Why Null with Squad Leader and not Swarm?

4 hours ago, KiloFiX9 said:

Why Null with Squad Leader and not Swarm?

Squad Leader gives you the Coordinate action. It's more valuable to have the potential ability to give one of your ships an extra action than engage at a higher initiative, especially because that Coordinate action is going to be done with what will likely be perfect board knowledge. It may mean a boost or barrel roll out of an arc, into arc, defensive or offensive mods, etc.

Just for example, you can use it to roll Quickdraw into the first engagement with both a Focus and a Target Lock, now that the old Advanced Optics is gone.

It's a very powerful tool when it's used correctly and when it has the opportunity to make an impact.

So ran Kylo/Null/Quickdraw last night and while engaging at initiative 7 was extremely helpful for Kylo against a swarm tactics Poe/Pava/Nunb list I felt Null didn’t carry enough weight. Is thier a way around this? Is thier a better TIE /FO option?

Midnight is initiative 6 is that a better option? Has anyone tried running swarm tactics on her or Quickdraw with Kylo as a alternative. I want overall longevity in the list, not just the engagement bonus while Null isn’t damaged.

what are the options?

is there a specific way to better position Null?

45 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

So ran Kylo/Null/Quickdraw last night and while engaging at initiative 7 was extremely helpful for Kylo against a swarm tactics Poe/Pava/Nunb list I felt Null didn’t carry enough weight. Is thier a way around this? Is thier a better TIE /FO option?

Midnight is initiative 6 is that a better option? Has anyone tried running swarm tactics on her or Quickdraw with Kylo as a alternative. I want overall longevity in the list, not just the engagement bonus while Null isn’t damaged.

what are the options?

is there a specific way to better position Null?

Drop SR and PT from Kylo. Go for Hate. Bring better wingman’s.... Sadly you can’t fly Kylo like you flew him in 1.0

1 minute ago, Ryuneke said:

Drop SR and PT from Kylo. Go for Hate. Bring better wingman’s.... Sadly you can’t fly Kylo like you flew him in 1.0

Supernatural Reflexes is so good though being able to move pre-maneuver PTL then clear the stress immediately is very good. I don’t think Kylo wants Hate. I will try it but I feel SNR on Kylo is the way to go.

As for wing mates I’m going to try Midnight for sure. Maybe even Backdraft for some variance. Quickdraw is really good. I believe Kylo is just as good as his 1.0 self.

Oh SR is WAY better than Hate on Kylo. WAY better. Hate is only for a budget, but if you're really on a budget, then he can realistically go naked

2 minutes ago, Greebwahn said:

Oh SR is WAY better than Hate on Kylo. WAY better. Hate is only for a budget, but if you're really on a budget, then he can realistically go naked

I agree. If you can’t take Supernatural Reflexes don’t take Kylo. That’s my philosophy.

1 hour ago, Cgriffith said:

I agree. If you can’t take Supernatural Reflexes don’t take Kylo. That’s my philosophy.

This might be true... But I discovered major problems cause I think Kylo isn't the same as he used to be in 1.0

1) He isn't a point fortress anymore: If he survived with 1h in 1.0 h you saved half of your list.

2) Green dice variants: without the old autothrusters and no evade action you can't take lots of damage because you can't arc dodge everything, especially I6's.

3) 2 force charges can fade away pretty fast cause you need them for SR, ISYTDS and offense/defense.

4) Flying at I5 requires a huge bid to get him working. I6's and especially ships with turrets or repositioning are a problem as well.

5) The wingman question...

Don't get me wrong I really love Kylo and he was my favorite pilot in 1.0 but I think that we should let the past die. So I tried to look at him like this:

1) Silencer is a super platform with an amazing dial.

2) I5

3) Autothrusters

4) Force charges

5) ISYTDS

So I tried this list a couple of times at the Tabletop Simulator:

Kylo Ren (82)
Hate (3)
Advanced Optics (4)

"Midnight" (44)
Fanatical (2)

"Quickdraw" (45)
Fanatical (2)
Special Forces Gunner (10)
Fire-Control System (3)

Total: 195

Of course Kylo isn't that super arc dodger but he's still at I5 with the ability to double reposition. The good thing is he hits very hard. I focused all the time and was able to get 3 hits most of the time with adv. optics + force. I used the force for defense or ISYTDS and started thanks to hate each round with 2 force. With Kylo at 89 pts. I could bring a decent QD and Midnight with Fanatical (who gets ignored which is fine).

The FO philosophy is imo to play really agressive which this list does.

14 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

Oh SR is WAY better than Hate on Kylo. WAY better. Hate is only for a budget, but if you're really on a budget, then he can realistically go naked

The reason I think Supernatural Reflexes is so efficent on Kylo Ren is his built in (admittedly weaker "Autothrusters)

1. Kylo can boost or Barrell Roll pre-activation then trigger "Autothrusters" immediately to add a boost/or barrel roll to give him the needed arc to position himself.

2. Having Supernatural Reflexes allows him to do the above (gain a stress) then on his manuver clear it immediately to grant him his action.

