7 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

that makes a lot of sense. 2 points can be a pretty big swing when looking at a squad as a whole. +2 points each to Redline, vader crew, Whisper would just make the bid smaller for "cloak and choke", so people would start ripping juke off soontir. They may even go Deathrain instead of Redline. both are fine, but it would still be a nasty extended list.

I mean, if I was changing a lot of prices, possibly every single card (depending on Soontir's talent) in that list would see a 1 or 2 point increase. A 1-point increase on everything, and you'd still have the list, just at a 195 total, so a small-ish bid. A 2-point increase on everything, presuming a Juke Soontir, makes the list literally unplayable at 203 points, without hitting any individual card with a massive nerfhammer.

Soontir might not really need a price increase (dude can easily pop), but maybe nearly all Init 5 and 6 ships should be up 1 or 2 points. Or rather, I can conceive of a rational design and pricing scheme where nearly all Init 5 and 6 ships are 1 or 2 points more than they currently are. It's not the only good scheme, or necessarily a 100% perfect design scheme, but it'd be a totally sane direction to go.

29 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

for hyperspace:

Quad jumper up +3 points

Scum Han Gunner + 5 points

Boba + 2 points

Quads aren't Hyperspace legal...

11 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

Since I would be repeating a lot, I would do a 1 point drop on the generic Tie Advances and 2-3 point drop on the named ones that are not Vader.

I had a chance to fly some named TIE Advanced last night. I went Vader (SNR, FCS, Afterbuners), Maarek Stele (Crackshot, FCS), Ved Folso (Crackshot, FCS). I left Maarek as bait on one side (Luke and Dutch bit against the bait), and flew with Ved and Vader against my opponent's Outmaneuver Wedge. Lost Maarek while he did next to nothing, but I saw that if I could trade him for Wedge, I'd be in the clear against Luke/Dutch.

Anyhow, while the x1s didn't seem "bad" they really just felt like a lot more work to get their point's worth. I mean, I think I'd have done far better with just two Juke Sigma Phantoms, and that'd have added to the bid. The ship feels like it could be a decent-enough flanker if it had the Boost action, but clearly it can't have the Boost action because of SNR Vader.

It'd be silly for fluff reasons, and shouldn't be added to the game, but SLAM on an x1 is an interesting thought experiment...

//

A list I would totally try if Tempests were 40 points: 4x Tempest + Howlrunner. She can deliver them into Lock range while they're just Focusing, so they won't be totally absent of punch on the approach.

10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Quads aren't Hyperspace legal...

ok, torps +++++ (11 points, EZ)

So question on torps....would you rather them go up in price...or reduce the charge to 1 instead of 2?

Up in price, definitely. All you're doing otherwise is encouraging one-shot alpha strike style gameplay.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I had a chance to fly some named TIE Advanced last night. I went Vader (SNR, FCS, Afterbuners), Maarek Stele (Crackshot, FCS), Ved Folso (Crackshot, FCS). I left Maarek as bait on one side (Luke and Dutch bit against the bait), and flew with Ved and Vader against my opponent's Outmaneuver Wedge. Lost Maarek while he did next to nothing, but I saw that if I could trade him for Wedge, I'd be in the clear against Luke/Dutch.

Anyhow, while the x1s didn't seem "bad" they really just felt like a lot more work to get their point's worth. I mean, I think I'd have done far better with just two Juke Sigma Phantoms, and that'd have added to the bid. The ship feels like it could be a decent-enough flanker if it had the Boost action, but clearly it can't have the Boost action because of SNR Vader.

It'd be silly for fluff reasons, and shouldn't be added to the game, but SLAM on an x1 is an interesting thought experiment...

//

A list I would totally try if Tempests were 40 points: 4x Tempest + Howlrunner. She can deliver them into Lock range while they're just Focusing, so they won't be totally absent of punch on the approach.

The Tie Advanced is kind of in a weird place (excluding Vader). It can't really out joust anything at its price point and it isn't really a good arc-dodger. Its suppose to be kind of a mainstay Imperial Fighter but its not really good at that roll. The built in ATC is nice, but getting TLs is a pain at low initiative. I just don't know what to do with them.

14 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

The Tie Advanced is kind of in a weird place (excluding Vader). It can't really out joust anything at its price point and it isn't really a good arc-dodger. Its suppose to be kind of a mainstay Imperial Fighter but its not really good at that roll. The built in ATC is nice, but getting TLs is a pain at low initiative. I just don't know what to do with them.

