Yes. Any attribute that does not exist is considered to be zero.

If you search the top 5 cards of the encounter deck with The Hidden Way and find no location, does the card whiff entirely? Or do you still resolve the "then" effect?

21 minutes ago, player3351457 said:

If you search the top 5 cards of the encounter deck with The Hidden Way and find no location, does the card whiff entirely? Or do you still resolve the "then" effect?

You do not resolve the 2nd sentence because of the semantics of then:

If the effect text of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved (or be true) in full before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved

[RR Then , http://www.lotr-lcg-quest-companion.gamersdungeon.net/#Rule603 ]

This "then" is new to me. It seems, that I are playing house rules here. :)

Especially, because the "then" starts with a new sentence. For me it sounds like "do first, do a second thing, afterwards".

I am used to a different wording from other games: "do X to Y", where Y is a positive thing and X some sort of cost. That would be much more clearer - at least for me.

3 hours ago, Flrbb said:

This "then" is new to me. It seems, that I are playing house rules here.

Especially, because the "then" starts with a new sentence. For me it sounds like "do first, do a second thing, afterwards".

I am used to a different wording from other games: "do X to Y", where Y is a positive thing and X some sort of cost. That would be much more clearer - at least for me.

What you describe is how then works in, say, Android: Netrunner.

But the RR way listed above is actually how it's always worked in LotR, or at least it dates back a long time: FAQ v1.1 from 2011 has the first "published" clarification (item 1.15).

Does that mean, I do not have to shuffle my deck after playing Fili, if I do not include Kili at all?

I would say you actually don't shuffle your deck. You didn't fulfill the first part to completion (you still search you deck whether he's included in it or not, but of course you can't put him into play, so the "then" does not take effect.

That would be true, except the rule is you always shuffle after you have searched your deck. See the FAQ 1.21. In this case, the "Then" clause on Fili and Kili is redundant.

Good catch. I guess I overthought things.

23 hours ago, rees263 said:

That would be true, except the rule is you always shuffle after you have searched your deck. See the FAQ 1.21. In this case, the "Then" clause on Fili and Kili is redundant.

That would be amazing... intentionally not include fili in your deck so that playing kili is a full deck scry 😅

On 5/29/2019 at 6:11 PM, rees263 said:

That would be true, except the rule is you always shuffle after you have searched your deck. See the FAQ 1.21. In this case, the "Then" clause on Fili and Kili is redundant.

Not quite, the actual rule is:

Quote

( 1.21 ) Search Effects

Whenever a player searches through a deck, that player shuffles the deck after searching it unless a card effect says otherwise . Players do not shuffle or change the order of a discard pile after searching it.

(1.15) The word “ then ”

If a card effect uses the word “ then ,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve

The ruling on "then" states only to shuffle, when the other dwarf has been brought into play. Thus i would interpret this as do not shuffle without the second dwarf.

I think one of the primary points of FAQ 1.21 is to make sure cards like Fili/Kili don't allow you to scry your entire deck order, heh.

I mean, it brings up a good point. Many cards just have the tagged on "Shuffle your deck." At the end of a card text (without the word "then"). The inclusion of "then" is a bit particular but I don't think the intention was to omit shuffling if you couldn't find the dwarf. I think it I'd just another case of inconsistent language used over the years.

7 hours ago, Amicus Draconis said:

The ruling on "then" states only to shuffle, when the other dwarf has been brought into play. Thus i would interpret this as do not shuffle without the second dwarf.

You are correct, I paraphrased. However, for these cards it is not logical to interpret that you shouldn't shuffle. The absence of an instruction to act does not equate to prohibiting the action. "Unless a card effect says otherwise" would require an explicit instruction that you don't shuffle or to do something else instead.

In Fili and Kili's case, you don't have to follow the "then" clause, but you should still follow the FAQ rule to shuffle because there is no contradictory card text.

Ally Galadriel is an example of such an exception because after searching the top 5 cards you are instructed to put them back in any order.

I don't know of any card that would currently let you search the whole deck without shuffling and quite possibly there will never be one.

8 hours ago, rees263 said:

You are correct, I paraphrased. However, for these cards it is not logical to interpret that you shouldn't shuffle. The absence of an instruction to act does not equate to prohibiting the action. "Unless a card effect says otherwise" would require an explicit instruction that you don't shuffle or to do something else instead.

