1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

The thing with Palob is he is at most detrimental against a single ship. And now he can’t store more than 2 tokens. Many players (over)react against him and just use Target Locks, for dice mod. But here’s the thing, 3 or more ships in range can all Focus if they want to, and only 1 will be out a Focus token. He can’t handle Focus Fire, and if he’s cloaking then he’s not shooting. And some pilots (*cough* Force users) can get by without bothering to Focus.

Plus I understand Palob really hates getting hit by a Torp, and bomb. From the same Punisher in the same turn.

He used to be able to stack more than 2?! How did this guy make it into 2E at all?

And part of the problem is that even if you have multiple ships Focusing, it's not just one losing a Focus, but him gaining a Focus as well. This guy's a priority target for me every single time I see him on the table, and I've still never managed to get more than one shield off of him.

58 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

He used to be able to stack more than 2?! How did this guy make it into 2E at all?

And part of the problem is that even if you have multiple ships Focusing, it's not just one losing a Focus, but him gaining a Focus as well. This guy's a priority target for me every single time I see him on the table, and I've still never managed to get more than one shield off of him.

I v1, the Moldy Crow title allowed the HWK to hold all it’s Focus Tokens. A limit was put onto it in v2. Also keep in mind the HWK was far worse in v1. I used to regularly get Kyle Katarn up to a stack of 10+ focus tokens thanks to Recon Specialist.

The thing is it doesn’t matter much if Palob is gaining another token. By the time he engages in combat, he should have his max of two tokens, plus a temporary third (or fourth). With Perceptive CoPilot (expensive) and stealing a token, he could be up to 5. If we assume that he doesn’t use any tokens during shooting, Palob will reset back down to two tokens. Generally speaking Palob will almost always be starting the shooting phase with at least two tokens in reserve, provided he’s stuck in the thick of it. So all he is effectively doing by stealing a token is making sure that 1 opposing ship loses it’s token, while ensuring he has at least 1 token.

8 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

So all he is effectively doing by stealing a token is making sure that 1 opposing ship loses it’s token, while ensuring he has at least 1 token.

Except that the more tokens he has, the more attacks he can modify his defenses against and still retain a couple, which is precisely what he needs if you're focusing fire on him.

Palob with debris gambit makes him even more durable. sit by a rock take white evade and have 2 focus (at least) for extra defense if needed.

10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Except that the more tokens he has, the more attacks he can modify his defenses against and still retain a couple, which is precisely what he needs if you're focusing fire on him.

Except he has 2 agility, 3 if obstructed or range 3, and no way to modify blanks (barring Debris Gambit or stealing an Evade), he’s not likely to be doing to well when smacked by something like a fully modded torp. Yeah, he’ll have focus tokens to spare unless you’ve got a swarm (also viable). But you can still get damage through.

5 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Except he has 2 agility, 3 if obstructed or range 3, and no way to modify blanks (barring Debris Gambit or stealing an Evade), he’s not likely to be doing to well when smacked by something like a fully modded torp. Yeah, he’ll have focus tokens to spare unless you’ve got a swarm (also viable). But you can still get damage through.

So any Imperial list that doesn't have torpedoes is doomed. Great game design, that.

I'm also a Defender guy. Of the list, maybe 4-LOM. He can K-Turn chain almost better than my Deltas, and I hate having to clear stress on Defenders.

I'd also be keen to try my wits against a Jakku mini-swarm, like 3 JGRs, Drea, and some other ship(s). I'm not too worried, but it'd be interesting to fight. I've faced a list with a single JGR, and wasn't too bothered with it. I saw that I'd probably get tractored, that my 4-K would be blocked if I was, and just dialed in a 3-bank. The rest of the list fell, and I just had to mow the Quad.

The rest? I ain't scared of your five fingers! I ain't scared of you mo********ers!

For Palob, he can't steal your evade tokens if you don't take evade actions.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

So any Imperial list that doesn't have torpedoes is doomed. Great game design, that.

That’s one **** of a conclusion to jump to. There’s a considerable list of things Palob doesn’t like, such as crits being snuck in under his shield(s) from Seyn Marana and Zertik Strom. Add Palpatine for insurance if you have space, or Marksmanship to Seyn Marana to aid in crit-fishing. He also really hates it when Vessery has Juke, a Focus and Evade, and a friendly target-locking Palob already. No matter which token he steals, it’s bad for him.

13 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

There’s a considerable list of things Palob doesn’t like, such as crits being snuck in under his shield(s) from Seyn Marana and Zertik Strom.

