TIE/vn Silencer - •Kylo Ren - 103
•Kylo Ren - Tormented Apprentice (82)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

TIE/sf Fighter - •“Quickdraw” - 63
•“Quickdraw” - Defiant Duelist (45)
Fire-Control System (3)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

TIE/fo Fighter - •“Null” - 34
•“Null” - Epsilon Ace (31)
Swarm Tactics (3)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Ran this tonight versus L’ulo, Tallie, Ello and Jesika Pava. I lost 1 shield off Null. L’ulo went pop on Turn 3 to Kylo and his Proton Torpedoes. By Turn 5 Tallie saw her fate pop at the hands of QuickDraw and Kylo. After that it was chase, strike and kill.

I really like this build.

On 12/28/2018 at 5:25 AM, Cgriffith said:

TIE/vn Silencer - •Kylo Ren - 103
•Kylo Ren - Tormented Apprentice (82)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

TIE/sf Fighter - •“Quickdraw” - 63
•“Quickdraw” - Defiant Duelist (45)
Fire-Control System (3)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

TIE/fo Fighter - •“Null” - 34
•“Null” - Epsilon Ace (31)
Swarm Tactics (3)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Ran this tonight versus L’ulo, Tallie, Ello and Jesika Pava. I lost 1 shield off Null. L’ulo went pop on Turn 3 to Kylo and his Proton Torpedoes. By Turn 5 Tallie saw her fate pop at the hands of QuickDraw and Kylo. After that it was chase, strike and kill.

I really like this build.

I never really understand why you take swarm tactics. Can you please explain?

52 minutes ago, Ryuneke said:

I never really understand why you take swarm tactics. Can you please explain?

Because until Null has a damage card it allows either Quickdraw or Kylo Ren to engage at initiative 7. Bypassing all the I6 shenanigans that a Wedge, Poe, Soontir, Vader, etc. can play also if you want to have the bid it allows your I5 and I6 perfect information.

14 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Because until Null has a damage card it allows either Quickdraw or Kylo Ren to engage at initiative 7. Bypassing all the I6 shenanigans that a Wedge, Poe, Soontir, Vader, etc. can play also if you want to have the bid it allows your I5 and I6 perfect information.

What if those i6 ships weren't in the arc of the ships that still move at i5 or because you were probably given initiative, also weren't in QDs arc either? Does shooting at i7 still matter then? Sure would be nice to reposition one of your ships with an action at i7...

EDITED: Also, Midnight and Kylo don't go in a list together. Both are endgame pieces that don't want to be shot at and Midnight would definitely like to have something that can coordinate to him so it can have a green token and still lock. Kylo at the same time would benefit from coordinate, but doesn't need it. Although if you take something that can coordinate for Midnight, you're losing out on any source of aggro firepower to help actually destroy ships so Kylo can make it to the endgame.

49 minutes ago, RStan said:

What if those i6 ships weren't in the arc of the ships that still move at i5 or because you were probably given initiative, also weren't in QDs arc either? Does shooting at i7 still matter then? Sure would be nice to reposition one of your ships with an action at i7...

EDITED: Also, Midnight and Kylo don't go in a list together. Both are endgame pieces that don't want to be shot at and Midnight would definitely like to have something that can coordinate to him so it can have a green token and still lock. Kylo at the same time would benefit from coordinate, but doesn't need it. Although if you take something that can coordinate for Midnight, you're losing out on any source of aggro firepower to help actually destroy ships so Kylo can make it to the endgame.

I’m confused my list or any this I’ve ran has been a variation of the Null/Kylo or Null/Kylo/QD. Why is Midnight even an option? (In any scenario) as for squad leader or swarm tactics I like the option if needed the ability to engage before my opponents.

I don’t run Midnight with Kylo.

What if my normal list is 187-190. And I always get to pick when my I5/I6 moves.

