58 minutes ago, Rytackle said:

In regards to Hyperspace, what are you even arguing about? You're spinning the discussion into something else entirely.

No, I'm having a different discussion with different people. I just happens to be in the same thread.

1 hour ago, Rytackle said:

What would your ideal conversion kit and cost be? With all of your complaining how would you have done it better if you were running FFG?

C'mon, dude, I said this on Page One. I've made my peace with the ConKits.

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, Darth Meanie said:

What I plan to do is keep on trucking with Republic and CiS. I might convert Resistance and FO because I will get better value out of those cheaper ConKits, and they are factions that will see a lot of 2.0 only ships.

Odds are, I will never convert Empire, Rebels, and Scum because those factions will not be cost effective for me to update, and I'm fine playing them as 1.0. At $150 for all 3, those ConKits are a whole 1-2 Waves of Republic I can buy.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

With regards to @Darth Meanie, people have been working seeing this for years...

Well, maybe a year.

But people need to let other people have an opinion without calling it a criticism.

"

This.

The idea of trading was put forth by a number of people as a way to promote/justify/mollify the notion that the community was going to be dealing with inadequacies in the kits, and there might be a way out of it..

Now it's come full circle that it was an expectation."

You can stop reading with that phrase. If anyone is stupid enough to think that a gaming company does not think that gamers trade,buy,sell cards and such has no business even being here. Those are past times that go hand in hand with gaming and are things that a company takes for granted when designing such things with what they put into such things.

If your feathers were actually ruffled, you would not be here, you would have moved othe fact remains that you actually see the points being made and acknowledge they are true and are merely trolling in order to attempt to make discord to get off.

You can always go play 40k because we all know how good GW is at creating such conversion kits and makes attempts to ensure you can use the same models from edition to edition without spending any money.

Or enlighten us...

Exactly what would YOU have put in this mythical entirely free conversion kit that covers all factions, has exactly what each individual player needs with nothing extra/short (regardless or if they have ships or 500) and takes no more space than a manila envelope yet is still profitable enough to it's creator to be passed through corporate.

13 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

You can stop reading with that phrase. If anyone is stupid enough to think that a gaming company does not think that gamers trade,buy,sell cards and such has no business even being here. Those are past times that go hand in hand with gaming and are things that a company takes for granted when designing such things with what they put into such things.

There's a big difference, though, between recognizing that trading will occur and feeling the need to make trading as easy as possible. Trading was not the purpose of the kits. If players want to trade, fine, but FFG is under no obligation to make the kits easily tradable.

FFG may well anticipate that some players want to buy their most hated ship just to destroy it. That doesn't mean that such players have grounds to complain if the models don't burn/melt the way they'd like.

My biggest complaints with the kits came from issues such as the Lamda (two dials, one set of base tokens, no way to run the two generics already owned) and the M3-A( four sets of generic cards, two base tokens for one generic, four tokens for the other) for example. The issue with the Lamda would have been harder to correct, but they seriously couldn’t have put three of each generic for the M3-A instead of useless cards? There were many things in the kits that just didn’t have much if any thought put into them.

And I am reminded of the old Wave 3 Advanced Sensors issue. I will maintain that same stance, patience will win out eventually. And until then, have fun working with the cards you have.

I did appreciate getting more 2.0 tokens in my Resistance kit, though.

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I won't argue that it hinders trading. I do seriously doubt that trading was even a primary concern of theirs, either promoting or hindering it, during development.

I don't see how you can justify this statement. The generic pilots have "insufficient" numbers because there is a limited amount of space to print on without adding more sheets, which would drive up the price. Your K-Wing example is particularly confusing, as that actually seems one of the better thought-out ones to me. There are two dials. There are two named pilots. Each named pilot has a copy of the generic on the back, so you can fly any combination of pilots available for the K-Wing. They didn't limit it to two tiles because they want to undermine trading; they kept it to two because that's the only logical thing to do in that case.

The problem with people complaining about how difficult it is to trade is that it was never intended to be traded! If people want to trade bits around, that's perfectly fine. However, they should realize that they're doing something the system wasn't designed for, and which consequently may not fit the system very well.