I'd love for there be some kind of 1 use Long Range Scanner mod that was "non-unique pilot only" that you could add on. Just something that gives your low init ships some sort of chance of getting their TL's lit at least once for a good engagement. It could breath some life into generics and give them a fighting chance. Think of it as a use once Jendon ability that you paid for per ship.

ugh, if torps do go up in cost, it's gonna be a bad day for Rebels. They're already a little on the boring side even when they work, but a steep increase in torps + some really meh turrets would leave Y's pretty much dead and hurt X's. Suboptimal considering how few good picks they have in Hyperspace to begin with.

Also, they're Proton Torpedoes. They're not "super obscure weapon from issue 526 of a comic you never read", I'm okay with them being top tier.

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

The Tie Advanced is kind of in a weird place (excluding Vader). It can't really out joust anything at its price point and it isn't really a good arc-dodger. Its suppose to be kind of a mainstay Imperial Fighter but its not really good at that roll. The built in ATC is nice, but getting TLs is a pain at low initiative. I just don't know what to do with them.

They just need to be cheaper. At 41 points, it's really hard to combine them with something like Howlrunner, use them in something of a swarm. I played once against a Howl (with Shield) + 3x Storm (Crack Shot+Cluster), and it seemed far better than I'd have expected.

There are some things in this game which are expensive because they're easy. Luke-Gunner, or TIE Defenders (and I think there's a better case that Defenders are too cheap than too expensive), for example. The flipside of this is there ought to be things which are cheaper, but hard. TIE Advanced x1 ought to be the example of this. Something underpriced, but with lots of negative synergies (3 green dice would love to Focus most of the time...). At the right price, they'd be an amazing Skill-Cap ship.

What if they *were* 37 points, for 5x Tempest + FCS? I kinda don't think that'd be a problem (Five. Cartel. Marauders. are decent enough, but not a problem--I kind of think 5 Rookiee Pilots with FAA at the end of 1e was a problem, but I'm a crank about some things). It'd also be a really unique design. A great many ships in this game are built around the power of the first engagement. Proton Torpedo Alpha Strikes, for example. But 5 FCS Tempests is a list which is going to be really weak on the opening, but maybe can come back over time. That'd be a nifty design space.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

What if they *were* 37 points, for 5x Tempest + FCS? I kinda don't thi  nk that'd be a problem (Five. Cartel. Marauders. are decent enough, but not a problem--I kind of think 5 Rookiee Pilots with FAA at the end of 1e was a problem, but I'm a crank about some things). It'd also be a really unique design. A great many ships in this game are built around the power of the first engagement. Proton Torpedo Alpha Strikes, for example. But 5 FCS Tempests is a list which is going to be really weak on the opening, but maybe can come back over time. That'd be a nifty design space. 

It's an interesting head sim, for sure. But I just feel like they suffer so much in action economy vs others and are at serious disadvantage of getting TL's to spin up their firepower. If you don't have a chance to grab a TL then you are probably banking a focus and likely using it on defense. Then those two dice primaries sort of fizzle without any other way to mod them. I don't think it's a price thing but rather economy and initiative based disadvantages to chassis benefit.

If limiting mine to cards that affect all factions in the interest of better game state balance...

1) Proton Torpedoes to 13; right now they're too much of auto include for most ordnance lists over all other torps and missiles

2) Trajectory Simulator to 8 points. Priced to force those bombing lists truly commit to a strategy that requires no skill and is overall a ridiculously ludicrous concept

3) Trick Shot to variable model, 2/3/4 on any forward arc only ships small / med/ large, 4/5/6 for any ship with a secondary arc. Trick shot is the no skill auto include that has a corrosive effect when combined with certain pilots and larger arcs from bigger bases. Should never have been anything but primary attack only. Easier than crack shot so should be a bit more expensive.

Pilots

Jakku up to 32, All Phantoms up by 3, and all large base ships down by 3 each.

Specific Upgrades

Sloane up by 6. Does too much for so little and requires no real talent to pull off.

Heroic up to 3. Yup, I said it. We're all going to get sick of that card, mark my words.

Han Gunner up to 10. What in the Hoth were they thinking?

That's all I got

Redline ----> + 8 points

Whisper ----> + 8 Points

Han Gunner ----> + 6 points

They could only hit these 3 and the game would be completely fine.