3 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

I’m confused my list or any this I’ve ran has been a variation of the Null/Kylo or Null/Kylo/QD. Why is Midnight even an option? (In any scenario) as for squad leader or swarm tactics I like the option if needed the ability to engage before my opponents.

I don’t run Midnight with Kylo.

What if my normal list is 187-190. And I always get to pick when my I5/I6 moves.

The edited part about Midnight was generally in response towards others that have put Midnight in squads with Kylo, not you.

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

The edited part about Midnight was generally in response towards others that have put Midnight in squads with Kylo, not you.

Trust me you are smarter than me(or at least play major tournaments against superior competition) if thier is a better, more efficient build. For Kylo I’m all ears. I usually don’t put Cluster Missiles on QD which puts the list at 195. Proton Torpedoes isn’t necessary on Kylo but I like them and could swap them/and have for the bigger bid. I haven’t yet not had the choice in a game I’ve played with the 3.

If I thought any of the Force upgrades were beneficial to Kylo more than SNR, I’d swap them and try other stuff out. Problem is I think SNR is his best option.

To be completely honest, I'm not a Kylo player nor will I attempt to be. On top of that we still haven't seen it "out in the wild" at highly competitive events just yet, but they're around the corner. Although what does seem the most threatening is Kylo in a list where he can split up from the rest of it and whatever else is in the list is threatening enough for it to be a hard decision what to commit to. This ends up creating either a pincer or a strong flank from most of the time Kylo or the rest of the list. Normally the correct decision, as the opponent, is to go after the non-Kylo stuff because he can de-commit to his attack vector very easily. That's why Lt Tavson being able to reinforce every turn which takes a LONG time to kill and use Snoke to help Kylo know where not to go is one of the better options. Two SFs generics with either SF gunners or missiles. Individually, they got a bit better than T-65 health (shield>hull) and because they're 2 ships, they together can't be focus fired. Both Lt Tavson and 2 SFs generate enough aggro offensively and have enough health in total to not die very quickly. So while Swarm Tactics is a good jousting strategy against those i6 ships, it's not (IMO) a good Kylo strategy because I think Kylo thrives in an environment where he can flank or occupy an attack vector alone when another is threatened by his squad mates.

49 minutes ago, RStan said:

Although what does seem the most threatening is Kylo in a list where he can split up from the rest of it and whatever else is in the list is threatening enough for it to be a hard decision what to commit to.

Could this be accomplished as you mention with Kylo being the flanker, while QD and Null stay responsibly together to allow QD the ability to engage at I7, and Kylo the ability to pick and chose when he/ and how he engages the opponent?

50 minutes ago, RStan said:

That's why Lt Tavson being able to reinforce every turn which takes a LONG time to kill and use Snoke to help Kylo know where not to go is one of the better options.

Is that because of the damage migation with reinforce and his already built in 6/6 (shield/hull) ~ I will admit this seems intriguing but I would want to fit a 3rd ship in there, even a low TIE/FO to at least assist Tavson. A two ship list (so would this be a good comparison to Poe/Han w/Rey Gunner or at least similar?)

50 minutes ago, RStan said:

Two SFs generics with either SF gunners or missiles. Individually, they got a bit better than T-65 health (shield>hull) and because they're 2 ships, they together can't be focus fired. Both Lt Tavson and 2 SFs generate enough aggro offensively and have enough health in total to not die very quickly.

I completely agree. I haven't really consider two SF generics; I'm going to look at both options.

I think you need as much firepower as you can get. So Null is imo not the right ship for this list.

Scorch (tie fo) might be a good Wingman when you want to use SR+PT Kylo because he's pretty cheap for an I4 who can shoot 3 red dice. With Fanatical you can boost his offense a bit for 2 more points.

Then add Quickdraw cause she's still a huge threat and everybody wants to see her dead asap.

So I brought this list to a 12 player tournament yesterday:

Kylo Ren (82)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)
Primed Thrusters (8)

"Quickdraw" (45)
Fanatical (2)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

"Scorch" (35)

Total: 194

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I won 2 games and lost 1.