Whilst it may be a waste of time, I'll try again with some more examples.

The E-wing bits in the kit are perfectly arranged. There are 2 dials, 2 copies of each generic pilot and 2 copies of each generic ship ship token spread over their 3 tokens. This is ideal for someone with 2 E-wings, and also ideal for people with 1 or 3 E-wings because someone with 1 E can trade their spare dial plus generic cards and token, making everyone happy.

The Tie Interceptor bits have an excessive number of dials, there should only have been 2 dials for the number of pilot cards and base tokens. You can give the 3rd dial away, but you need all the other bits in order to run 2 Interceptors.

The same problem besets the YT1300, 2400, VCX, Attack Shuttle, Sheathipede, and many more: too many dials for the number of other bits. Save money and space by not having that excess. Or, add the missing ship tokens and pilot cards - either method works. Or remove some of the excess dials whilst adding some of the missing ship tokens.

They either did this on purpose, possibly to make people think the kits convert more ships than they do (which has led to a lot of the *******), or to stop people being able to trade (which has also led to a lot of *******), or it's incompetence in being able to count to 2 or 3.

I will also repeat my sentiments that I have not found this a deal-breaker: I have a lot of ships, I have converted almost all of them now and I really like 2nd edition. However, the kits could and should have been better designed whilst staying the same total size or even being smaller.

14 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

5. Looks at every other company that produces games and miniature wargames and the fact that none of the competition even so much as makes an effort to make conversion kits when they go from one edition not caring about their customers whatsoever and we should be dang happy to have gotten what we did get, ...

Just saying, I doubt you looked very hard, if at all.

Warmachine/Hordes, which is on its 3rd edition, converts their previous edition models and gives free card pdfs from their online database so you can print out updated cards regularly as they balance-pass to keep old models in-line with new stuff if you don't want to pay for the app, and rulebooks are available online so players do not have to pay anything to continue with a new edition.

2 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Whilst it may be a waste of time, I'll try again with some more examples.

The E-wing bits in the kit are perfectly arranged. There are 2 dials, 2 copies of each generic pilot and 2 copies of each generic ship ship token spread over their 3 tokens. This is ideal for someone with 2 E-wings, and also ideal for people with 1 or 3 E-wings because someone with 1 E can trade their spare dial plus generic cards and token, making everyone happy.

The Tie Interceptor bits have an excessive number of dials, there should only have been 2 dials for the number of pilot cards and base tokens. You can give the 3rd dial away, but you need all the other bits in order to run 2 Interceptors.

The same problem besets the YT1300, 2400, VCX, Attack Shuttle, Sheathipede, and many more: too many dials for the number of other bits. Save money and space by not having that excess. Or, add the missing ship tokens and pilot cards - either method works. Or remove some of the excess dials whilst adding some of the missing ship tokens.

They either did this on purpose, possibly to make people think the kits convert more ships than they do (which has led to a lot of the *******), or to stop people being able to trade (which has also led to a lot of *******), or it's incompetence in being able to count to 2 or 3.

I will also repeat my sentiments that I have not found this a deal-breaker: I have a lot of ships, I have converted almost all of them now and I really like 2nd edition. However, the kits could and should have been better designed whilst staying the same total size or even being smaller.

This^

stupid how u get 2x Ghost in the rebel conversion and only 2 x-wing dials. would have traded those if given the choice. 2x YT-2400? havent seen two of these used in list ever, again would have liked a full set of x-wing dials, sure u get one in the starter set but i stil feel like the rebel conversion kit isnt at full power wout 3x x-wings.

I split a rebel conversion kit with a friend and we were both happy. i got 2x B wings, 2x Y wings and 2x TY-1300 dials and cards for my rebel collection and he got 3x A wings and a load of stuff i didnt want. seems like a good way to go to both save some $ and not get lumped with lots of stuff u cant use ( i dont own all the rebel ships.. stopped buying them when i went into scum, about when jumpmasters came out). I rarely play rebels but its good to have the option of some rebel squads to practice against

Summary: From my point of view the conversion kits were a little flawed but pretty good value, just find a friend who is happy to split a kit with you.