12 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

1) He isn't a point fortress anymore: If he survived with 1h in 1.0 h you saved half of your list.

2) Green dice variants: without the old autothrusters and no evade action you can't take lots of damage because you can't arc dodge everything, especially I6's.

3) 2 force charges can fade away pretty fast cause you need them for SR, ISYTDS and offense/defense.

4) Flying at I5 requires a huge bid to get him working. I6's and especially ships with turrets or repositioning are a problem as well.

5) The wingman question...

2. If you use Supernatural Reflexes (Kylo would still have 1 force left, not ideal but enough for dice mod on both attack and defense with a Focus) a focus also allows for flexibility, and ISYTDS is a deterrant for your opponent.

4. I'm not so sure because while currently a lot of list have I5's everywhere, a 5 point bid should be enough (if) you don't run "Null" in a list. If you do then Kylo is fine in any situation.

5. Null is a great counter to I6 Rebel/Resistance and Empire lists (unless you run up against Han of course) he literally if you can fly him right in certain instances will allow Kylo to engage at I7.

As for "Hate" for 2 points the ability to recover more than 1 force is good, but the downside is at the cost of damage. Which eventually runs out. So while I believe "Hate" has a place (i.e. Darth Vader possibly) I'm just not sure on Kylo if it's efficent. Now I will admit the combination of Hate and ISYTD is very intriguing and probably needs playtesting (which I plan to do) Because the ability to mod on defense using Force then recovering the Force (plus more maybe) then giving your opponent that ISYTDS card is very appealling. Just my thoughts but defintely something to look into.

I actually think the 60 point generic silencer "S.J. Engineer", after adding Optics, is an intriguing option next to Kylo.

Focus tokens get that best efficiency out of 3 greens and 3 reds, and ffg takes this seriously with the costing of Defenders and E-Wings.

Optics on them has to be something meaningful for single-focus action efficiency.

But then they can still reposition a block for a stress and clear it easily, so yeah.

Kinda sounds like a steal of a filler.

Then, just add an FO or two to round out the annoyances.

I like Primed Thrusters on Kylo. I find myself using SR and using Autothrusters at the end of the turn to do whichever move action I didn’t use for SR, which leaves Kylo stressed.

I’ve been toying with a two Ship Kylo + QD list with torpedoes for Kylo and additional upgrades for both with a 10+ point bid. Crazy? I don’t know. Fully pumping up those two ships makes them pretty dangerous.

On 12/12/2018 at 6:53 PM, SOTL said:

QD wants Elusive

After playing a few games with Elusive on Quickdraw, I completely agree. Elusive allows QD to effectively use the built in double tap (with losing 1) shield at a time. Furthermore depending on how you load out Kylo missiles on QD are nice as well.

@dadocollin What components do both ships have in your 2 ship Kylo/Quickdraw list? I’m intrigued.

7 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

@dadocollin What components do both ships have in your 2 ship Kylo/Quickdraw list? I’m intrigued.

So for starters I’ve always been including these:

Kylo: SR, Primed Thrusters, Proton Torps

Quickdraw: SF Gunner, Shield Upgrade, Targeting Synchronizer

I’m trying things on Kylo in addition like Shield Upgrade, Stealth Device, and Homing Missiles. Not 100% sold on any of them yet.

Trying Fanatical, Fire Control System, and some missile on QD, but I’ll probably try Elusive after reading this thread.

Not sure about missile selection on either one or if they really need it. I feel like QD probably needs a missile. I think more than a 10 point bid is probably too much (although maybe not), so you have to pick something to tack on, especially the mod slots. Still, I’m sure Torps and SR will see a point increase, so they’ll take up more space. I’m going to try this out vs. more Poe lists and other I6 lists that have it well outnumbered to see if it’s just too few ships.

19 hours ago, dadocollin said:

I like Primed Thrusters on Kylo. I find myself using SR and using Autothrusters at the end of the turn to do whichever move action I didn’t use for SR, which leaves Kylo stressed.

I’ve been toying with a two Ship Kylo + QD list with torpedoes for Kylo and additional upgrades for both with a 10+ point bid. Crazy? I don’t know. Fully pumping up those two ships makes them pretty dangerous.

Why not use AT after the SR move, then clear it with a green, still getting a TL/Focus, not even needing PT?

3 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

Why not use AT after the SR move, then clear it with a green, still getting a TL/Focus, not even needing PT?

This is the good stuff.

4 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

Why not use AT after the SR move, then clear it with a green, still getting a TL/Focus, not even needing PT?

Oh I like that.

I know that all this SR shenanigans are super powerful especially combined with PT. But had anyone of you recent success with this Kylo and what did you bring with him?

I had a mirror match against a SR/PT Kylo with two generic SF's. I played the list I posted above (with Hate on Kylo). I played really aggressive and went after Kylo. With Midnight and QD moving after him it was really hard for him to dodge arcs. He blanked once against QD and I had him at half points. I lost Midnight and half QD but his Kylo also died. QD and Kylo were able to arc dodge and PS kill both of his SF's.