In Fili and Kili's case, you don't have to follow the "then" clause, but you should still follow the FAQ rule to shuffle because there is no contradictory card text.

Ally Galadriel is an example of such an exception because after searching the top 5 cards you are instructed to put them back in any order.

I don't know of any card that would currently let you search the whole deck without shuffling and quite possibly there will never be one.

It would be logical to shuffle after such an effect takes place and it probably is just an inconsistent use of game terms as @player3351457 points out. Someone once said to me, when in doubt always take the harder option and thus I probably would shuffle anyway. Nevertheless, as the rules stand now, I see it as legal play not to shuffle.

There are not many player cards that allow a (partial) search without specifically asking for a shuffle: Bilbo and The Red Arrow . But in both cases, the FAQ would kick in and require shuffling. Mustering the Rohirrim on the other hand also uses "then" like Kili and Fili.

In a two player game, if player A has the three hunters contract and player B plays "Desperate Alliance" and trades a hero over to player A, and player A loads up the hero with three restricted attachments...

When the phase ends, must player B discard one of the restricted attachments?

16 minutes ago, player3351457 said:

In a two player game, if player A has the three hunters contract and player B plays "Desperate Alliance" and trades a hero over to player A, and player A loads up the hero with three restricted attachments...

When the phase ends, must player B discard one of the restricted attachments?

Yup. RR Restricted says:

Quote

Each character cannot have more than 2 attachments with the restricted keyword.

If a third restricted attachment is ever attached to a character, one of the restricted attachments must immediately be moved to its owner's discard pile.

In particular, the first sentence mandates that you can't keep that 3rd restricted attachment once the contract no longer applies to the hero.

20 minutes ago, sappidus said:

Yup. RR Restricted says:

In particular, the first sentence mandates that you can't keep that 3rd restricted attachment once the contract no longer applies to the hero.

My wiggle room was on the verb "attached." Meaning the process of attaching the attachment. Not already attached.

24 minutes ago, player3351457 said:

My wiggle room was on the verb "attached." Meaning the process of attaching the attachment. Not already attached.

Yeah, I get that, but the 1st sentence of the entry avoids that wording issue entirely, heh.

Can you play arrows from the trees during a quest in which you don't make engagement checks?

24 minutes ago, player3351457 said:

Can you play arrows from the trees during a quest in which you don't make engagement checks?

The Elevenses FAQ states ' "Play only after the staging step"… means it is only playable immediately after the staging step ends.' (This is a play restriction in RR parlance.)

The analogy for Arrows from the Trees would be, "Play only after making engagement checks" means it is only playable after making engagement checks.

So if you do not make engagement checks (say, Journey down the Anduin's stage 2B), you, well, do not make engagement checks, so you have not satisfied the play restriction for Arrows, and you cannot play it.

(Yes, I can see someone arguing that Arrows' "play only…" text literally just means, "Play only during the 5.3A action window, but it doesn't matter whether 5.3 happened or not." But I doubt that's what an official ruling would say.)

7 hours ago, sappidus said:

(Yes, I can see someone arguing that Arrows' "play only…" text literally just means, "Play only during the 5.3A action window, but it doesn't matter whether 5.3 happened or not." But I doubt that's what an official ruling would say.)

This is precisely why I asked the question haha

I'm not sure that Elevenses FAQ is quite relevant here, since it only fixes the action window where Elevenses can be played. If the staging step included no actual staging via quest card effect, you could still play Elevenses, I think. The trouble I see is that Arrows doesn't say to play after the engagement check step (which would fix the aciton window), but after *making engagement checks*. If you don't make engagement checks, then I think you lack the pre-requisite.

This means, I think, that not only a quest effect that skips engagement checks could prevent playing the card, but that if player cards prevent all the *individual* enemies from making an engagement check, it can't be played. There has to be at least one enemy that made an actual engagement check.

Suppose you play ally Saruman and select the active location.

1) after questing successfully, do you bypass the location when placing progress?

2) can you travel to a new location, potentially having two active locations next turn?

15 minutes ago, player3351457 said:

Suppose you play ally Saruman and select the active location.

Saruman says, "After Saruman enters play, choose a non-unique enemy or location in the staging area …"—the active location isn't a valid choice.