5 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I think part of what determines starting wealth is also what the average starting samurai is expected to need. With few exceptions, within a clan typically courtier families provide a larger stipend than bushi families, who are still more generous than shugenja families. Monk families are, fittingly, making theirs do with the smallest disposable income. The Hiruma are an obvious example, having lost much of their lands (and thus income) to the Shadowlands.

Courtiers are expected to travel more and to spend money on building their network - they need a lot of discretionary money. Shugenja and monks are expected to stay at a temple and have their needs seen to by that temple, with monks also expected to be somewhat ascetic in their lifestyle. Bushi fall somewhere in between (most of their needs are taken care of for them as well, but every military organisation ever knows very well the importance of letting soldiers blow off steam every now and then). Bushi families also typically need a lot more money to provide for their retainers' upkeep, because of sheer numbers alone - the Daidoji as an organisation have massive day-to-day expenses compared to the other Crane families.

Most of this is right, except the part about shugenja. Emerald Empire specifically says that shugenja who stay at a specific temple are a rarity: the exception, not the rule. They're simply too important to Rokugan's religious life, and too rare, to keep most of them sitting in one place year-round.

On 12/15/2018 at 1:21 PM, Daeglan said:

I think option 3 is good.

So for example a Mirumoto Bushi would get 150 Koku yearly and a Doji would get 240 Koku

Option 3 makes the most sense for me as well, with the idea that the stipend is likely not annual, but every 3-6 months (likely depending on availability of the samurai, and clan/family tradition). It just doesn't make much sense to give someone all their spending money at once. I'd even go so far as to suggest a 'large' half-stipend after tax season in the fall: another stipend after the winter, and another in early summer, both representing a quarter of the samurai's total income (just for a fluffy system that reflects the influx of wealth from tax season, not necessarily the system you should use for simplicity's sake). That said, it makes more sense as based on status rank imo, than status. 15, and 24, koku are a substantial fortune still, and way more than a samurai needs to provide for themselves, including some nice clothes, and still pick up some rather expensive and/or rare odds and ends.

3 minutes ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Most of this is right, except the part about shugenja. Emerald Empire specifically says that shugenja who stay at a specific temple are a rarity: the exception, not the rule. They're simply too important to Rokugan's religious life, and too rare, to keep most of them sitting in one place year-round.

I didn't mean one specific temple - I meant that even when away from home they're unlikely to stay at an inn if there's a temple which can provide food and board. And when they are performing their duties as priests, clearly they aren't expected to provide money for their stay: the blessings and rituals they perform more than make up for the local community providing that for them.

7 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I didn't mean one specific temple - I meant that even when away from home they're unlikely to stay at an inn if there's a temple which can provide food and board. And when they are performing their duties as priests, clearly they aren't expected to provide money for their stay: the blessings and rituals they perform more than make up for the local community providing that for them.

Ooooh. Okay, I get that. I'd mainly agree with that. A lot of the work of low-level shuggies is probably monitoring/checking on shrines, and learning their traditions, within their clan's land. If they start going around with an entourage, I think it'd start to be a stretch to expect the temples to look after them, but most of the cosmopolitan Empire is pretty safe, near the Imperial roads and such.

On 12/15/2018 at 9:21 PM, Daeglan said:

I think option 3 is good.

So for example a Mirumoto Bushi would get 150 Koku yearly and a Doji would get 240 Koku

A fresh from gempukku bushi getting 150 koku per year seems a bit much if we're talking about a discretionary stipend. Total yearly budget, including spending money but also everythig else their daimyo provides, before the steward starts to cut them off, maybe - but that's still over 12 koku every month.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

A fresh from gempukku bushi getting 150 koku per year seems a bit much if we're talking about a discretionary stipend. Total yearly budget, including spending money but also everythig else their daimyo provides, before the steward starts to cut them off, maybe - but that's still over 12 koku every month.

As Isawa Miyu stated, it makes more sense to use Status rank (and the initial suggestion explicitly coming from earlier editions, this makes sense as Status was on a 1 to 10 scale). Even then, it can seem like a lot... but not unreasonable.