What I found interesting is the fact that his Kylo either had an unmodified shot (cause he needed the focus for defense) or had to disengage and had no shots...

Hate Kylo can still dodge arcs like an interceptor, punches really hard with AO and can easily assign the ISYTDS condition cause force charges aren't a problem...

16 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

...Hate Kylo can still dodge arcs like an interceptor, punches really hard with AO and can easily assign the ISYTDS condition cause force charges aren't a problem...

This seems like something that needs to be tested. The ability to regen extra Force charges is really good. I just don’t know how I like that taking damage aspect. It seems a very situational build but one that needs to be considered.

It seems like Hate is there to try and help you when you are taking an alpha strike from the enemy. If your opponent gets two or three ships who manage to get Kylo into arc, then you can try to get your Force topped of after each attack. It is by no means ideal, but three points seems all right for a card that is designed for helping bail out of a worst-case scenario.

Did some tournament searching (since Wave 2 Release - 14 tournaments)

The Tie Silencer has only shown up 11 times(Kylo Ren 7)

Force Upgrades ( Supernatural Reflexes 4, Hate 2 and Sense 1)

Kylo has had Primed Thrusters attached only 4 times, while he has only seen Advanced Optics 1 time. And the only time a Torpedo was equipped it was Advanced Proton Torpedoes. I find this limited information very interesting as the Kylo Ren builds are very light which might be because of his cost.

His most common wing mate is Quickdraw being played all 7 times with Kylo. Elusive and Juke have shown up each one time. While Special Forces Gunner is auto-include. Fanatical and yes Swarm Tactics have been used, even Afterburners on Quickdraw.

as for the TIE/FO

Null 5 times all with Swarm Tactics.... once with Biohex Codes

Midnight 2 times both times w/Fanatical and Advanced Optics

Commander Malarus 2 times was used and equipped with Trickshot once.

Kylo has not won yet and has only seen the top 3 once. It’s still very early but these are those early squads being played with Kylo in a List. The most popular tested list is Kylo/QuickDraw/Null.

That makes sense. Quickdraw is the best ship in the faction and Null is the best /FO pilot.

I'm not personally convinced at all that Kylo is worth his cost. If the game moves towards a 2-3 ship list format that Kylo gets better as he can dodge more of the incoming fire, but I think there's going to be a lot I6 or I5+bid guys around that will just hunt him down mercilessly.

That's why my First Order list starts with QD/Null/Midnight so I've got 7/6/6 as starting initiative.

6 hours ago, SOTL said:

That makes sense. Quickdraw is the best ship in the faction and Null is the best /FO pilot.

I'm not personally convinced at all that Kylo is worth his cost. If the game moves towards a 2-3 ship list format that Kylo gets better as he can dodge more of the incoming fire, but I think there's going to be a lot I6 or I5+bid guys around that will just hunt him down mercilessly.

That's why my First Order list starts with QD/Null/Midnight so I've got 7/6/6 as starting initiative.

Blackout was the alternative to Kylo Ren, he was the Tie Silencer other than Kylo used 4 times (upgrade Trickshot) of the 4 times Proton Torpedoes were equipped once and Afterburners once.

i find it interested so far (all information via ListFortress) that it’s a very small grouping flown with Kylo/or even the Tie Silencer in general. I know there’s only 4 ships but no one is using Backdraft, or any other TIE/FO is there a major power drop between Null, Midnight and Cdr. Malarus and everyone else. Scorch and Static have very nice abilities.

What I’ve seen and experienced so far is basically the same what you said. I played a tournament yesterday and it was depressing to see what happened to Kylo game after game...

No firepower and if you blank out only once your opponent already got 1/4 of your list... QD was the ship in my list that actually did something.

Btw I played him together with QD and Squad Leader Null. Went 2-2 which is not that bad. But I have to say that I only played against 2-3 ship lists that looked pretty experimental...

5 minutes ago, Ryuneke said:

What I’ve seen and experienced so far is basically the same what you said. I played a tournament yesterday and it was depressing to see what happened to Kylo game after game...

No firepower and if you blank out only once your opponent already got 1/4 of your list... QD was the ship in my list that actually did something.

Btw I played him together with QD and Squad Leader Null. Went 2-2 which is not that bad. But I have to say that I only played against 2-3 ship lists that looked pretty experimental...

I've played 6 games thus far with Kylo Ren as the staple. I am 5-1 it may be my playstyle, my play group or just lucky dice mods but so far it working for me. Each time my list has been composed of the same pilots (Kylo/Quickdraw/Null) currently on ListFortress their is some variance with the TIE/FO pilots but my list is also the most used.

I in my games have learned I have won my 5 games on turn 1 and 2; and lost my one game on turn 1 and two.

With this list I believe the choices you make in those turns determines your fate. How you decide to use all 3, forcing your opponent into decisions. I will add if you try to fly them in formation you'll be eaten alive. (that's how I lost my first game with the three).

been using hate + adv optics on kylo for that sweet force action as for his wingmen been using two of the following and has been really solid: