Ok, I get that higher Initiative means you get to react to an opponent’s Maneuver with your Action and you get to shoot first. But is spending points on a higher Initiative pilot always better than spending points on more offense at range like say Proton Torpedoes? Is the former really only the case if the pilot has Boost / Roll Actions and can Arc Dodge?
For discussions sake say Soontir I6 (52 points) vs Jonus I4 with Torpedoes (45 points).
Edited by KiloFiX9There are many factors to the whole intiative thing.
1. A lower In moves before a higher ones does, and this can make it hard to get locks at times for ordnance or modifications
2. Higher In shoots first and can possibly kill or cripple a ship before it can return fire.
3. Higher In can also arc dodge a lower In, making it so they can't even get a shot
Granted a higher In isn't all powerful but man it can make or break a game in some circumstances.
There's plenty of lower-initiative ships which are pretty solid.
Soontir probably is better than that Torpedo Bomber as a filler ship, because of his arc dodging. At the same time, a mini-swarm of Barrage Rocket TIE Bombers lead by a Barrage Rocket Jonus is itself a solid list. Heck, maybe Soontir is the filler for a bomber squad.
Wedge Antilles is a pretty good ship right now, in part because he's really strong against Whisper, one of the most flown Imperial ships. However, Wedge is almost surely going to be better in every way than a Red Veteran X-Wing with Proton Torpedoes. The Red Vet will have trouble getting Locks, and Wedge has both Init 6, as well as a pilot ability which also increases his damage.
It depends on ship type, pilot ability, what else is in your squad, what else is likely to be in your opponent's squad. One of my favorites 2e lists has been Two Delta Squadron TIE Defenders, plus an Omicron Shuttle with Emperor Palpatine, all Init 1. It says "I'll just take whatever you can throw at me, and hit you round after round after round." Engines of Inevitability. I've also loved flying Whisper. She's an absolute joy of a high-initiative ship. Or triple Fang aces.
Fenn Rau is another good example of someone who is ABSOLUTELY worth the price, compared to a lower-initiative Fang pilot with a Torpedo. Old Terroch might get picked over Fenn for his ability, but not for the extra punch of a Torpedo. Some squads might want a Torpedo Kavil (maybe with Han gunner...) instead of a Fenn Rau, but that's because they serve different roles.
Why would a Red Vet with Torpedoes have trouble getting a lock on Wedge?
Assuming it’s not the edge case where the Vet ends up just out of R3 before Wedge moves.
Thanks for the insights, I’m still new at flying.
Sometimes you outright want lower initiative for particular abilities to trigger properly.
12 minutes ago, KiloFiX9 said:Why would a Red Vet with Torpedoes have trouble getting a lock on Wedge?
Assuming it’s not the edge case where the Vet ends up just out of R3 before Wedge moves.
Thanks for the insights, I’m still new at flying.
Getting the lock wouldn't be the problem. Getting the lock and then making use of it in the same game round is. Due to Wedge's higher initiative he can make use of either a boost or barrel roll as his action during his activation to get out of or stay out of (Proton and Ion torps have a minimum range of 2 and a max of 3, Advanced Proton Torps can only shoot at targets in range 1) the threat area of the torpedoes.
Playing lower initiative ships revolves around denying higher initiative ships mobility options (via either positioning to try and force a bump from the higher initiative's maneuver which denies them an action and possibly a shot, or occupying places where the higher initiative might use a boost or barrel roll to get to keeping them in a kill box) while you get shoots in on the higher initiative ship.
Low I? You know exactly what moves to do, so you really can't be blocked, and are excellent at blocking.
Low I? Your targets will have frequently already spent their tokens on offense.
High I? Can kill people before even being shot.
High I? Can avoid low I's arcs.
High I? Will be able to get locks better
High I? Your attackers will frequently have already spent their tokens defending
Just a sampling. I, for one, don't mind working around low I at all
there are pros and cons to both ends of the initiative stick.
Advantages to higher initiative.
1. Move second, this is be far the biggest as it can result in you having a shot and your opponent not having one (only really applies to ships with repositioning that want to use it)
2. can kill ships or crit than before they can shoot (can be game changing)
Advantages of lower initiative.
1. move first, you know what areas of the board are safe to move in and you can set up to block the enemy leaving you with a token and them not. This is extremely powerful and can cancel out the main advantage to higher initiative if you block the higher initiative ship its board knowledge means nothing.