Cons:

1) My MOV was always bad because I lost QD in every match, Scorch in 2 matches. Kylo survived every match but was at half points twice....
2) Ships with turrets are a pain. The last game I played against Rey/Poe with a huge bid. With the Falcons big base and the turret it was so hard for Kylo to dodge her arcs and have a shot at the same time. Poe, even at I6, was easier to dodge because he ended up stressed most of the time which limited his maneuverability quite a bit.
3) Initiative is super important (as everyone knows). The first game I had I played against Whisper, Echo and Deathrain. Kylo moved after the opponent ships and was able to compete with the phantoms even with all the cloak/decloak shenanigans.

Pros:

1) There are certain lists that just can't deal with Kylo at all. So if you fly him carefully and get him into the end game it's really hard not to win.
2) Quickdraw is still good, even with only 2 green dice. I really enjoyed fanatical on her which triggered quite often. She's was the primary target in every game but survived a couple of rounds thanks to her I6...
3) Scorch was awesome because nobody wanted to shoot him. The 3 reds with a focus can do some meaningful damage.

Conclusion:

I enjoyed flying the list and was really happy with my result. Winning against Phantoms and Rey/Poe was really satisfying. But the thing is that there is too much stuff out there that cause this list problems. So if you bring a super bid your wingmans suck and Kylo can't win a game all by himself. If you don't bring a huge bid and better wingmans (which I think is the way to go) Kylo can have a hard time to make all his tricks count.

Btw: The game I've lost I played against Boba/Palob/4Lom. Even though Kylo moved after Boba I wasn't able to do much. They just ripped my ships apart.

I built this one:

Kylo Ren (82)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)

"Quickdraw" (45)
Elusive (3)
Special Forces Gunner (10)
Fire-Control System (3)
Shield Upgrade (6)

"Null" (31)
Swarm Tactics (3)

Total: 195

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

But I'm unsure about Null. He seems awfully quick to fall from "34 points of Initiative 7 bonanza" to "34 points of worthless ****".

Played Kylo today. Eco version with only Torpedoes. He's excellent - screw the bid, screw Supernatural, screw Condition: he's all about maneuverability and action economy (counting Force as semi-Calculate we can assume he's 4 actions/turn).

Rest of the squad Backdraft + Cluster Missiles, FCS, Fanatical (no gunner) and 2x PS1 TIEfo.

Kylo was perfect, while Backdraft seemed overloaded (no use for FCS, Fanatical didn't worked as didn't loose a single shield and no use for Clusters as I flyed all the time away from enemy using 3rd dice from pilot's ability).

Thin Backdraft looks excellent.

Need more testing.

Edit: outcome was crushing victory against Boba/Teroch/Ini1 Fang.

6 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

I enjoyed flying the list and was really happy with my result. Winning against Phantoms and Rey/Poe was really satisfying. But the thing is that there is too much stuff out there that cause this list problems. So if you bring a super bid your wingmans suck and Kylo can't win a game all by himself. If you don't bring a huge bid and better wingmans (which I think is the way to go) Kylo can have a hard time to make all his tricks count.

I think this will be the thing. List Discovery. Who is Kylo best with, which upgrades suit the style of the list you bring and the components included. It think a offsetting distraction could/or may be the best option but it’s so early who knows. The Upsilon with HLC can almost throw 5 dice all the time. I’ll probably run it a few times and check out the probability mechanics as well.

16 minutes ago, Stefan said:

But I'm unsure about Null. He seems awfully quick to fall from "34 points of Initiative 7 bonanza" to "34 points of worthless ****".

I’m not sure either although full disclosure I’ve been mostly running Kylo/QD/ and Null and it’s worked for me 7-2. But Null seems squishy, formation dependent (so to speak) and lacking real firepower.

