This question was just submitted via the Rules Questions on Organized Play.

Legend of the Five Rings LCG
Honor Dial Starting Values

I have examined your Rules Document, along with the rulings you have made about Good Omen. I have not found any verbiage about the starting value of the Honor Dial during the Setup.

1a) In specific, do players as part of Setup set their Honor Dials to a particular numeric value? If so, what is that value?

OR

1b) Do players start a game with their Honor Dials set to the "blank" space?

If 1b is true, my following question relates to that "blank" space.

2a) Is the "blank" value of an Honor Dial considered to be an invalid target for comparisons? I.E. The "Blank" value cannot be greater than, less than, or equal to any other value, even another "Blank" value.

OR

2b) Is the "blank" value of an Honor Dial considered to be a valid target for comparisons?

If 2b is true, the following question:

3) How does a "blank" value interact with a numeric value? Is a "blank" value considered 0? Which values on the Honor Dial is "blank" greater than, less than, or equal to?

In Game Situation:
Player A and Player B begin a game. Players complete set up, and proceed to Dynasty Phase. Dynasty Phase passes, Draw Phase is about to begin. Player A plays "Trading on the Sand Road". The Draw Phase is skipped. The Conflict Phase begins. Player B declares a conflict with a character. Player A targets that character with Maze of Illusion, and resolves its effects.

At this point in the game state, Player A has a value on their Honor Dial set by Maze of Illusion, while Player B has a value on their Honor Dial set by the set up of the game. Player A and Player B now have the opportunity to play Good Omen. Can they?

I'll be curious to see the ruling but my take would be no you can't use Good Omen as "-" or Blank is not the same as 0. But that would just by my gut call and am curious what the actual response will be.

I’d say that the Honor Dials don’t “enter play” until the first draw phase. So, if you skip that draw phase, you cannot use any action that targets a dial.

There’s nothing during “Setup” that says you have to prepare the dials, or even put them in the table. Contrary to tokens and rings, which explicitly says that you have to create a pool with them.

The problem with the RRG right now is that Honor Dials are not actually mentioned during Set Up at all. They get referenced later on, in the turn progression during the Draw Phase. However, Setup does not mention the dials at all. It mentions Deck Construction, setting up the Honor and Fate banks, the Unclaimed Rings, etc. No mention of the Honor Dials at all.

I expect the ruling is going to come down that this is an oversight, and "Collect Honor Dials" is going to put into the Setup between "Shuffle dynasty and conflict decks" and "Place provinces and stronghold", and the honor dials are going to be set to 1 as part of that step.

Yeah but the real question is did you see the Shadowlands RPG stuff.............

2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Yeah but the real question is did you see the Shadowlands RPG stuff.............

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5 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Are you not on my Twitter feed? Or did not you not hear my exultations of maniacal glee from there?

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Yes, yes I do........

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I thought it was stated explicitly somewhere that the dials start on the blank space, but I can't seem to find it now. Dials are mentioned in the "Place Provinces and Stronghold" setup step in the Learn to Play document, but not in the Rules Reference... even so, it still doesn't say exactly what value the dials start on.

1 hour ago, twinstarbmc said:

I thought it was stated explicitly somewhere that the dials start on the blank space, but I can't seem to find it now. Dials are mentioned in the "Place Provinces and Stronghold" setup step in the Learn to Play document, but not in the Rules Reference... even so, it still doesn't say exactly what value the dials start on.

Hence my follow up questions. It was clarified during the Kiku Matsuri (not sure if it ever got online) on a ruling under Good Omen that the dials HAD to start on the Blank Space. Otherwise, there were players who were starting their dial at 1, letting their opponent set their dial to whatever, then dropping Good Omen during the Dynasty Phase.

If the dial is blank, is that blank greater than, less than, or equal to any other value? Can a Blank Value equal a Blank Value? Can I just use Kharmic Balance during the Dynasty Phase to completely wreck your mulligan?

A blank is the absence of a value, so I don't think it should be considered equal to another blank.

9 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

A blank is the absence of a value, so I don't think it should be considered equal to another blank.

Exactly. If they make the dials starting in the "Blank" value, they really do need to clarify that the "Blank" cannot be greater than, less than, or equal to any other value, including another "Blank" value. This will prevent a lot of weird corner case abuses (similar to how Adept of Shadows allowed Togashi Yokuni to bounce to your Conflict hand, and then could get shuffled into your deck by Karmic Balance, which is another corner case rules which breaks the intended purpose of how the game should work).

3 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

similar to how Adept of Shadows allowed Togashi Yokuni to bounce to your Conflict hand, and then could get shuffled into your deck by Karmic Balance, which is another corner case rules which breaks the intended purpose of how the game should work

This is a change I was very glad to see in the Rules Reference.

From Tyler Parrott:

Quote

When the game begins, neither player’s honor dial is set to a value that can be checked or interacted with by card effects. Until two or more players have their honor dials set to a value, card effects cannot compare between them.

Specifically:

-Before a player’s honor dial is set to a value, it cannot be referenced (by card abilities such as Web of Lies).

-Before a player’s honor dial is set to a value, even if an opponent’s is set (as by Maze of Illusion), it is neither higher than nor lower than the opponent’s, as a value cannot be compared to a non-value. Cards such as Good Omen or I Can Swim cannot be played if your honor dial (or that of your opponent) has not been set to a value yet.

A further follow up did confirm that the unset value also cannot be compared to an unset value, such as playing Karmic Balance during the first Dynasty phase.

So, here you go! First turn Trading On The Sand Road turns off Composure until at least the next Draw Phase or the first duel.

5 hours ago, sndwurks said:

So, here you go! First turn Trading On The Sand Road turns off Composure until at least the next Draw Phase or the first duel.

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