2. Token knowledge... this is massive and very much overlooked by most players. If my ships shoot after my opponent I know if I can freely spend my focus token on offense or not. I can not count the number of times I have shot first and opted to save a focus token for defense and ended up making myself sad. (say i rolled hit, focus, blank against a 3 agility ship at range 3 that had its own focus... Opting not to spend the focus as the odds are low you are going to do damage is probably the best choice, but then he rolls 1 evade and 3 blanks. Then you get shot at back by 3 ships and never roll a single focus thus wasting the focus that could have had you do 1 more damage)
There are many factors... even if you cant arc dodge yourself preventing the enemy from arc dodging you can be very valuable... but so can just blocking them.
To be very honest, in my list building now I very rarely care what initiative the pilots are beyond trying to have all my pilots be the same (crazy powerful to vary your order of movement or shooting). I like being higher and I like being lower. There are some ships I very much like having at high initiative soontir being the best example, but that being said I also love the initiative 1 alpha squad interceptors as well.
There are some ships I would love if they were lower initiative and some I would love to be higher.... really it's more about the ships and unique pilots and how they handle at their initiative level and less about initiative alone.
The best points have all been made so I'll just add this. I made the mistake of buying into the initiative hype early in 1.0. It's an arms race and a lazy way to play IMO. If your new to the game do yourself a favor and focus on flying better. Low initiative squads can be very rewarding. I killed soontir tonight with an academy pilot.
Edited by Carnor RexThanks all for the responses.
Partly for fun, partly as an experiment, I’m going to play a Rogue One - Blue Squadron : 3 XWing 1 UWing list this weekend. All at Initiative 2. Some of my buddies are making the blanket assumption that it’s a guranteed loss against an Initiative 5 list but I’m going to go down fighting lol (at least for as long as it takes to upload the plans).
4 minutes ago, KiloFiX9 said:Thanks all for the responses.
Partly for fun, partly as an experiment, I’m going to play a Rogue One - Blue Squadron : 3 XWing 1 UWing list this weekend. All at Initiative 2. Some of my buddies are making the blanket assumption that it’s a guranteed loss against an Initiative 5 list but I’m going to go down fighting lol (at least for as long as it takes to upload the plans).
Good luck.
5 minutes ago, KiloFiX9 said:Thanks all for the responses.
Partly for fun, partly as an experiment, I’m going to play a Rogue One - Blue Squadron : 3 XWing 1 UWing list this weekend. All at Initiative 2. Some of my buddies are making the blanket assumption that it’s a guranteed loss against an Initiative 5 list but I’m going to go down fighting lol (at least for as long as it takes to upload the plans).
Rolling yarro?
It depends alot on the ship and what its trying to do. I for one can tell you that scum Quad tugs are terrifying at I1 and are less so at higher initiatives. Going 1st means you know where wege is and can plan your move accordingly, their primary ability to tractor then fires before Wedge moves and you get to tractor him and change his position and wreck his plans.
10 hours ago, KiloFiX9 said:Ok, I get that higher Initiative means you get to react to an opponent’s Maneuver with your Action and you get to shoot first. But is spending points on a higher Initiative pilot always better than spending points on more offense at range like say Proton Torpedoes? Is the former really only the case if the pilot has Boost / Roll Actions and can Arc Dodge?
For discussions sake say Soontir I6 (52 points) vs Jonus I4 with Torpedoes (45 points).
Offense doesn't matter if you do not shoot the target. Aces want to go second so they repostion and not get shot at, Aces prefer the long game and will plink away slowly killing ships until they get the opportunity to boost in to range 1, unleash a massive shot and kill a big threat.
9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:Sometimes you outright want lower initiative for particular abilities to trigger properly.
Palob is a good example of this, he wants his abilities to trigger second so he can steal Guris Focus for example. If he goes first, Guri doesnt have it to steal yet.
Mostly you just want to have a reason to be buying the pilot that you're buying.
The best example is the slightly higher initiative generic pilots. If you are paying more points to go from, say, I1 to I3, but you aren't getting a pilot ability or using the I3 pilot's talent slot for anything, then you are paying points exclusively for the hope that your opponent has enough I1- I2 pilots for it to matter. If you have enough reason to believe doing that will be useful, then go for it, otherwise you are highly at risk of wasting those points.
9 hours ago, KiloFiX9 said:Thanks all for the responses.