57 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

The Tie Interceptor bits have an excessive number of dials, there should only have been 2 dials for the number of pilot cards and base tokens. You can give the 3rd dial away, but you need all the other bits in order to run 2 Interceptors.

So those of us with 3x Interceptors (which I imagine is not terribly uncommon, if someone simply bought a TIE Interceptor and Imperial aces) should have to buy two conversion kits, then? You haven't actually solved any problems with your proposed solution; you've just changed which group of people is unhappy with the kits.

1 hour ago, Gilarius said:

They either did this on purpose, possibly to make people think the kits convert more ships than they do (which has led to a lot of the *******), or to stop people being able to trade (which has also led to a lot of *******), or it's incompetence in being able to count to 2 or 3.

You left out a fourth possibility, that some people made a lot of unwarranted assumptions about the kits and then decided to gripe about how the kits didn't meet their thoroughly unreasonable expectations.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

So those of us with 3x Interceptors (which I imagine is not terribly uncommon, if someone simply bought a TIE Interceptor and Imperial aces) should have to buy two conversion kits, then? You haven't actually solved any problems with your proposed solution; you've just changed which group of people is unhappy with the kits.

You left out a fourth possibility, that some people made a lot of unwarranted assumptions about the kits and then decided to gripe about how the kits didn't meet their thoroughly unreasonable expectations.

One last go: if you have 3 Interceptors, the current conversion kit bits do not allow you to fly eg 3 Alpha Interceptors or 3 Sabre Aces because there aren't enough pilot cards. There are enough ship tokens though. If they had only 2 dials, you could fly any combination of pilots for those 2 ships. If you then bought a 2nd kit, you could trade one dial and the correct amount of cards and tokens so another person could run 3 Interceptors as well. (But for this ship, I'd have preferred it if they had simply included a 3rd copy of the generic pilot cards Edit: and a 4th ship token.)

Right now, you need a 2nd kit and then would be able to sell or trade one set of cards and bits - and then have 2 spare dials left over. That is not efficient. It is not a sensible way for FFG to have produced the kits. My proposed solution (the correct number of pilot cards, ship tokens and dials for each ship) works fine, does not alienate anyone who saw the number of dials for each ship and assumed that correlated to the number of ships converted (no, that did not include me, I checked the quantities carefully and knew exactly what I was buying) and reduces the gripes and grumbles. And doesn't make the kits more expensive because it reduces wasted dial space.

I have a lot of ships, not as many as Darth Meanie though, but I'm left with a pile of spare dials whilst still not being able to fly all my ships. If I wanted to fly 8 Z95s, I can't. I have sufficient dials, but not enough pilot cards or ship tokens despite buying 2 conversion kits. I'm not going to get a 3rd kit, because I can borrow the bits I don't have from friends - but I could also borrow dials at the same time if I needed to.

Another example YT2400: one fewer dial; add a 3rd ship token for the YT1300 so you could fly Han and Chewy in the same list - which is something FFG have made possible in the Resistance Kit, but needs a 2nd Rebel kit to do.

Have you also noticed that the Resistance Kit has 3 dials and 3 generic pilot cards to go with those 3 ship tokens? Maybe, just maybe, someone noticed that these should be balanced in numbers rather than be a mess?

58 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

One last go: if you have 3 Interceptors, the current conversion kit bits do not allow you to fly eg 3 Alpha Interceptors or 3 Sabre Aces because there aren't enough pilot cards.

There also aren't enough ship tokens. However, flying either named pilot and two generics, or both named pilots and a generic, are perfectly doable. If they had instead included an extra token to allow you to fly three generics, that would have required more cardboard space. Either they would have had to print an extra board, or they would have had to take space away from another ship, which would have just made someone else unhappy.

58 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

My proposed solution (the correct number of pilot cards, ship tokens and dials for each ship) works fine, does not alienate anyone who saw the number of dials for each ship and assumed that correlated to the number of ships converted (no, that did not include me, I checked the quantities carefully and knew exactly what I was buying) and reduces the gripes and grumbles. And doesn't make the kits more expensive because it reduces wasted dial space.