Hm...I hadn't seen Seyn before, so that's definitely a ship to keep in mind in the future. Though, seeing as how he's got such a great ability and will be a massive target for the enemy, I'm a bit skeptical as to whether he'd actually survive long enough to even get a shot off, much less manage to roll one of the Crits he needs for his ability.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Hm...I hadn't seen Seyn before, so that's definitely a ship to keep in mind in the future. Though, seeing as how he's got such a great ability and will be a massive target for the enemy, I'm a bit skeptical as to whether he'd actually survive long enough to even get a shot off, much less manage to roll one of the Crits he needs for his ability.

At 31 points with Marsksmanship, you can afford to not care about a Tie Fighter’s survival. Strom pairs nicely with him, because he can flip that damage card. And the two come in at under 80pts. Pair them with a real threat or two, like Redline, Whisper... Vessery, etc, and it’s easy to overlook those two crappy named ships.

2 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

At 31 points with Marsksmanship, you can afford to not care about a Tie Fighter’s survival.

This statement is a lot less true when the entire purpose of including said TIE on the list in the first place is for it to last long enough to get at least one shot off at a particular target.

And I maintain that I should not have to build my entire list around countering one, specific pilot who I may or may not even encounter. You should definitely consider multiple threats the opponent may present when building your list, but it shouldn't come down to, "Opponent plays X. If I have Counter-X, it's a non-issue. If I don't have Counter-X, my entire list is dead."

Ah, well. I guess Separatist droid ships will be a hard counter to Palob, at least.

Nothing about Seyn Marano is intended to be the anti-Palob. They’re just a really cheap named Tie Fighter with an often underestimated ability, who also happens to be Initiative 4 (Palob is 3). And you’re right, you shouldn’t have to design your list around countering him. Because you don’t actually have to. Empire has quite a few useful dirty tricks that aren’t focused around any given threat. Even a Black Squadron Tie Swarm with Crackshot can seriously mess up Palob’s day.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

For Palob, he can't steal your evade tokens if you don't take evade actions.

If ur not ever taking an evade for fear of it getting stolen then Palob is doing his job.

Played a small tourney over the weekend. Every single list has Palob I faced, and all but one had a Jakku.

Was flying my typical mind melter of Whisper with Juke-Sloane, Echo with juke Vader, Del Meeko and Scourge with Swarm Tactics.

i Lost one match when the second round of shooting went horribly sideways, cloaked Whisper just whiffing on defense from two shots and winding up at 1 health with Console Fire, against Boba, 4-Lom, and Palob.

But all day I was fighting to control range. It was decidedly hard, the preponderance of tugs and Palob are absolutely devistating. The first match ended with a score of 56-18 victory because while I wasn’t taking damage, I could only ever really take range 3 shots and just keep bending the cloak to stay there with Echo. So I couldn’t push damage either.

That’s the trouble. These ships don’t have the health to just dive in there and go all in on the attack. Not if your opponent keeps the ships together. And keeping at range means you will struggle to push damage through the focus stack.

Vader crew may be very good, but when you have to decide whether to make use of the ability or lose your evade? Well Vader becomes a 14 point dead weight. A Phantom without evade is a dead phantom.

So, by far, Palob. Tractors are tough, and a well used one can become an impossible to avoid fleet disruption. I literally had a pair send my TIE/ln’s off into the nether regions for 3 turns with no hope of getting meanignfully back into the fight in a particular well played match. But they can be worked around with my Phantoms. But Palob is so overwhelmingly the one most disruptive to my planning. Because against Palob if I screw up once, misjudge range one time, I am quite possibly dead.

There is no other pilot that comes close to being that overwhelmingly altering how I have to play.

7 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

If ur not ever taking an evade for fear of it getting stolen then Palob is doing his job.

Real game example: I've killed Sol Syxxa, killed Jostero, and it's just Palob left. I'm just Locking and not taking my Full Throttle Evades on my Defenders, since I've got the HP and Green Dice to trade shots with him to finish things off.

I'll take my Evades early game, when I'm still trying to survive other ships, but it was just too good of a chance to use Roll Safe.

I'm shocked no one has mentioned Torkil Mux.

Sure Palob steals a token. But Mux makes that IN6 Vader or IN5 Whisper shoot last at IN 0. Ever had Vader PS killed before he could shoot? I've done it. Mux is more popular in our local meta than Palob.

Mux doesn't slot into lists as easily as scum vader... I mean palob.

9 minutes ago, IceManHG said:

I'm shocked no one has mentioned Torkil Mux.

