signoftheserpent said:

How do you define 'more important'? Criteria for importance vary from individual to individual.

First things first, releases to date, Rogue Trader is following the pattern established by Dark Heresy - first release post-rulebook is the GM's Toolkit (relatively quick and easy to produce in terms of written content), followed by a multi-adventure book (useful for many people, even if you and I happen to not be amongst them).

Secondly, Lure of the Expanse provided a little of everything in its content - a few adversaries (Eldar, including a starship; several rival Rogue Traders), examples of how to use the Endeavours system to its fullest (something that I've heard a lot of call for in places other than this forum) including a number of endeavours that can be detached from the main plot and used stand-alone with little difficulty, and detailed information on nearly half a dozen locations within the Koronus Expanse. It isn't as if the book can only be used as a single short campaign...

Thank you playtesters for letting us know this is not a dead product.

I would think it's in FFG's interest to let us know that, but what can you do.

Yeah, I'll say outright that Lure of the Expanse was by no means a 'wasted release'. It's not so much a set of adventures as it is a gazzeteer of interesting places with a discription of an overarching event happening amongst them. Very different from Purge the Unclean. Also, there's a ton of pre-made rogue trader adversaries, their ships, stats for Eldar (including their psykers!) and stats for the Aconite frigate and Eldar components. It's just as much a supplement book as an adventure book, and it seems to have learned in every way from (what I consider to have been) the mistake of releasing Purge the Unclean first for Dark Heresy.

MILLANDSON said:

The problem is that one way produces complaints, and the other produces complaints only from those who stay interested enough to stick around. Without something to anticipate, it's hard to keep the word-of-mouth going. Also, those of us here at the initial source of Rogue Trader news are angry and frustrated - those who are more passive in their news finding are rapidly slipping into "out of sight, out of mind."

My FLGS owner asked me if Rogue Trader had been canceled the other day, because while FFG is sending him all kinds of emails about board and card games, he's not hearing anything about 40K RPG anymore.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Now i'm not criticising LoE at all; i've gone to great pains to avoid that. I'm sure, as i've already said, the book per se is great quality.

But it's just (for the greater part) three adventures. I'm sure that's useful to some people and good luck to them, but it doesn't address what's missing or what's given reltively short shrift in the corebook.

I don't mind how many such books FFG release, just so long as they don't do so at the expense of what is needed. I don't believe it's fair to publish a print rpg and then leave out considerable and intrinsic difference on the belief that it's entirely part of the gaming experience to have to make it all up. Some people enjoy doing that, but not I - not to that extent. Isn't it a bit odd to have created a setting and then do nothing with it? In fact i had assumed, for the greatest time, that LoE was a gazetter and not at all a book of adventures (and i'd probably bought it if that were the case).

Psychopomp said:

First point: LoE isn't the sort of thing i'd buy. If i had unlimited funds I'd buy it without a second thought. But I don't. Is that fair? Probably not, but that's the way of the world. We can't all buy what we want. I am interested in the background stuff it contains (Eldar ship bits etc), but that comprises only a few pages out of a large book and it's just not worth it. I personally don't think that's the way game information should be handled. That info could have been put in the core book or compiled into a greater sourcbook for starships/alien races which is the one thing the game really needs, as i've said.

Second point: people sticking around. This is precisely the point - now RT will be competing against DW not only for resources from FFG but from fans' dollars. It's way more likely that support will be dropped as time goes on (yes i know that's rather doom laden, but you take my point) in favour of the new game as people are more lilely to play a) a Space Marine game of smiting the Emperor's foes and b) the newer product and c) the newer product is always perceived to get the support.

signoftheserpent said:

Excuse me for not peeing myself from joy here. Who wants to roleplay freaking space marines ? Oh, well...

Kyorou said:

Well FFG better hope that people do

I would estimate the main draw for a 40k game is going to be Space Marines, shortly followed by Inquisitors - if only because they have had the most attention from GW in their working of the 40k universe since it stopped being called Rogue Trader.

Besides which FFG are certainly not going to release DW and then switch to RT in order to release a bunch of supplements are they. The focus will be on DW as it should have been on RT. That release window surely ist the most important time, yet it really does seem to have passed RT by which is sad.

RT needs some new material slated pretty soon to cover a number of topics which have been mentioned in other threads and won't bother rehashing here. Out of the two, I still really enjoy running DH simply for the sheer amount of material I can access to give me ideas probably for a few years, but RT is the game I most enjoy playing and I can see it reaching something of a 'wall' if there is support material for GM's and players to diversify their game with. As for the Deathwatch, its a book I'd be very happy to own, (as is all the others that have been produced and bought) but in all honesty I don't think I would use it for anything more than support material for DH and RT games as I'm not entirely comfortable with the concept to run it as a stand alone.

I'm ok with no firm release dates, but in regards to the material forthcoming it'd be nice to know what's in the works so at least we can devote some spare time to house-rule things missing that we need in between releases.

EDIT-

It'd also be good to have a definative table for the games so if I want XXXX class/level from DH playing along someone from RT that is XXXX class/level from RT, I can simply say someone was this much XP and is comparative to each game.