And this right here is the rub. Who's to say you're the one who decides the "correct" number? I want to fly Soontir and a couple wingmen, while someone else would rather only have two Interceptors so they could have an extra of another ship. It's not about one being right and the other wrong; it's a simple matter of someone isn't getting their way regardless, and a decision needs to be made.

58 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

Another example YT2400: one fewer dial; add a 3rd ship token for the YT1300 so you could fly Han and Chewy in the same list - which is something FFG have made possible in the Resistance Kit, but needs a 2nd Rebel kit to do.

It seems pretty clear to me that FFG wanted to include at least two of every ship. Could it have been done differently? Sure. But then we're back to one person wanting to fly two YT-2400s and another wanting to fly, not only two YT-1300s, but a particular combination of two YT-1300s (one that isn't even that flavorful, as it would have Han and Chewbacca on different ships). Who's to say one is right and the other wrong? And if neither is necessarily right or wrong, why not stick with the "at least two of every ship" reasoning?

58 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

I have a lot of ships, not as many as Darth Meanie though, but I'm left with a pile of spare dials whilst still not being able to fly all my ships. If I wanted to fly 8 Z95s, I can't. I have sufficient dials, but not enough pilot cards or ship tokens despite buying 2 conversion kits. I'm not going to get a 3rd kit, because I can borrow the bits I don't have from friends - but I could also borrow dials at the same time if I needed to.

Not to fly 8 of the same type, no. Though you could fit 6x Bandits and 2x Talas (or vice-versa) onto a list. It seems that where you're getting hung up is that you think "Converts X ships" should mean "Makes it possible to fly X of the same generic".

Come to think of it, you could even fly Blount, 5x Bandits, and 2x Tala for 195 points, or Cracken, 6x Bandits and a Tala for 199. So sure, if you're specifying that you want to fly 8x Bandit Squadron Pilots, you'll need three kits. However, the kits don't promise they'll convert 4x Bandit Squadron Pilots each; they promise 4x Z-95s each, which they certainly do allow.

50 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Either they would have had to print an extra board, or they would have had to take space away from another ship, which would have just made someone else unhappy.

Oh my God this is driving me insane. Please, for the love of Christ, just read what he's writing.

If you have full conversions for every ship, you don't have to change anything about the size or pricing of the Conversion kits. They can stay $50. They can stay the same amount of cards and cardboard. The number of ships converted -- you know, actually converted -- would probably go down, but because every single actually converted ship has value (either through reselling or trade) the real worth of the kits would either not change, or it would go up. (I.e., they'd sell more.)

People who have extra conversions could sell them, or trade them. People who need extra conversions could buy them, or trade for them. Far, far more people end up happy.

You can blather all you like about the mix of ships you think it's okay to be able to fly, but that doesn't change the fact that for a product that claims to "convert" three TIE Interceptors, it's completely reasonable to expect to be able to fly three Alpha Squadron Pilots. Anything else is apologist BS for a product that very deliberately does not do what all of the marketing very deliberately led us to believe it would do.

People who are claiming the CKs are fantastic are, almost universally, doing one of two things: (1) they're ignoring the pounds of unused cardboard they have left over that is almost literally worthless, or (2) they're ignoring the plastic models -- probably quite a few of them -- that FFG claimed we'd be able to "convert." (Or they're doing both.) It's dishonest.

10 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You can blather all you like about the mix of ships you think it's okay to be able to fly, but that doesn't change the fact that for a product that claims to "convert" three TIE Interceptors, it's completely reasonable to expect to be able to fly three Alpha Squadron Pilots. Anything else is apologist BS for a product that very deliberately does not do what all of the marketing very deliberately led us to believe it would do.

They claimed we could convert three TIE Interceptors. I can fly three TIE Interceptors with a single conversion kit.

It's perfectly reasonable to say you can convert three ships when you can indeed fly three ships with the kits. Those who claim otherwise are simply being dishonest.