Sure Palob steals a token. But Mux makes that IN6 Vader or IN5 Whisper shoot last at IN 0. Ever had Vader PS killed before he could shoot? I've done it. Mux is more popular in our local meta than Palob.

Mux is under the radar right now with Palob being as efficient as he is. The lack of a Talent slot also isn't endearing him to many, interestingly enough.

1 hour ago, IceManHG said:

I'm shocked no one has mentioned Torkil Mux.

Sure Palob steals a token. But Mux makes that IN6 Vader or IN5 Whisper shoot last at IN 0. Ever had Vader PS killed before he could shoot? I've done it. Mux is more popular in our local meta than Palob.

Shhhhhhh.....

Don’t tell them there’s another troll-HWK pilot!

2 hours ago, Carnor Rex said:

Mux doesn't slot into lists as easily as scum vader... I mean palob.

Now, is that really a fair comparison? Vader offers the opponent a choice, and has to give up a very useful token to do so. Palob gains a token and offers the opponent no chance to keep theirs. Not to mention upgrading your ship with Vader costs a lot more than upgrading a generic HWK to Palob, and uses up a very useful Crew slot.

Vader is powerful, don't get me wrong, but it just feels like a lot more thought about costs and tradeoffs went into one than went into the other.

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Now, is that really a fair comparison? Vader offers the opponent a choice, and has to give up a very useful token to do so. Palob gains a token and offers the opponent no chance to keep theirs. Not to mention upgrading your ship with Vader costs a lot more than upgrading a generic HWK to Palob, and uses up a very useful Crew slot.

Vader is powerful, don't get me wrong, but it just feels like a lot more thought about costs and tradeoffs went into one than went into the other.

All of this. The only thing Vader has that Palob doesn’t is the free force token if you don’t use his ability. But when compared to the Moldy Crow token stack?

It is legitimately one of, if not the most, powerful pilot ability in game.

17 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Now, is that really a fair comparison? Vader offers the opponent a choice, and has to give up a very useful token to do so. Palob gains a token and offers the opponent no chance to keep theirs. Not to mention upgrading your ship with Vader costs a lot more than upgrading a generic HWK to Palob, and uses up a very useful Crew slot.

Vader is powerful, don't get me wrong, but it just feels like a lot more thought about costs and tradeoffs went into one than went into the other.

If we’re talking about the cost to upgrade a generic HWK to Palob, then we should also be adding in the cost for the Moldy Crow title (12 points for title, 18pts for full upgrade to Palob with Title). Without the Moldy Crow, Palob’s not much of a threat, and is just an annoyance.

That said, I would be 100% alright with Palob going up in points cost. Even so much as 48pts base, not counting title (would make him 60 with Moldy Crow). He is certainly a very good pilot, for how well he trolls your opponent. And his ability is a lot more potent in v2 where token-stacking is far more rare.

20 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

If we’re talking about the cost to upgrade a generic HWK to Palob, then we should also be adding in the cost for the Moldy Crow title (12 points for title, 18pts for full upgrade to Palob with Title). Without the Moldy Crow, Palob’s not much of a threat, and is just an annoyance.

I had considered that, but the non-Palob HWKs can take it to, so I consider it more a cost of the platform itself than a cost to Palob, specifically.

8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I had considered that, but the non-Palob HWKs can take it to, so I consider it more a cost of the platform itself than a cost to Palob, specifically.

With respect, I disagree. The incentive is not the same for Torkil Mux, a generic Spice Runner, or Dace Bonearm (who is largely useless in v2). Whereas for Palob the player WILL give him the title, because it synergizes with his ability. Much like Kyle Katarn on the Rebel side.

And regardless of whether other HWKs can take the title, the proof of which pilot makes the most use of it is a simple question:

-If you were to run 4 HWK-290s in a list, consisting of each available Scum pilot, which one would you give the Moldy Crow to? The answer will always be the same.

Han gunner is too cheap. probably will go up to at least 8pts.

I hope they leave Palob where he is but i can see the title going up a few pts. If he gets nerfed too much I think Scum might just default to Torkil Mux.

Jakku Gunrunner is too cheap, probably by about 3-4pts.

The game is in a good place right now so they wont go too crazy out of the gates. imo other pilots need a boost so they will get played more. When i look at building a list there is a limited list of pilots that I will consider as good enough or worth their points.

Upgrades that need looking at are Proton Torps, Juke, and perhaps Advanced Sensors because it bends the rules and makes taking actions every turn automatic unless ur stressed at the start of the turn. Its an auto include on 4-LOM the stress giving machine.