MKX said:

It would certainly be entertaining to have a old-style Marine Company on the RT ship for 'conquests' that the players could play as a sort fo secondary group. Okay we're assaulting the Hi Eldar Enclave on Gulgon IV, send in the marines.

We've adopted two stray infantry regiments and play their officers when we use them against objectives. its been lots of fun, especially when the Commisar player gets to shoot a PC for not being brave'. That has happened twice and its been hilarious.

signoftheserpent said:

The thing with 40k in general, and Rogue Trader in particular, is that it's big. Really, really big. There's a lot to cover, and only a certain amount of space to cover it. Try covering one thing, and you'll disappoint those who were clamouring for something else.

Starships, character options, adversaries, planet information, GM guidance, equipment... those fairly broad categories pretty much cover most of what is being asked for by various parts of the various communities. Eldar, Orks, Kroot, pirates, servants of Chaos, other Rogue Traders, Imperial institutions benign and malevolent, the Rak'Gol, the Yu'vath, the Stryxis... that's the majority of the different factions present within just the Koronus Expanse... there's a lot of ground to cover.

My point here is thus: what is "important" covers a lot of material, depending on who you ask. Depending on how much detail is desired, that's a lot of page space, and several supplements worth of material to even scratch the surface. It takes time to write those supplements, and more to test, revise and compile them, and then more time still to lay the manuscripts out, add art and graphics, send it to the printers and await delivery of the books. It's not a quick process.

I'm one of FFG's freelance writers; have been for a few months now, and I've been busy writing for a significant portion of that time. Before, I'd quite happily throw out random profiles and rules and whatever things have sprung to mind, and things I'd written would appear whenever I chose to reveal them... so being in a situation now where I'm waiting on official announcements and release dates I'm not privy to before I can show off all the things I've written is agonising. I want to share it, I know that you guys want to see it... but I'd rather not be sued and lose the chance to write more stuff for FFG as a result of breaking my NDA.

There's stuff coming, and I'm really excited about seeing the community response to the things that've been developed and are being developed... but until a designer diary appears announcing something forthcoming, everyone's hands are tied.

Yes 40k is big.

No you don't need a million pages to cover enough to get people started. You give them the basics, you give them at least the foundation in a corebook.

4 individual npc's isn't the foundation.

Do I want individual stats for every single Xeno plus a complex treatise on their society and culture? Of course not.

Do I want more than 4 npc's and a couple of ships? Yes.

If FFG don't understand this, then they need to rethink their processes. RT is about interacting in space with alien races - if nothing else. Unfortunately the game doesn't give me the tools to do this without a huge amount of me fudging it. That's not what I paid for.

There aren't that many alien races in 40k. YOu don't actually need to devote space to a huge amount of stuff (I would gladly forfeit the adventure to include this stuff as i think it more relevant and put the adventure in a gm screen package). Eldar, Orks, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Necrons Tyranids and Tau. Well the Tau aren't hugely relevant at this point IMO. Orks don't need much at all since they are basically all about one thing. Necrons I personally would have included but you don't need much given they would likely overpower a RT crew. Tyranids you only need a couple of stats for genestealers since they will only really see use in Space Hulk fashion. That leaves Eldar, Dark Eldar and Chaos. Again you don't need much more than a few key npc templates and ship templates. Xeno gear/guns can be covered in the armoury section since it's not unlikely that RT's will wield such stuff given they can and are beyond the law, effectively.

Then you release a supplement giving more detail to the basic skeleton you provide in the core book.

The Rak'Gol, the Yu'vath, the Stryxis: well i'm sure they are great but those are races (IIRC) that are FFG inventions so they don't take priority over core 40k ideas. By all means put them in a book later.

Thing is, the longer it takes to get stuff out or even announce something the less succesful it will be. If a sourcebook comes out a year after RT is released - at the same time as DW - then a very bad decision has been made.

I would hazard a guess that Rogue Trader is going to see more attention than Dark Heresy. Ross Watson, a main DH writer, is tied up in Deathwatch after Ascension although it's clear they were written at roughly the same time. In addition, we know Stewart is the guiding hand on Rogue Trader and head of the "team" for the game. I don't have a clue who is in charge of the Dark Heresy "team"... and we can guess Watson is on Deathwatch.

So I would expect more products for Rogue Trader than Dark Heresy.