30 minutes ago, Franwax said:

As Isawa Miyu stated, it makes more sense to use Status rank (and the initial suggestion explicitly coming from earlier editions, this makes sense as Status was on a 1 to 10 scale). Even then, it can seem like a lot... but not unreasonable.

Status as a monthly stipend for "pocket money" makes a fair amount of sense if you look at the values, especially since somewhere around rank 5 most samurai will have an actual income from holdings they're managing themselves and this stipend is no longer relevant. It does mean every samurai of a given clan gets the same amount if they're of equal status, regardless of if they're bushi, courtier or shugenja (or any more specific type of retainer); I'm not sure that's really appropriate. Then again, if the GM wants income to matter it's probably easiest to just go with this as a starting figure: the actual amount will probably vary a lot based on accomplishments and glorious deeds leading to rewards.

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

It does mean every samurai of a given clan gets the same amount if they're of equal status, regardless of if they're bushi, courtier or shugenja (or any more specific type of retainer).

No, it doesn't, because the section Franwax is quoting says this:

11 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Option 3 makes the most sense for me as well, with the idea that the stipend is likely not annual, but every 3-6 months (likely depending on availability of the samurai, and clan/family tradition). It just doesn't make much sense to give someone all their spending money at once. I'd even go so far as to suggest a 'large' half-stipend after tax season in the fall: another stipend after the winter, and another in early summer, both representing a quarter of the samurai's total income (just for a fluffy system that reflects the influx of wealth from tax season, not necessarily the system you should use for simplicity's sake). That said, it makes more sense as based on status rank imo, than status. 15, and 24, koku are a substantial fortune still, and way more than a samurai needs to provide for themselves, including some nice clothes, and still pick up some rather expensive and/or rare odds and ends.

Meaning individual samurai schools still get a different income, adjusted by status rank.

5 minutes ago, Isawa Miyu said:

No, it doesn't, because the section Franwax is quoting says this:

Meaning individual samurai schools still get a different income, adjusted by status rank.

Schools differentiate Honor, not Status? Clans set Status, families Glory, schools Honor.

15 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Schools differentiate Honor, not Status? Clans set Status, families Glory, schools Honor.

Ah yes, that's right. At character creation your income will be identical barring Blessed Lineage, though still modified by family. Since family reflects your personal 'position' in terms of name-brand recognition, as it were, I think I'm still fine doing it that way, especially since it scales with status (so titles and the like raise it). That said, I think the only way to have a really satisfying and deep system, is for such a system to be built (either by FFG,or the playerbase), and any fix will have issues.

22 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Option 3 makes the most sense for me as well, with the idea that the stipend is likely not annual, but every 3-6 months (likely depending on availability of the samurai, and clan/family tradition). It just doesn't make much sense to give someone all their spending money at once. I'd even go so far as to suggest a 'large' half-stipend after tax season in the fall: another stipend after the winter, and another in early summer, both representing a quarter of the samurai's total income (just for a fluffy system that reflects the influx of wealth from tax season, not necessarily the system you should use for simplicity's sake). That said, it makes more sense as based on status rank imo, than status. 15, and 24, koku are a substantial fortune still, and way more than a samurai needs to provide for themselves, including some nice clothes, and still pick up some rather expensive and/or rare odds and ends.

Traditionally the idea of a monthly or semi-annual payments is really rare. The matter of the fact is that if your society is agricultural you have really little choice but to settle accounts yearly. Merchants tend to be the exception because they use hard money and tend to be involved in low trust/high risk transactions, but even they often work on a system of credit.

For a historical example, for Edo period samurai, without lands of their own, what wouild happen is that they would receive, yearly, payment slips from their lords that they could then redeem as needed at the local rice brokers (that were often also moneychangers) in either rice or coin as they would deem fit.

3 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Traditionally the idea of a monthly or semi-annual payments is really rare. The matter of the fact is that if your society is agricultural you have really little choice but to settle accounts yearly. Merchants tend to be the exception because they use hard money and tend to be involved in low trust/high risk transactions, but even they often work on a system of credit.