Partly for fun, partly as an experiment, I’m going to play a Rogue One - Blue Squadron : 3 XWing 1 UWing list this weekend. All at Initiative 2. Some of my buddies are making the blanket assumption that it’s a guranteed loss against an Initiative 5 list but I’m going to go down fighting lol (at least for as long as it takes to upload the plans).
You have to play a bit different when using lower Init pilots. You have to be a bit conservative with your moves and set up fields of fire where you think they will move. DO NOT fly in formation as it will be easier for them to just avoid all of your arcs. Move in a group, but spread out a bit. Dont let someone get isolated, but set up different fields of fire. If you get them in your kill box, you can put the hurt on.
Having a very cheap blocker is good, too. Maybe a Z-95? Have it rush up while the rest stay back. If you get to block their ace you are golden. They are in your sights and have no tokens and you do.
Also, when playing High I pilots, players often pay an added tax in the form of a bid as well.
In general, higher initiative combined with the fact that higher initiative pilots seem to have the "best" (re: action-step independent dice modifying abilities) abilities makes it pretty overwhelmingly strong
The only real advantages of lower I, apart from blocking which isn't always a great deal, come from abilities that can trigger before the opponent moves (such as mines, rigged cargos chute, or the Quadjumper ability) or corner case pilots with hilariously potent abilities (Drea, Palob; Mux) OR pure support ships that you want to field as cheaply as possibly (such as the coordinating escape craft or ap-5)
You'd need a better player than I to sing the praises of squads made entirely of more "efficient" (lowest point cost relative to the number of total dice thrown by the list) lower I ships
If you like lower I, I'd say you should stick almost entirely to Drea + Quadjumper swarm or use the resistance bomber Edon
Edited by ficklegreendice11 hours ago, Carnor Rex said:Rolling yarro?
Was Yarro at Scarif? I’m just running Blue Scout at I2 along with the rest of Blue Escort (Torpedos and Droids) at I2.
I think this edition has balanced abilities much better than last. Plenty of initiative 5 or lower pilots have abilities at least equal if not superior to many i6 pilots. Barring a few exceptions.
2 minutes ago, KiloFiX9 said:Was Yarro at Scarif? I’m just running Blue Scout at I2 along with the rest of Blue Escort (Torpedos and Droids) at I2.
Still, her crew card is pretty good.
17 hours ago, KiloFiX9 said:Ok, I get that higher Initiative means you get to react to an opponent’s Maneuver with your Action and you get to shoot first. But is spending points on a higher Initiative pilot always better than spending points on more offense at range like say Proton Torpedoes? Is the former really only the case if the pilot has Boost / Roll Actions and can Arc Dodge?
For discussions sake say Soontir I6 (52 points) vs Jonus I4 with Torpedoes (45 points).
Just curious but is this your first foray into X-wing or have you played the earlier version?
So higher Initiative (pilot skill on a reduced spectrum) allows you to move after other pilots so you can target lock a ship that has already moved into your firing arc and shoot first so you can get a killing blow before the other ship gets a chance to attack. It is supposed to represent a pilot's reaction time to an engagement. The idea is better pilots with more skill and experience can react better. If a low initiative pilot target locks you, you have a chance to move out of its firing arc or destroy it before it can attack.
14 hours ago, KiloFiX9 said:Thanks all for the responses.
Partly for fun, partly as an experiment, I’m going to play a Rogue One - Blue Squadron : 3 XWing 1 UWing list this weekend. All at Initiative 2. Some of my buddies are making the blanket assumption that it’s a guranteed loss against an Initiative 5 list but I’m going to go down fighting lol (at least for as long as it takes to upload the plans).
Sounds like fun! This is another thing I like about low-init ships; the possibility of having multiple, or ALL of your squad at the same initiative. Being able to choose which order they activate and engage each round is nice.
54 minutes ago, Marinealver said:Just curious but is this your first foray into X-wing or have you played the earlier version?
So higher Initiative (pilot skill on a reduced spectrum) allows you to move after other pilots so you can target lock a ship that has already moved into your firing arc and shoot first so you can get a killing blow before the other ship gets a chance to attack. It is supposed to represent a pilot's reaction time to an engagement. The idea is better pilots with more skill and experience can react better. If a low initiative pilot target locks you, you have a chance to move out of its firing arc or destroy it before it can attack.
I played first edition over a year ago. But not more than say 10 games. I’ve since played 3 second edition games in the last month or so.