6Kilgs said:

signoftheserpent said:

400 pages is less room than it seems. Character creation and core character classes, rules for playing the game, skills, talents, psychic powers, navigator powers, background, starships, adversaries... things got cut from the rulebook. You want to include a dozen different alien starships from three or four different species, fine... remove something else. You want more NPCs, remove something else... just trading out the adventure - which you may not deem important, but which others may well do (you are, afterall, not the only customer here) - will not cut it in terms of providing that additional space, especially when trying to include all the other bits that got removed to fit the page count, many of which are desirable inclusions in their own right (such as vehicle rules, as was noted in one of the design diaries, which are another commonly-requested set of rules).

signoftheserpent said:

Great. So did I... but there's no room. There's a lot of 'bare essentials' that need to be covered by the rulebook, such that a lot of things had to be cut back to the absolute bare bones. Whether you agree with the final content or not, at least understand just how much breadth of content there is to cover, and consequently how much depth must be sacrificed in order to allow for that breadth, because there's insufficient room for both without making the book bigger.

signoftheserpent said:

You make it sound so simple... it's not. You want three additional Ork ships, that's a page and a half gone there, more if you want pictures. Eldar ships, as demonstrated in Lure of the Expanse, take up a little more room as their vessels don't quite work like those of most species, so maybe three pages for four ships. NPC profiles can fit 3-4 to a page, less if they're complicated or have additional unusual/unique rules or equipment, before considerations of background text to provide context, which again takes up more space, especially once art requirements are considered.

Needless to say, the process is more involved than that, and it's something I'm thankful I don't have to deal with directly.

signoftheserpent said:

So I imagine you'd have happily dropped the whole Koronus Expanse chapter as well, then? Afterall, that's not core 40k, it's just something FFG made up, so it can turn up later.

As much as you go on about this, it is still only your opinion, and while valid, it is hardly the only valid opinion.

I'm aware of the arguments, but room could have been found easily. Other people may well want the adventure and that's entirely fine, but it is by any objective measurement not a priority over rules. If nothing else it coudl have been made available as a downloadable pdf for free to accompany (and possible encourage sales) the game.

This argument gets made a lot about core rulebooks and in almost all cases it really doesn't hold water. Room could easily have been found.

However, regardless of what could have been, it's been 8 months since release and there isn't even a whiff of any such support coming out while at the same time a trio of adventures, with the odd smattering of background details (as relates to the adventures and not in general) has.

With respect, I would question the FFG's wisdom in this.

I would just like to thank those people in the "know" that posted here to inform us that there are goodies on the way and Rogue Trader hasn't been abandoned, I really look forward to the results of your work! That being said, I really hope those higher up in the company decide to let these people break their silence on some of this up coming material.

Despite the high quality product that Rogue Trader is, it does lack in some regions (you can only put so much into one book!). I think the fan base would love to hear some news, even bare bones news, one what kind of book will be next. I understand keeping silent on the matter if the books are not due to be out before the end of the summer, talking about them now might make the interest in them peak too soon.

So in closing.... I understand the need to stay "Mom" sometimes... but I also reeeally want to see what is coming up next.....

Jenk said:

Sometimes you even have to stay "Dad."

BTW, to those who question the release of an early adventure, I do not.

Many GMs ONLY use published adventures. Those GM's won't consider starting a campaign without some adventures ready to go.

Other GMs mix their own adventures with published ones and mod the published adventures to fit their group. They are more likely to start a campaign with some adventures out there.

Some GMs never use published adventures.

I don't know the breakdown, but I've played in many RPG campaigns since 1975 (yes, laugh at the old guy), and very few (10%?) were 100% GM designed adventures.

I, myself, am a Mix & Mod GM. I'm just starting Rogue Trader in late May / early June, now that I've digested Lure.

Nojo509 said:

Laugh at the old guy? Hardly. I will; however, point out that you have been gaming 2 years longer than I have been alive. I hope to still be an active and avid gamer in the years to come, and tip my hat to you and your experience. Bravo.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Nojo509 said:

I'm not sure what this tells us. Sure some people prefer published scenarios to creating their own, and that's entirely fine. But if that's the approach FFG are working with then they haven't given those players much love either.

signoftheserpent said:

Given it's the same approach at was taken with Dark Heresy, it's not that surprising. Plus, the majority of RPGs lines I've ever seen have always brought out a pre-written campaign as the first supplement. It's fairly standard practice, so I wouldn't have a go at FFG when the majority of RPG development companies do exactly the same thing.

As an aside to some points raised above ... where is it written in stone books (especially core books) can only be 400 pages long?

Before people rush to state any longer and the price would treble or something, remember Paizo's Pathfinder core rulebook (which retails for roughly the same price as RT iirc), an equally slickly produced, colour book, is about 150 or more pages longer. An exeption perhaps, but one that does make me question this almost doctrinal '400 and no more' stance.

Adam France said:

While more pages could be added, you can't simply add however many extra pages you might need - because of the techniques used in binding, you have to add a certain amount of additional pages (though I don't remember the details; it's part of the reason most RPG books are the same sorts of sizes, though).

Beyond that, it will cost more with every page added - costs for writing, costs for artwork, increased printing costs and so forth. It'll also take longer to produce.

It's not impossible, but it's not simply a matter of throwing a few more pages in there.

And that's beyond considerations of context - different companies will, by merit of their situations, make different decisions. Paizo aren't, amongst other things, dealing with licenced IP like FFG are...

MILLANDSON said:

Nope. Dark Heresy was released in the following order:

Core Book

GM Screen

Purge The Unclean (book of three adventures)

And given that Purge the Unclean is a poor book compared to Lure of the Expanse, I would say that the development up to now, compared to Dark Heresy in the same position, is better.

Happy birthday, Millandson.