For a historical example, for Edo period samurai, without lands of their own, what wouild happen is that they would receive, yearly, payment slips from their lords that they could then redeem as needed at the local rice brokers (that were often also moneychangers) in either rice or coin as they would deem fit.

Sure, and I have no problem with a single payment in Rokugan. Timed stipends just seems to fit better to me, when as presented the stipend is in coinage, not IOUs, or goods, or alternatives, but that's just to taste (giving out large sums of money at once is something people concerned with money, like us, are a bit more likely to be timid about admittedly: samurai are somewhat less likely to be buying things every day, or be good robbery targets).

On 12/18/2018 at 12:35 AM, Isawa Miyu said:

Sure, and I have no problem with a single payment in Rokugan. Timed stipends just seems to fit better to me, when as presented the stipend is in coinage, not IOUs, or goods, or alternatives, but that's just to taste (giving out large sums of money at once is something people concerned with money, like us, are a bit more likely to be timid about admittedly: samurai are somewhat less likely to be buying things every day, or be good robbery targets).

Technically, L5R's coins are issued based upon the rice taxation received... keeping them pegged to the value of Rice. They're nothing more than scrip. They're worth somewhat more than the specie value.

The historical Tenshō period Ryū was 4 koku worth, and was a 15 g (about 0.53 oz) rectangular plate of gold. That's twice the mass of the current US Dollar Coins, the Canadian Loony and Toony, and the €1 coin, and about the same as a UK £2 coin,.

7 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Technically, L5R's coins are issued based upon the rice taxation received... keeping them pegged to the value of Rice. They're nothing more than scrip. They're worth somewhat more than the specie value.

While 1 koku is supposed to equal enough rice to feed one person for a year (I believe that's 3 bushels or something similar, but I could be off by a factor of ten, it's a vague memory), I don't think it's quite accurate to say that L5R coinage is scrip: it's a currency backed by the value of rice, which is partly set by tradition (don't want that koku being worth six people's worth of rice, or one fifth of a person's), and partly by the actual rice received. Gold-backed currency was not considered scrip, and really this currency is the same (just backed by rice instead, though given the Imperial desire to keep its value steadier than the rice harvest necessarily is, I'm tempted to say it's actually fiat currency). It's not a non-governmental pseudo-currency provided in lieu of real wages, and exchangeable for the real money (koku IS the real money). Plus, we've got confirmation in EE that there are other goods that are taxed, and/or there are taxes paid in cash, because there are local taxes levied on traveling merchants, based on their goods, and with no mention that those merchants are handling rice at any point (unlike how villages will trade some other useful good for rice to pay their taxes, or even grow rice just to pay their taxes); interestingly, the merchant tax is described as something the clans levy directly, implying that they're getting the profit from it.

8 minutes ago, Isawa Miyu said:

While 1 koku is supposed to equal enough rice to feed one person for a year (I believe that's 3 bushels or something similar, but I could be off by a factor of ten, it's a vague memory), I don't think it's quite accurate to say that L5R coinage is scrip: it's a currency backed by the value of rice, which is partly set by tradition (don't want that koku being worth six people's worth of rice, or one fifth of a person's), and partly by the actual rice received. Gold-backed currency was not considered scrip, and really this currency is the same (just backed by rice instead, though given the Imperial desire to keep its value steadier than the rice harvest necessarily is, I'm tempted to say it's actually fiat currency). It's not a non-governmental pseudo-currency provided in lieu of real wages, and exchangeable for the real money (koku IS the real money). Plus, we've got confirmation in EE that there are other goods that are taxed, and/or there are taxes paid in cash, because there are local taxes levied on traveling merchants, based on their goods, and with no mention that those merchants are handling rice at any point (unlike how villages will trade some other useful good for rice to pay their taxes, or even grow rice just to pay their taxes); interestingly, the merchant tax is described as something the clans levy directly, implying that they're getting the profit from it.

Definitely more than scrip. Actual money backed by the minter. The only thing that's unusual from our point of view is that it's backed based on rice supplies (instead of gold) and that it's not a "federally" managed currency - it's not the Imperial Treasurer who is in charge of the koku for all of Rokugan, each clan takes care of its own.

