaming" them 3 turns later and they have 1HP more.

I never got a use for Gift of Life because my discard pile doesn't get feed by units most of the time. I like Stand your Ground much more because it's nearly never a dead card and i like the potential in self discard options like demolition! but in a HE unit focused deck Gift of Life would become way better i think. I hope high elfes will soon have access to some "get in play" or "leave play" effect HE units. They will benifit very much from this.

I have to get more experience in this game and wether I have to include disdain but Second Sight seems like a good tool to "check" wether you have to spare 2 resources after your turn or not.

I agree on the Silver Helm Detachments. HE usually has a lot of trouble with opposing Vile Sorceresses, so I'd run 3 of the Detachments before I started on the Spearmen (which are still a fine unit, regardless). You often want 3x Envoy and Shadow Warriors are tempting - and at that point you have a hell of a lot of stuff that is just cold to a Sorceress. As a bonus, all the HE ways of dealing with a Sorceress vary between bad and terrible.

Thanks SIlver Helm Detachment certainly does seem to work better - kind of forgot about them to be honest!

A little...Well...Not too little update...

I'm near the next step of the league and I want to bring this deck...

Tonight something happened in my mind and figured out the FOLLOWING list... It has something WEIRD in it...

You'll notice it...

It has NO units.

Here it is.

SUPPORTS 26

3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

3x Keystone Forge

3x Treasure Vaults

3x Armoury

3x Contested Village

3x Contested Fortress

3x Warpstone Excavation

3x Dwarf/High Elf Alliance

2x Temple of Vaul

TACTICS 24

3x High Elf Disdain

3x Flames of The Pheonix

3x Banish

3x Pilgrimage

3x Master Rune of Valaya

3x Gifts of Aenarion

3x Demolition!!!

3x Innovation

Now it's a combo deck, basically. The thing is: collect as many resources as you can, use High Elf Disdain to avoid "Mob Up", support destruction and the like.

The IDEA of this new list is simple: take advantage of the no-units factor, thinkin' about the fact that your oppo has lots of useless cards.

Focus on cancellation/jump back to slow down, gain some time with Forge + Fortress and quickly increase the money to cast "Pheonix" (if necessary to avoid "toughness" guys) or huge amounts of indirect damage, to close the deal in a single turn (or the like).

I've not tested it yet, but I wanna give it a try...Theorically, you can collect an incredible number of resources with this particular set up and cast something like 23-25 indirect damages in a turn.

Suggestions are welcome...

This kind of deck definitely works and has a great matchup against a bunch of the field. I don't think it beats Orc/Skaven though. There are many, many ways to build the deck but they all do pretty much the same thing.

When testing, I would stock up on No-Doze 'cos it's painful for you and your opponent once the novelty value wears off...

Your list looks pretty solid, but I would definitely consider Contested Stronghold. In the late game that can add up to a lot of points on the thrower - and it's a building so it also triggers off Treasure Vaults. You usually want to be developing your Kingdom quite a bit anyway to turn late game Innovation into your critical turn damage. Also think about Master Rune of Dismay - it's a very nice combo with Flames of the Phoenix - but having said that, the triple loyalty is pretty painful, so it may not be fast enough. Also, it's a rune not a building so it doesn't work with the Vaults.

this is my take on this type of deck...

UNITS (3)
3 Dragonmage

TACTIC (23)
3 Demolition!
2 Ancient Map
3 High Elf's Disdain
3 Master Rune of Valaya
3 Banish
3 Flames of the Pheonix
3 Gifts of Aenarion
3 Pilgrimage

QUEST (2)
1 Defend Tor Aendris
1 Wake the Dragons

SUPPORT (23)
3 Contested Village
3 Dwarf/High Elf Alliance
3 Keystone Forge
3 Contested Fortress
3 Repeater Bolt Thrower
3 Treasure Vaults
2 Abandoned Mine
3 Contested Stronghold

SIDE
3 Blessing of Isha
2 Caradryan
3 Zealot Hunter
3 Sword Masters of Hoeth
1 Marius the Righteous

Since you can afford to pay 3 for Valaya/Damolition/Forge I suggest to Banners, and add Asuryan's Cleansing, it can really help witch rush and bought you the time.

* suggest to banners.

rasdsaris said:

At first, thanks for your suggestions...

I'll keep Asuryan for the sideboard (we allow sideboarding in our national league), since it's really useful against rush, but in the next tournament won't be a lot of rush decks.

Thanks to made think about it.

I was thinkin' about removing banners too...But...They're there mostly for HE loyalty (and for Dwarves stuff I'll put in the sideboard)...With them I can manage to play early Flames/Banish/Gifts (remember that I don't have any other HE stuff, aside 2x Temple of Vaaul).

But, since you (and others) have been so gentle to help me, I ask something...

The next tournament is near...

I'm seriously thinkin' about playin' this deck and I'd really like to fine tune it...I won't be able to playtest until Sunday...

Mostly I'd be glad to hear if someone thinks I should put more removals in it...Even if, in any case, I probably won't be able to oppose 3 turns wins of heavy-rush decks (nobody can, right now) anyway, I'd really like to be "as tough as I can", so to say.

Right now, I've just to "pray" for a slow start from the oppo, play 1/2 supports per turn, cancel damage and start bouncing stuff back, until the mighty thrower comes out (with Disdain in hand to protect it) to destroy everything in its path.

What can I add/remove to obtain more consistancy (if needed/able)?

Thanks in advance, guys.

