So i keep seeing people claiming that Baffle happens after token removal, refering to abilityque order.

According to ruleref, ability que is applied to resolve ABILITYS (with a link of definition to abilitys). It does not include Phaze timing, wich is resolved on diffrent timing.

1. Start 2. During 3. End

It also says in referense that an ability needs to trigger at 3 to happen after the actual phaze.

So according to the referense Baffle would need the timing ”At the end of” not during. To trigger after token removal.

People are refering to ability que order to Baffle before phaze timing. But phaze isnt an ability so it isnt included in the ability que.

A phaze step can only happen AFTER an ability que is resolved.

That is what the rule reference says.

Is there any official ruling or anything that actually contradicts this?

If you actually explained what you're talking about, it would be easier to understand.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

If you actually explained what you're talking about, it would be easier to understand.

People are claiming Baffle happens AFTER token removal in endphase, is this correct?

I dont know how to be any clearer then that.

Ability are text on cards.

Baffle is a card that has test, so it is an Ability.

Ability Queue rule says that Game Effect happend before Ability.

So removing token (Game Effect) happens before Baffle (Ability).

3 minutes ago, NerroSama said:

Ability are text on cards.

Baffle is a card that has test, so it is an Ability.

Ability Queue rule says that Game Effect happend before Ability.

So removing token (Game Effect) happens before Baffle (Ability).

The reference says game mechanics triggered by the abilityque.

Not to mention that in the explenation of wording also says a ”during” effect to trigger before a ”during” phaze effect.

Im an FO player, so id love some double reinforce tokens and QD shooting at untokened ships.

But this argument is so flawed and contradicts the flow of the game that I cant keep up.

20 minutes ago, NerroSama said:

Ability are text on cards.

Baffle is a card that has test, so it is an Ability.

Ability Queue rule says that Game Effect happend before Ability.

So removing token (Game Effect) happens before Baffle (Ability).

If we skip the ability que thing since we seem to disagree.

How do you bypass the explaining of the wording ”At the end of” vs ”During”?

Ok, so, you want an Electronic Baffle on Quickdraw, in order to gain a Red token, then, during the end phase, suffer that damage, trigger Quickdraw, and get a bonus attack. Correct?

If that's the case, you are then asking whether you would get the bonus of any modified shots and whether your opponent, with Focus/Evade/Reinforce, would then be able to modify their own dice?

While End Phase token clean up is usually done simultaneously in the majority of cases, like the Systems and Activation Phase, I think End Phase should be resolved lowest Initiative to highest. Though, I guess there is a case for keeping Engagement Phase resolution of Highest to Lowest. That might be worth asking FFG for.

Until then, either roll a die for it, or, if an event, ask the TO to give you a ruling.

Is that what you were going for?

Thats exactly right

Since both cleanup and Baffle occur ”During”.

None has made an argument vs the explanation of wording though.

In the referense it says a card need the text ”At the end of” to occur after the normal steps of that round.

The normal step of endphaze is token clearing.

Baffle is during.

So the abilityque discussion isnt relevant until there is an explanation how to bypass the actual wording.

Im gladly proven wrong to get some more muscle in my FO lists

When there is an argument vs the actual wording, ill just stfu untill FAQ.

2 hours ago, Muppetfluffer said:

If we skip the ability que thing since we seem to disagree.

How do you bypass the explaining of the wording ”At the end of” vs ”During”?

I don't understand what should be explainned with "At the end of", both effect are triggered "During".

If they are both Ability, they trigger at the same time and the player chose the order.
If one is a Game Effect (= is a rule), the Game Effect triggers first.

Are you claimming that Baffle is not an Ability (= card effect) ?

In the "At the End": "This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred".

"During" is when "normal effects" take place.

Although this timing is not explained in the RR, "During the End Phase" is clearly a timing window.

As long as two effects "trigger during the same time window", apply Ability Queue.

In the ablity queue rules, after third point, you have a sentence that covers this case: "the game effect is resolved first" than the "player's ability".

The step by step without Quickdraw:

Start the end phase.

Remove circular tokens from all ships (normal effect that occurs during the end phase)

Recover recurring charges (normal effect that occurs during the end phase, but after the "remove tokens step")

At the end.

The step by step with Quickdraw:

Start the end phase.

Remove circular tokens from all ships (normal effect that occurs "During the End Phase")

Trigger Baffles (as seen in Ability Queue): "During the End Phase" is, clearly, a timing window, although is not explained in the RR.

Spend a charge.

Lose a shield.

Attack (only circular tokens that are not removed by an effect can be used)

Recover recurring charges (normal effect that occurs during the end phase, but after the "remove tokens step")

In this step Quickdraw recover the charge spended before.

At the end.

As you can see, you have another "normaleffect" that occurs during the end phase (before the end and after the start).

17 minutes ago, Arachneo said:

In the "At the End": "This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred".

"During" is when "normal effects" take place.

Although this timing is not explained in the RR, "During the End Phase" is clearly a timing window.

As long as two effects "trigger during the same time window", apply Ability Queue.

In the ablity queue rules, after third point, you have a sentence that covers this case: "the game effect is resolved first" than the "player's ability".

The step by step without Quickdraw:

Start the end phase.

Remove circular tokens from all ships (normal effect that occurs during the end phase)

Recover recurring charges (normal effect that occurs during the end phase, but after the "remove tokens step")

At the end.

The step by step with Quickdraw:

Start the end phase.