As for the merchant tax, I'm fairly sure the imperial treasury gets funded almost entirely through taxes levied on the clans, only supplemented by local taxes on those who live and/or earn a living in the capital (and even those were collected by the steward clan while the capital wasn't under direct imperial control, like the Phoenix for the first decade of Toshi Ranbo as capital of the Emerald Empire) or other lands in imperial hands. The clans manage all taxes related to activities on their lands.

1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

As for the merchant tax, I'm fairly sure the imperial treasury gets funded almost entirely through taxes levied on the clans, only supplemented by local taxes on those who live and/or earn a living in the capital (and even those were collected by the steward clan while the capital wasn't under direct imperial control, like the Phoenix for the first decade of Toshi Ranbo as capital of the Emerald Empire) or other lands in imperial hands. The clans manage all taxes related to activities on their lands.

Definitely. My point was that since Imperial taxes are entirely based on the land (and the production that is supported by that land), secondary taxes on merchant goods wouldn't ever end up going up the food chain. At least that's how I'm reading the combination of details on how the tax system works.

9 minutes ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Definitely. My point was that since Imperial taxes are entirely based on the land (and the production that is supported by that land), secondary taxes on merchant goods wouldn't ever end up going up the food chain. At least that's how I'm reading the combination of details on how the tax system works.

I believe there is an Imperial tax on clan profits from commercial activities, but I could be wrong. It'd be a very sizeable source of income for the treasury, particularly with regards to the Crane, Unicorn and Scorpion (and quite possibly the Mantis). I wouldn't know how this would be determined given the hermetic notion of trade the samurai caste has, but otherwise a lot of the smuggling and off-the-books trading some of the clans not just condone but also organize and control seems pointless.

3 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

While 1 koku is supposed to equal enough rice to feed one person for a year (I believe that's 3 bushels or something similar, but I could be off by a factor of ten, it's a vague memory), I don't think it's quite accurate to say that L5R coinage is scrip: it's a currency backed by the value of rice, which is partly set by tradition (don't want that koku being worth six people's worth of rice, or one fifth of a person's), and partly by the actual rice received. Gold-backed currency was not considered scrip, and really this currency is the same (just backed by rice instead, though given the Imperial desire to keep its value steadier than the rice harvest necessarily is, I'm tempted to say it's actually fiat currency). It's not a non-governmental pseudo-currency provided in lieu of real wages, and exchangeable for the real money (koku IS the real money). Plus, we've got confirmation in EE that there are other goods that are taxed, and/or there are taxes paid in cash, because there are local taxes levied on traveling merchants, based on their goods, and with no mention that those merchants are handling rice at any point (unlike how villages will trade some other useful good for rice to pay their taxes, or even grow rice just to pay their taxes); interestingly, the merchant tax is described as something the clans levy directly, implying that they're getting the profit from it.

Coinage in medieval societies is usually valued upon the metal value — thus being "specie" — Feudal japan was almost unique in backing it with a commodity rather than simply using it as specie. (some pacific islanders used scrip of their own, as well, and equally as durable. Quipu in the South American traditions are essentially record books...)

• Scrip is a technical term meaning that it's (1) not issued by a central government, and (2) valued as a token, not as specie.
• Specie is coin valued for its precious metal content, and containing a face value in purity and mass. The markings are a promise of purity of the coinmetal, NOT in a backing of something else.
• Fiat means the unit has no backing thing of value, and is not itself valued at metal value.

Proper coinage is government issued, or at least government ordered..

L5R (3e and 5e both) specify 5 bu per koku, and that puts it right about 3 Tō, or 2.5 US bushels. Also, the Koku about 150 kg dry...

6 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Coinage in medieval societies is usually valued upon the metal value — thus being "specie" — Feudal japan was almost unique in backing it with a commodity rather than simply using it as specie. (some pacific islanders used scrip of their own, as well, and equally as durable. Quipu in the South American traditions are essentially record books...)

• Scrip is a technical term meaning that it's (1) not issued by a central government, and (2) valued as a token, not as specie.
• Specie is coin valued for its precious metal content, and containing a face value in purity and mass. The markings are a promise of purity of the coinmetal, NOT in a backing of something else.
• Fiat means the unit has no backing thing of value, and is not itself valued at metal value.