Is it reasonable to want "convert X" to equal "X generics"? Sure. Is it reasonable to demand that the one implies the other, and insist that any other interpretation is a lie? Absolutely not.

19 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

They claimed we could convert three TIE Interceptors. I can fly three TIE Interceptors with a single conversion kit.

It's perfectly reasonable to say you can convert three ships when you can indeed fly three ships with the kits. Those who claim otherwise are simply being dishonest.

Is it reasonable to want "convert X" to equal "X generics"? Sure. Is it reasonable to demand that the one implies the other, and insist that any other interpretation is a lie? Absolutely not.

There are real estate agents that sell "ocean view" properties with a sliver of blue out the corner of one window.

While technically true, most people feel pretty jerked over seeing the ocean-view property they selected.

13 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are real estate agents that sell "ocean view" properties with a sliver of blue out the corner of one window.

While technically true, most people feel pretty jerked over seeing the ocean-view property they selected.

That's true. However, I don't see that as what's happening here. With the conversion kits, it's more like a real estate agent selling beachfront property as having an ocean view, and then some people calling foul because a bush blocks an eighth of the picture window.

Yes, that may be somewhat irritating, but it's hardly a mere technicality.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

That's true. However, I don't see that as what's happening here. With the conversion kits, it's more like a real estate agent selling beachfront property as having an ocean view, and then some people calling foul because a bush blocks an eighth of the picture window.

Yes, that may be somewhat irritating, but it's hardly a mere technicality.

Well, it does depend on how you interpreted "convert."

Does "covert 3 TIE Interceptors" mean:

A. I get 3 Interceptors back just the way they were in 1.0, but with 2.0 verbiage and graphics.

B. I get to take 3 Interceptor models and make then usable in 2.0, but only in certain limited ways depending upon card and base combinations.

I'm guessing a lot of people expected "A." I would have.

"Conversion" implies a process of totality. If they had called them "Upgrade Kits," eh, who knows.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Well, it does depend on how you interpreted "convert."

Does "covert 3 TIE Interceptors" mean:

A. I get 3 Interceptors back just the way they were in 1.0, but with 2.0 verbiage and graphics.

B. I get 3 Interceptors, usable in 2.0, but only in certain ways depending upon card combinations.

I'm guessing a lot of people expected "A." I would have.

"Conversion" implies a process of totality. If they had called them "Upgrade Kits," eh, who knows.

Well, I actually decided to take a trip down memory lane this evening and view some of the old topics around the time of the announcements and subsequent information. Yes, there were many people who immediately jumped onto the "X means 'X generics'!" bandwagon, but there were also people urging caution and stating (even way back in May) that there could be more than one way of interpreting things, and that we shouldn't make too many assumptions so early.

If someone was just hoping for a conversion of all generics, I can certainly sympathize with their disappointment. But some people are claiming that converting all generics was the only interpretation, and that FFG was being actively deceptive. So, using your examples, my issue isn't that some people were hoping for A, or even really that they might have even expected A. My issue is that when others pointed out that B would also be perfectly consistent with what FFG had announced (prior to the June confirmation that it was B, mind), many (though by no means all) in the A group loudly decried the possibility and even had the audacity to later blame FFG for their own conclusion-jumping.

Well, let me rephrase my main points:

Do I think the conversion kits are good? Yes, definitely.

Do I think they are good value? Yes, absolutely.

Would I recommend them? ****, yes!

Do I think they could have been designed better, so the components match up and so their customers don't have (as much) call to complain? Also, yes.

Take a look through your collections. You will have either a pile of spare dials or a pile of ships that lack enough generic pilot bits. The exact ones will vary, but if FFG had followed their own standard formula of one dial, one pilot card per pilot, and 2 ship tokens per ship, it would have been a) what everyone is used to, since that's what you get in a normal expansion; and b) tradeable.

Thus resulting in fewer complaints. (Some people will still complain, but I don't expect any kit like these to exactly match any single collection, particularly my own. No-one sensible ends up with 13 Z95s!)

And FFG might actually agree, since the FO and Resistance kits appear to be better balanced.