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

Han Gunner up to 10. What in the Hoth were they thinking?

Might want to specify Scum, though implied by "up to" miss types and autocorrect happens.

49 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Han Gunner ----> + 6 points

Which one? I could see Rebel Han at 18 easy.

7 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Interesting that everyone on the thread so far has gone for points increases, even though there's a number of things generally agreed to be overcosted too.

Good point. I could honestly not care less about cheap and powerful things. I'm quite happy losing to a skilled opponent flying such stuff. I'd rather be able to squeeze a bit more into less fashionable lists to help out against them.

Down. Down. Down.

TIE Aggressor.

Fifth Brother.

Grand Inquisitor crew.

Just because they're things I use or want to use but can't afford in a halfway effective list. That I like.

59 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Might want to specify Scum, though implied by "up to" miss types and autocorrect happens.

Which one? I could see Rebel Han at 18 easy.

Heck, both!

Rebel Han Gunner is fair if not used with Roark, but that combo... It's probably not OP, but I tend to think it's no fun.

Might be better to just have a "restricted" list. Can't use them together or such.

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Heck, both!

Rebel Han Gunner is fair if not used  with Roark, but that combo... It's probably not OP, but I tend to think it's no fun.

Might be better to just have a "restricted" list. Can't use them together or such.

I think they needed to constrain the rules around bonus attacks. Shots outside of your initiative order, verteran gunner shots, Quick Draw, Jostero, ect and just lump a lot of these into "bonus attack" categories. Then rule that each ship may only perform "One Bonus Attack Per Round". Maybe instead of "Bonus" it should have been labeled "Special Attack" or something a little more vague in description.

This way Dash can still Han up to i7, but the interaction with Roark still falls under the "Bonus" category. Gotta pick one or the other.

17 minutes ago, viedit said:

I think they needed to constrain the rules around bonus attacks. Shots outside of your initiative order, verteran gunner shots, Quick Draw, Jostero, ect and just lump a lot of these into "bonus attack" categories. Then rule that each ship may only perform "One Bonus Attack Per Round". Maybe instead of "Bonus" it should have been labeled "Special Attack" or something a little more vague in description.

This way Dash can still Han up to i7, but the interaction with Roark still falls under the "Bonus" category. Gotta pick one or the other.

That just might be how they solve it. Rules Reference can be reworded to bonus attacks can only be made at a ship's unmodified initiative or lower. It'll nerf Jostero a bit but he can just be priced down to compensate.

44 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

That just might be how they solve it. Rules Reference can be reworded to bonus attacks can only be made at a ship's unmodified initiative or lower. It'll nerf Jostero a bit but he can just be priced down to compensate.

...so no one can use Han gunner?

brockets and ptorps are not a problem. Theyre fine where they are, very threatening but expensive enough to not be auto include.

Heck barrage is only a problem with Jonus around.

Jonus bumped up 5pts -> 41pts base. Someone who is literally a superior Howlrunner should not be cheaper than Howlrunner...this prevents the 5 bomber bs some people been doing, dropping it to 4 which is still a threat but more manageable.
Scum Han Gunner -> 10pts. Dude is comparible to Force Crew in levels of efficiency, but cost of stress so he isnt the 12-14pts Force crew typically are. He should be just behind them in price, not half.
Bombletts -> 4pts. Proton bombs arent broken at 5 but the gauranteed crit is often better than potential 2 noncrit. Shedding a point is sufficient to squeeze it in a list that Protons wont fit but Seismics are undesirable.

6 hours ago, Maui. said:

...so no one can use Han gunner?

Ah yeah. That's right. Sigh. Oh well. Not sure how to write it to fix it....

Thankfully we won't be seeing yt2400 in hyperspace for a couple of years. If ever. HWK maybe as well.

I would change the point costs on:

Kanan Jarrus Ship -10 points to 80 (for being lower PS skill and having an absolute garbage Ability that doesn't work on half your list which is himself)

Kanan Jarrus Crew-4 points to 10 (most expensive crew for an ok effect and add a force, yeah he needs to come down. Hera wants him for crew, but between him and the next reduction wish you may as well just bring AP-5 instead)

Ezra Bridger Gunner-6 points to 12 (ok so veteran turret gunner has the same effect for less than half the cost. In order to trigger Ezra's "bonus" you have to a.) have fired a primary attack, b.) be stressed for half of it to trigger and c.) spend the Force point he grants to allow you to do the same thing as the much cheaper VTG and all you get is to reroll one measly die, definitely not worth it over the other much more interesting gunner choices or the substantially cheaper VTG)

11 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

brockets and ptorps are not a problem. Theyre fine where they are, very threatening but expensive enough to not be auto include.