What is your opinion about Wake the Mountain and Abandoned Mine? If you have a Innovation in your Hand Wake the Mountain wouldn't cost you much or nothing depending on wether you already have Keystone Forge or a Banner on your Board and it helps setting up Treasure Vaults quickly. As for Abandoned Mine I use it often to "save" important cards against scouts or other card denial things and when your combo is complete you take it and play it or play a new RPT after your RPT in play got destroyed.

Thanks!!!

Wake the Mountain is in my little "alternative list"...I'd really like to add it, caus it's a "single-turn" Treasure vaults trigger and a great defense/boost for innovation...

The thing is...If I'm not lucky, I can down some important stuff for the moment...And if my oppo gets rid of Abandoned Mine, I'm out.

So...What I'm doing right now, is playin' a dev per turn for the first 3 turns, just in anticipation of the upcoming Vaults/Armoury... What about including just a couple of Mines to get them back if needed?

I don't know...This deck is drivin' me insane...It's pretty similar to a combo deck and each choice is pretty tough...

Thanks again.

my thoughts:

- Asuryan Cleansing is always good, not only vs rush, in first few turns, it allows your opp to play only one thing per turn

- what are you putting in quest? excavation and banners ?

- wake the mountain has a lot of loyality, and you need it mostly when you still do not have enough of dwarf symbols

- about making fast 3 developments in kingdom, there is one thing: City Gates ( it is Building, has 1 power, and gets you second turn 3 develop, so in turn three you can get about 9 or more resources, and has only 1 loyal symbol)

- Contested Stronghold is good, but, with it you have 9 limited supports/buildings, sometimes you can stuck with this problem, maybe: +1 Vaul Temple, -1 Stronghold

This deck is legit enough for me to want 3x Mob Up! in the Skaven maindeck.

And I think its fair to say this deck is the first real degenerate archetype... Not that it isnt a creative deck idea, and definitely hilarious to play the first few times, but this is just degenerate as hell and really, really bad for the game if this is a tier 1 deck. Point in favor of having sideboards. Skaven can accomodate the Mob Up! in the maindeck though, for now, which will probably keep this from being a real deck choice until another archetype comes along to punish that kind of loose deck construction.

For the builders in this deck thread... don't leave home without 3x High Elf's Disdain...

The other thing I would say about this deck archetype is that the unitless plan is definitely the one to go with. Having units just hurts you - it makes it easier for your opponent to disrupt you and makes Flames of the Phoenix much less effective. I think that Repeater Bolt Thrower is only actually good in the unitless decks.

There are lots of different ways to build it but they all come down to essentially the same plan. Amass tons of supports for a hojillion resources while playing Master Rune and Gifts over and over, then Flames all their units back to hand and fill them with a whole lot of bolts. Having played both f7eleven's version that doesn't play many hammers to quest, instead relying on Reap What's Sown, as well as the version that relies on supports (typically alliances and warpstones, since they aren't buildings for Treasure Vaults) for card draw, I prefer the support-draw version - it just seems more consistent.

I've been playing Alliances and Excavations to the Quest way more since I really started liking Treasure Vaults. I still wouldn't rely on just Treasure Vaults and Armories for your resources though.

Here's my current version of the deck:

3x Innovation

3x Second Sight

3x Master Rune of Valaya

3x Banish

3x Wake the Mountain

3xFlames of the Pheonix

3x Gifts of Aenarion

3x Reap What's Sown

3x Warpstone Excavation

3x Contested Village

3x City Gates

3x Dwarf/High Elf Alliance

2x Shrine of Asuryan

3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

3x Treasure Vaults

3x Abandoned Mine

3x Contested Village

I can't wait to add Mining Tunnels!

3x Second Sight

3x Shrine of Asuryan

I do not like those cards at all. Also, you have no Disdains which means you lose to Mob Up and Pillage becomes super annoying.

I would cut those 6 and add 2x Keystone Forge, 1x Armoury, 3x High Elf's Disdain.

Honestly, I think this archetype is pretty broken and not good for the game at all. It does actually have a solid shot at beating the Skaven - it may actually be the deck that gets the cookie for >50% against my Skaven deck (right up till the point where the Skaven run Mob Up, then it's probably sub 50% again). I haven't tested it enough to know for sure but so far my thrower deck is >50% vs. Orc/Skaven. Testing that matchup is not a lot of fun.

Too bad you're not in Baltimore. I love playing this deck!

In that case, I recommend you seek immediate psychiatric attention.

I wouldn' t bother that much about this build while Skaven are destroying the general meta.

This deck is not that combo-ish unbeatable T2 win deck...It's slow, it needs time and effort to work. Most of the times you don't have all the pieces, you need a couple of disdains in hand and Pheonix doesn't show up.

I've tested it seriously and most of the times, when I win, I do it with a bunch of cards left in the deck. I've lost for deck-end too.

Don't bother...This is not a T1 deck. It's strong, but I guess, even if it's "nearly" a T1 deck, it's pretty fair, considering that everyone is playin' skaven out there and THAT's pretty annoying, actually.

No, it doesn't win on turn 2. It reminds me a lot more of the "turbo"-Fog decks from Magic which, similarly, lock out creature attacks via damage prevention and win on turn 728 (well, that's what it feels like).

It seems pretty good though. The DE/Skaven matchup is decent - it seems to come down to whether they get 2+ early scouts. Orc/Skaven is tougher but very winnable, especially if they do not have Mob Up!