Proper coinage is government issued, or at least government ordered..

L5R (3e and 5e both) specify 5 bu per koku, and that puts it right about 3 Tō, or 2.5 US bushels. Also, the Koku about 150 kg dry...

L5R coinage is both government issued, and ordered (the clan daimyo are literal government representatives: being responsible for a large chunk of people, productivity of Imperial land, and collecting taxes on the behalf of the throne).

I understand what scrip and fiat currency are, thanks for the information on 'specie' though, never studied medieval coinage. I suppose the koku are scrip to the same degree modern money is, but I'd argue that it is essentially issued by a central government because that is who decides the qualities of koku, and the clans are agents of that government, not a separate entity (it's like having local mints to save on the hassle of transporting currency from a central point); not to mention that they mint coinage at the throne's command, equivalent to the goods that have been assessed by Imperial tax collectors.

My point behind the koku being pseudo-fiat currency (which since pseudo means 'not' implies a faint relationship that may resemble something, but isn't that something) is that since the relative value of the koku and rice is dictated by the throne, and clearly it is backed currency, it has an element reminiscent of fiat currency, because the value of the backing isn't completely set by fiat, but it is controlled (and thus inflation is controlled) to some extent, except in corners of the Empire undergoing massive upheaval where the governmental systems of the Empire itself are breaking down. In this same sense, Rokugani currency has elements of all three types you listed: it is valued as a token, despite being issued by a central institution, for its value representation re: rice (although we don't have such a clear interpretation of zeni or bu); it must have some metal value, as gold is clearly a valued metal in Rokugan, (ditto silver, and naturally less so copper), which is an attribute of specie currency; and I've already mentioned how Imperial meddling inevitably means the value of Rokugani coinage has a hint of fiat to it.

I’m coming late to this party but I have some thoughts to offer up.

(ZERO) L5R is about interesting conflicts between competing interests (ninjo vs Giri, one precept of Bushido vs another....etc). L5R adventures also frequently revolve around the difference between what is publicly said and done on the one hand, and what is actually thought and done privately. As a GM you should primarily chose challenges for your players that exploit the daylight between these competing poles and give players meaningful choices, complications & consequences for their actions. Often a good L5R problem does not have a one size fits all “right choice.” There are just choices that are right for different characters based on beliefs and interests.

(1a)On roads and trade...Rokugan has fewer true roads than many fantasy settings. On page 7 of the Core Rulebook it says, “To travel the Empire on its few roads, Samurai must obtain special papers and pay a tax toward their upkeep. Merchant Carts and horses are banned from the Imperial Highways altogether, forcing them to use special trade routes to carry their goods between cities.” Also on page 10 it says, “To maintain a veneer if civility, Samurai leave monetary affairs to non-Samurai, who in turn seek the patronage of a powerful Lord.”

(1b) So traveling a major road with Inns is a privelige. Not a big deal for a Samurai...getting papers to travel can usually be hand waived unless it’s a time sensitive challenge or your GM wants the PCs to go through it (perhaps because several PCs are Worldy Ronin and the GM thinks it’s appropriate for them to put some sweat into getting their traveling papers without angering officials they’ll meet again later). You won’t be meeting people on a major road who are not also similarly privileged. If you are on a lesser road there may or may not be inns. A lot of provinces are off the beaten path, and to visit one you basically travel overland or on trails.

(1c) The idea that your PCs are at an Inn on a Highway going to a power relative is perfectly normal and fine. They are enjoying a privilege as Samurai.

(2) I don’t have a perfect understanding of how Monks in he campaign. But I don’t think one would normally be assigned to someone as a bodyguard/Yojimbo and fight duels on their behalf. Their official role would be probably be something else (ie a spiritual advisor as many have suggested). That said there is no reason why an Abbott somewhere doesn’t tell a young monk, “You will travel *somewhere* with *somebody* and, for the good of the order, you will absolutely make sure they get there alive even at the expense of your own life.” Maybe the Abbott explains why to the monk. Maybe not. Maybe *somebody* knows the monk is *REALLY* there to protect them. Maybe not. I would note that page 258 lists different types of duels and IMO the “Warrior’s Duel” exists in part so Shugenja or Monks can face off in honorable combat against someone who uses swords. A “samurai monk” could easily issue a challenge to someone and fight a duel.