3 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Played Kylo today. Eco version with only Torpedoes. He's excellent - screw the bid, screw Supernatural, screw Condition: he's all about maneuverability and action economy (counting Force as semi-Calculate we can assume he's 4 actions/turn).

 Rest of the squad Backdraft + Cluster Missiles, FCS, Fanatical (no gunner) and 2x PS1 TIEfo. 

I wonder if turning him into a brawler (Hate instead of SNR) will be a thing ( he basically would be a FO Luke w/ the ability to still deter attacks w/ISYTDS) would that allow for stronger wing mates. He still has authothrusters so his maneuverability is hurt premovement and you wouldn’t be able to clear stress immediately but is it necessary? Thoughts.

25 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

I think this will be the thing. List Discovery. Who is Kylo best with, which upgrades suit the style of the list you bring and the components included. It think a offsetting distraction could/or may be the best option but it’s so early who knows. The Upsilon with HLC can almost throw 5 dice all the time. I’ll probably run it a few times and check out the probability mechanics as well.

I’m not sure either although full disclosure I’ve been mostly running Kylo/QD/ and Null and it’s worked for me 7-2. But Null seems squishy, formation dependent (so to speak) and lacking real firepower.

I wonder if turning him into a brawler (Hate instead of SNR) will be a thing ( he basically would be a FO Luke w/ the ability to still deter attacks w/ISYTDS) would that allow for stronger wing mates. He still has authothrusters so his maneuverability is hurt premovement and you wouldn’t be able to clear stress immediately but is it necessary? Thoughts.

Yeah, I want to boost and roll like crazy with Kylo, flying this way and that - and Null wants to stay Range 1 with a very limited dial. At least he flies after Kylo...

17 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

I wonder if turning him into a brawler (Hate instead of SNR) will be a thing ( he basically would be a FO Luke w/ the ability to still deter attacks w/ISYTDS) would that allow for stronger wing mates. He still has authothrusters so his maneuverability is hurt premovement and you wouldn’t be able to clear stress immediately but is it necessary? Thoughts.

Using SNR boosts your maneuverability, but hinders your action economy (1 force left) and makes your wingmates significantly weaker.

I am in the "cheaper Kylo - stronger wingmates" basket.

Hate can be an option: after using force for defense/offense you can recover force (if hit) to use ISDTS on attacker, but I think 3 pts can be used somewhere else (Homing Missiles/FCS etc on wingmates)

11 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

I am in the "cheaper Kylo - stronger wingmates" basket.

Hate can be an option: after using force for defense/offense you can recover force (if hit) to use ISDTS on attacker, but I think 3 pts can be used somewhere else (Homing Missiles/FCS etc on wingmates)

If Hate/or SNR isn’t an option what does the build look like (Instinctive Aim??) and with all those extra points why Homing Missiles. Until I’m down especially with shields I’d just take the auto 1 damage than let a 4 dice attack with a lock/FCS hit me.

39 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

If Hate/or SNR isn’t an option what does the build look like (Instinctive Aim??) and with all those extra points why Homing Missiles. Until I’m down especially with shields I’d just take the auto 1 damage than let a 4 dice attack with a lock/FCS hit me.

I find Homing Missiles perfect upgrade for Ini2/3 TIEsf, not for Kylo ofc.

Imagine 5 TIEsf with Homing Missiles shooting back: "hello Fenn Rau, wanna 5 dmg or 20 red dice?" - this is most scary First Order list I can think of. 30 Hull behind 2 greens, 2 arcs and 5 rockets.

And with 5 straight/ 3 hard it's easy to leave enemy behind.

Homing Missiles are not super efficient on 1 ship but on 5 ships it's scary.

You can fit 3 TIEsf with Homing and Eco Kylo (I would go for Kylo with Proton, 2x TIEsf with Homing and Scorch tho)

It’s not using Kylo so apologies for going off topic but building on Oldparas suggestions, what about Quickdraw, Backdraft and a PS2 generic SF with homing missiles combined with Midnight with targeting synchroniser?