Remove circular tokens from all ships (normal effect that occurs "During the End Phase")

Trigger Baffles (as seen in Ability Queue): "During the End Phase" is, clearly, a timing window, although is not explained in the RR.

Spend a charge.

Lose a shield.

Attack (only circular tokens that are not removed by an effect can be used)

Recover recurring charges (normal effect that occurs during the end phase, but after the "remove tokens step")

In this step Quickdraw recover the charge spended before.

At the end.

As you can see, you have another "normaleffect" that occurs during the end phase (before the end and after the start).

Thanks for taking time

Is there a reason player order doesn't come into this? During the end phase, all circular tokens are removed. This shares a timing with Baffles, which remove one square token. So, in case of effects with clashing timings, first player resolves all their stuff first. So, first player removes all their tokens, and has the opportunity to trigger their baffles, in either order. Then second player removes all their tokens, and has the opportunity to trigger their baffles, in either order. If the QD player is first player, their opponent will have tokens when they take the damage from baffles. If they're second player, they won't.

Why is it not that way?

Because game effects trigger before player's ability, both players included. So game effects first, than abilities for both players in initiative order.

I don't know what's the problem with this rule understanding.

END PHASE:

--- BEGINNING ( Abbilities that trigger here trigger in player order )

--- DURING

1-. Game effects happen here such as: Removing tokens (Bye evade, focus , jam, tractor ) Recurrent charges recharge. Then, after this is done...

2-. Abbilities trigger here in player order

--- END ( Abbilities thet trigger here in player order)

If you bring a red token here (Stress, Ion) you can use your fresh charge to activate Electronic baffle and this abbility triggers Quickdraw's extra attack.

You cannot use baffle before the cleanup and recharge, so you can't save your focus for this phase, nor have the charge ready for next turn if you activate baffle.

( Hmm, let's save my focus just in case i get attacked, then self inflict damage to attack again with it, and next turn I can attack twice again during engagement if necessary) No, sorry.

14 hours ago, txousman said:

You cannot use baffle before the cleanup and recharge, so you can't save your focus for this phase, nor have the charge ready for next turn if you activate baffle

The text is "During the End phase all circular tokens are removed from all ships. Then , each card with a recurring charge icon recovers one charge"

IMO there are two separate effects, as is recurring step was triggered by circular tokens step.

1 hour ago, Arachneo said:

The text is "During the End phase all circular tokens are removed from all ships. Then , each card with a recurring charge icon recovers one charge"

IMO there are two separate effects, as is recurring step was triggered by circular tokens step.

Why should it matter? They are both game effects and they are quite independant of each other, so it really makes no difference if one is triggered by the other or they happen simultaneously. The only thing that matters is that, as they are both game effects, they happen prior to player's abilities. If Quickdraw decides to use Electronic Baffle to shoot in the End Phase he will have no focus (tokens were removed) and after shooting his charge will be spent for the next phase (charge recovering window has passed).

18 minutes ago, Jagos said:

Why should it matter? They are both game effects and they are quite independant of each other, so it really makes no difference if one is triggered by the other or they happen simultaneously.

Yes, it makes a difference. Because the time window is different. The game effect is resolved first when sharing "the same time window as the player's ability".

So it matters.

I don't think the 'Then' discussion matters because I think it's purely semantics.

It's either:

1. Remove circular tokens then recharge charges.
2. Electronic Baffle trigger window

OR

1. Remove circular tokens
2. Recharge charges
3. Electronic Baffle trigger window

Whether it's all connected to the circular token removal or not, it still happens 'During' and it's still happening in the Game Effects portion of 'During' so even if there is a gap between circular tokens and recharging charges it's a gap where nothing is happening or capable of happening.

As Electronic Baffle is currently worded I think it's irrefutable that this combo works RAW. I expect that's it's not intended to work this way and I'm trying to make people aware of this so that it reaches the eyes/ears of FFG in time for them to clarify Electronic Baffle timing in the wave 2 FAQ.

I'm pretty sure that they didn't intend that I can watch my opponent scoop up all their focus/evade tokens then remove a stress from Tavson to coordinate a Focus onto Quickdraw then remove a stress from Quickdraw to attack the defenseless target, and if I happen to not need the Focus token I can carry it forward to next turn.

I'd like to think that's not what they intended these cards to do.

This happens because the "subtle" interaction between the cards is an unpredictable and endless source of conflicts..

Beacause a game without discussions is not a game 🤣

Really:

I think the End phase is not designed for that.

On 12/14/2018 at 10:28 AM, SOTL said:

it reaches the eyes/ears of FFG in time for them to clarify Electronic Baffle timing in the wave 2 FAQ.

I don't think they'll do, it's crystal clear people just need to read the ref rules, they apply to this case.

They just have to follow the order as stated in the ref rules and that's it

On 12/14/2018 at 10:28 AM, SOTL said:

'During' and it's still happening in the Game Effects portion of 'During' so even if there is a gap between circular tokens and recharging charges it's a gap where nothing is happening or capable of happening

Agree

The only way to activate QD in the way questioned at the beginning of the thread would be a Still Non-Existing (and not very likely to be seen) upgrade:

Forced Focus (talent, 3-4 squad points) : During End Phase, when you were to remove tokens, you may suffer 1 damage to keep your concentration tokens instead . (This would allow QD to receive damage, keep the token and shoot before the recharge, using the eye if needed.. But it would be , imho, OP )