Heck barrage is only a problem with Jonus around.

Jonus bumped up 5pts -> 41pts base. Someone who is literally a superior Howlrunner should not be cheaper than Howlrunner...this prevents the 5 bomber bs some people been doing, dropping it to 4 which is still a threat but more manageable.
Scum Han Gunner -> 10pts. Dude is comparible to Force Crew in levels of efficiency, but cost of stress so he isnt the 12-14pts Force crew typically are. He should be just behind them in price, not half.
Bombletts -> 4pts. Proton bombs arent broken at 5 but the gauranteed crit is often better than potential 2 noncrit. Shedding a point is sufficient to squeeze it in a list that Protons wont fit but Seismics are undesirable.

I'm persuaded on Jonus versus Barrage Rockets, but protorps are way too cheap. They cost less for two charges than Harpoons did in 1e, whilst needing only one slot and doing more or less the same thing (4 die attack with TL, no range bonus), in an environment with a much lower average defence available.

But like I said upthread, I'd prefer to fix them to make them less good on the alpha by mechanics, than just by points.

But sadly, I think that ship has sailed.

19 hours ago, Cloaker said:

1) Proton Torpedoes to 13; right now they're too much of auto include for most ordnance lists over all other torps and missiles

I think at least in part that's down to not just points cost but also the fact that the other options are all quite underwhelming or overly restrictive on 3 dice primary ships. Proton Torpedoes add something meaningful to the offensive output of something like an X-Wing, the others don't.

Barrage rockets are an exception to this mainly because they don't need a target lock to shoot, which makes them much more viable on lower Initiative pilots.

This isn't to say that Proton Torpedoes aren't a bit cheap for what they do, but they don't have much competition either.

22 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Soontir might not really need a price increase (dude can easily pop), but maybe nearly all Init 5 and 6 ships should be up 1 or 2 points. Or rather, I can conceive of a rational design and pricing scheme where nearly all Init 5 and 6 ships are 1 or 2 points more than they currently are. It's not the only good scheme, or necessarily a 100% perfect design scheme, but it'd be a totally sane direction to go.

Yeah, I can get on board with this.

It pains me to say it given how long I've wanted him to be playable, but I could deal with Wedge going up 1-2 points, for example. I think Soontir is a better ship than him, even with the scary low HP and green dice reliance, but Wedge at the moment feels like his I6 is being abused.

54 points would still put him cheaper than 1e, which is good. It would put him a fraction more expensive than the Retrofit fix and without the talent discount, but he'd still have access to torps and talents are way less essential now anyway.

The current crop of dominant I5s are all in the same boat. Especially Redline. And probably Boba and Guri too.

20 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

What if they *were* 37 points, for 5x Tempest + FCS? I kinda don't think that'd be a problem (Five. Cartel. Marauders. are decent enough, but not a problem--I kind of think 5 Rookiee Pilots with FAA at the end of 1e was a problem, but I'm a crank about some things). It'd also be a really unique design. A great many ships in this game are built around the power of the first engagement. Proton Torpedo Alpha Strikes, for example. But 5 FCS Tempests is a list which is going to be really weak on the opening, but maybe can come back over time. That'd be a nifty design space.

More good thoughts.

I wanted to say that the better dial and 3 green dice would make 5x Tempests strictly better than 5.C.M. but actually I'm not sure that's true with the awkwardness of the TL requirement. Even being lenient enough to include FCS doesn't seem so bad. They would then definitely be better than 5CMs, but only against specific targets. You'd get this interesting Hunter-Killer vibe.

The other point in its favour is.... well why not?

TIE Advanceds aren't being played at the moment, why not throw them this 5 ship option bone and see what falls out? If it's way too good, you can just up the price a bit again and restore order. Sure, it might dominate at a tournament or two but is that really such a bad thing? It's Darth Vader's ship!

I think it's far more likely that people won't want to run the 5xT/x1 list anyway and will just take the point cut as a boost to the named aces.