I like the idea of rolling in, focusing and using that Midnight lock to fire the missiles. Then sweep past and fire backwards.

27 minutes ago, Smudger13 said:

It’s not using Kylo so apologies for going off topic but building on Oldparas suggestions, what about Quickdraw, Backdraft and a PS2 generic SF with homing missiles combined with Midnight with targeting synchroniser?

I like the idea of rolling in, focusing and using that Midnight lock to fire the missiles. Then sweep past and fire backwards.

Midnight is not worth it in my opinion. Too many points for what it does.

23 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Midnight is not worth it in my opinion. Too many points for what it does.

Fair enough. My thoughts were more that he carries targeting synchroniser very comfortably as his action will normally be to lock.

I suppose Null can do a similar high PS synchroniser role.

10 hours ago, Smudger13 said:

It’s not using Kylo so apologies for going off topic but building on Oldparas suggestions, what about Quickdraw, Backdraft and a PS2 generic SF with homing missiles combined with Midnight with targeting synchroniser?

I like the idea of rolling in, focusing and using that Midnight lock to fire the missiles. Then sweep past and fire backwards.

See my Tie SF Swarm thread. Its scary. Just played against Quickdraw plus 3 omegas with homing and my awing LuLo just had no chance in this game. And Poe on 1 hull was DOA.

Firing missiles out the front or butt with 4 or 5 ships is something many people are missing when looking at the Tie SF and First Order in general. 10arcs all with missiles. Suppernatty or not, you taking damage.

What about making quickdraw an "ace"? I played it against a 4 x wing list. I passed all the time to escape, i lose quickdraw in the middle game but i won. The only problem was the quickdraw's damage output (too low for the points in my opinion)

Kylo Ren (82)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)
Primed Thrusters (8)
Stealth Device (8)

"Quickdraw" (45)
Elusive (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Afterburners (8)

Total: 189

There you have it ^^ Only two small ships, both of which really don't want to get shot at?

3 hours ago, Manolox said:

What about making quickdraw an "ace"? I played it against a 4 x wing list. I passed all the time to escape, i lose quickdraw in the middle game but i won. The only problem was the quickdraw's damage output (too low for the points in my opinion)

Kylo Ren (82)
Supernatural Reflexes (12)
Primed Thrusters (8)
Stealth Device (8)

"Quickdraw" (45)
Elusive (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Special Forces Gunner (10)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Afterburners (8)

Total: 189

55 minutes ago, Stefan said:

There you have it ^^ Only two small ships, both of which really don't want to get shot at?

I think this is not the right way to build a squad around Kylo. If you want a super QD you really need Null as a supporter. He can coordinate QD to let her really shine.

In my opinion QD doesn’t need much upgrades, Gunner of course + X. I like Fanatical. The thing is that QD is the primary target most of the time and has huge potential to lose all shields in one round. If you save the points on her you can get a decent 3rd ship...

Can you explain this example @Ryuneke

At first glance it incorporates the following:

The ability for Kylo Ren to not be attached to any wingmate, ship or within a certain range to fly effectively. It still allows Kyo to be a deterrant of attacks with ISYTDS if the Kylo player decides to use it. It's still SNR Kylo with Primed Thrusters.

The Tavson pick would also be my choice was well. Although I may consider a more offensively minded build I'd def. go with SL Snoke/and Phasma as the crew with HLC for the chance occassionaly to shoot 5 dice at all times. But what is the PA and BioHex in thier for what are you trying to accomplish? As for a two-ship list in this regard reinforce, 6 hull/6 shield is going to take awhile to get through and while that occurs hopefully Kylo can do some work.

I've been looking at this exact two ship build myself just with a more a more durable Kylo (SU, Proton Torps/SNR) and Tavson (FCS,HLC, Phasma/Snoke) 198 points.