As every control-combo deck, it suffers hand-destruction...there's really nothing to do against it right now.

Anyway, I think it has great chances against most of the decks primarly because it's unitless (it means: useless stuff in oppo's hand most of the time) and then, I usually keep 1-2 High Elf Disdain in hand until the end of the game, 'cause I wanna close the deal EXACTLY when the thrower's out and I get something like 1200 resources...

During playtesting, I started dealing 30-35 damage per turn...I did 53 damage, once.

DB_Cooper said:

What turn was that?

I disagree w/ the statement that the bolt thrower deck is not tier 1. Its the only deck strong enough to post a decent record against Skaven right now. Most definitely a tier 1 deck, even vs. Skaven using Mob Up!. Incidentally, I think this deck, when properly built, is probably enough to convince me that Orc/Skaven is the correct Skaven build; without Mob Up and the speed of Spider Riders/Choppa I think Chaos/ or DE/ Skaven decks give up too much equity against this deck to be viable.

This is all assuming people correctly build & play the bolt thrower deck, and that it starts being run in reasonable enough numbers that Skaven builders have to respect it. After a few dozen test games, I can definitely say that I do.

This deck is real.

ddm5182 said:

Just a little "prologue"...We started the playtesting with this deck when noone used to post it around here...And I've to say that it has nothing more than other archetypes..

It's strong, ok...I'm not the world champion (and I don't care about it), but I guess that EVEN IF this version is pretty solid, it doesn't win more than any other deck we used to test.... Skaven builds are still dangerous and T1...Maybe some Empire based decks are pretty strong, but things are going to change and I don't see any problem in a deck like this.

As I said...Maybe it's a competitive deck, but it's not one of that "Turn 2 wins"...It needs time, skill and effort...

Just to make a bunch of examples (playtested):

- if you're not so lucky, when you got your Treasure Vaults destroyed, the engine stops...

- if your oppo is strong, it keeps support destruction stuff until the end;

- we (in our league) play in a 2 best out of 3 environment with SIDEBOARD...Everyone can tech against it.

- lose against rush, if well-built. Anyway, there's nothing to do with them if they start as always...

Maybe it's strong and REAL (I like the expression you used) maybe, but not more than any other good deck around.

NOTE: our meta is not that "Skaven-centered" right now (2 "usual" Skaven players in 12 players), but more Destruction-centered in general, just to let you understand the directions of my comments.

This deck can clearly lose to rush. I was posting ~40-50% winrate while learning to play the matchup with Skaven, and after including Mob Up! mainboard, I think the winrate for Orc/Skaven is in the 45-55% range.

Incidentally, your playgroup's use of sideboards probably is and will continue to be a major factor in containing the bolt thrower menace. This deck is certainly a key example in favor of allowing sideboards in this game.

Anyway, I'll share some opposition pov to help further discussion on this deck. From a Skaven player's perspective, the key considerations for this matchup are:

1. Commit to power on the board before developing your resource engine. As in, if you have a choice between turn 1 innovate into double alliance or double clan moulder's elite, the latter is clearly the best possible choice, even if it leaves your kingdom/quest empty.
2. Related to 1, apply pressure early and consistently to a single zone until you burn it. Counterintuitively for an aggro player used to forcing opponents into bad blocks by spreading around damage between 2 zones, in this matchup you must burn a zone by turn 3-4 to have a reasonable chance to win. Once a zone is burnt, if you have developed a decent resource/draw engine you should be able to threaten to burn the second zone in a single un-fogged attack. You often have only a single turn where they don't have the fog and/or counterspell for your Mob Up! - that is your window of opportunity for a win.
3. Play around Flames by committing as few units to the board as you can, preferably masking the strength of your hand. Don't just dump Spider Riders and Choppas onto the board, and save your innovations/we'z biggas to recover after a Flames. After turn ~3-4, you must attack for lethal every turn to have a reasonable chance to win.
4. Develop every turn, or at least every turn you can. Math matters. Usually you want to develop Kingdom for explosive innovates when recovering from a Flames. Too, make sure you play around their miser's Verena. They probably don't pack Will of the Electors, but you cannot afford to get hit with a Verena at any phase of the game.
5. Play around Gifts by never attacking for more than you need to. They will have single-target bounce for your units, so sometimes you need to commit 1 extra, but never blindly attack with everything. This is the stuff blowouts are made of.
6. Save your Mob Ups for the critical turn. Ideally you want to play 2, or even 3, to force them to have a fog AND multiple counterspells in order to win.
7. When to use Pillage is probably the single most skill-testing element of the matchup. I often find it is correct to hit their draw engine early and hard if you have a reasonable amount of pressure on the board. Keeping them off resources is an impossibly uphill battle, but if you can prevent them from drawing fogs for even 1 turn you can steal games. But on the other hand, using Pillage in the midgame when they already have a full grip of cards can be a big error; it can be better to save it to force unprofitable bolt thrower activations by destroying the thrower with Gifts on the stack, etc.

There you have it. Hopefully I've done my part to make this matchup slightly less painful for Skaven players. As you can see, there is a lot here. The bolt thrower deck has a TON of matchup equity vs. anyone who isnt prepared for it. I would definitely sleeve a bolt thrower deck up if I was playing a tournament tomorrow. But its certainly winnable if the Skaven player is familiar with the match and slots 3 Mob Up! in their deck.

Thanks for the insight, even if I'm definitely not a Skaven player eheheh

Anyway, your thoughts are useful and absolutely good. Thanks!!!

I'd just like to point out a couple of things:

- when I used the word "we" related to sideboarding, I meant "in the ITALIAN NATIONAL league" (sorry for not being precise before) This is just to say that my thoughts and analysis are slightly different from a "no sideboarding" meta perspective.

- I wouldn't bother that much if I was playin' skaven. The first archetype of this deck played in our meta (now I mean my playgroup ) used to lose most of the time against rush/skaven. The point is (as you demonstrate, and that's honor for you) that you HAVE to be a "wonderful" player to avoid a big disaster...The crytical points are exactly the ones you talked about (I know them 'cause I'm here to streghten 'em )..."After Flames" recovery, "Gifts" (often used to get some resources back for a counter), fogs, surprise bounces...

But remember that this deck is not that simple too Just to say that our POVs are not so different one from another.

Cheers.

After a few testings and tunings, I came up with the idea to make this deck a bit original, without splashing Empire, avoiding some loyalty issues and focusing the remaining cards around the combo and some control...

Here's the thing...

SUPPORTS 29

3x Repeater Bolt Thrower

1x Temple of Vaul

3x Keystone Forge

3x Dwarf/High Elf Alliance

3x Treasure Vaults

2x Armoury

3x Contested Village

3x Contested Stronghold

3x Contested Fortress

3x Warpstone Excavation

2x Abandoned Mine

TACTICS 21

3x Flames of The Pheonix

3x High Elf's Disdain

3x Gifts of Aenarion

3x Demolition!

3x Master Rune of Valaya

3x Rune of Heart and Home

3x Innovation

TOT: 50

NOTE: I play this deck mostly for testing pourposes and have some fun. I know some choices may seem odd (i.e. Rune of Heart and Home), but I can get 10-11 resources pretty fast with this configuration and make it really work.

I don't care about the great amount of Limited cards neither: I develop each turn and it never seems to be a deal with the "game samples" I did.

I haven't tested it in THIS version yet, but I'll do it soon...I'll let you know.

Anyway, with some starting TEST-hands, it seems pretty solid and each turn you can down something useful...

What do you think?