(3) There has been a lot of ink spent in this thread on how cash is, or is not, used in the game by samurai. I would note that my ZERO point applies to issues of commerce as well as any other aspect of he game. Cash and resources should be an issue when they lead to interesting choices and conflicts. Most of the time “the action” is at the place you are going. Not the place you are going through. Routine actions should just be dealt with in background. Inns on an Imperial road (IMO) in normal circumstances should absolutely take “samurai credit.” But if that idea offends you, it really doesn’t make a difference if the Samurai spends coins in the background. On the other hand, if the adventure is to get somewhere in a hurry, or to deal with shortages of goods (not enough to go around, so only the highest status or cleverest people get the stuff that they are socially expected to get) then commerce can become *very* interesting. Even if a samurai is supposed to hate it. Probably your also already samurai hates either the intrigues of court or the hardships of the battlefield (or both!) ... so “hating something” is no good reason not to have to deal with it!

FYI it is my opinion that keeping the “ambitious captains” and the “people with disposable cash” separate is an EXCELLENT strategy for the ruling “Kings” to keep ruling. Military Excellence + disposable cash = people getting “bright ideas” about how much better things would be if they were in charge. Rome has similar strictures about Patricians not being involved in mercantile ventures...for very similar reasons. In Rome (like Rokugan) there were ways around these strictures of varying levels of social acceptance. A system like this is set up this way not to maximize revenue, but to maximize the perceived security for the powers that be from internal threats.

(4) Feudal society vs Modern Nation Sate society. OK. In the real world I live in Oregon in the USA. I live under and am responsible for obeying those laws. When I travel somewhere, the laws are organized by sovereignty. So I fly to Japan (a sovereign state) to do research for my next L5R game (I wish!) ... I have to use my passport and maybe get a tourist visa. As soon as I enter Japan through Customs, I am no longer operating under Oregon and US law. I’m under Japanese law. Feudal Law is different. It’s organized by class.

(4a) I am a samurai. I operate under the laws that apply to Samurai. That’s true in Scorpion Clan Lands and Crane Clans alike. A peasant (I guess tired of living) comes up to me on my travels and shouts at me, “Your clan sucks, you are a filthy mongrel dog, and I poop on your ancestors memory!” I stand stunned for a moment because that’s not supposd to happen. Then I execute the peasant on the spot. In Rokugan it DOES NOT matter whose lands I’m on. The Samurai (feudal law) is based on my status and not on my location. If I am of the Scorpion Clan on Lion territory it’s not unlikely that it’s the Lion Samurai in charge of that guy who is potentially in trouble. He or she is at risk of loosing honor because they have failed to provide to courtesy to a samurai on their lands, they failed in their duties as the lord of the area to “properly educate” the people under them, and their underlings (even peasants) reflect on them.

(4b) I am Scorpion Clan samurai traveling on normal business through Lion lands and I kill a peasant. I say they offered insult, but really in my mind and my heart I did just because I was feeling evil in the moment. A Lion samurai sees everything and tries to call me on it! If we settle it through the magistrates we both give statements. Probably I get off, because a Samurai has life and death power over a peasant and I say they gave insult. But it’s also true that the highest status individual is believed and Lion certainly wins “ties” on Lion Lands. A Lion who seeks punishment for me probably doesn’t argue that I didn’t have the right to kill the peasant but that I violated Courtesy to him by killing his underling (without cause) OR I have acted without honor by not being truthful OR some other violation of Bushido or harm inflicted on him. More likely we can fight a duel. If the Lion bases his grievance that I killed a peasant then he or she might loose honor. Again the grievance is that I have done the Lion harm or violated Bushido.

(4c) I am a Scorpion on Crane lands in a minor castle and after receiving an insult like in 4a I kill a heiman class person - but rather than a random peasant who is essentially interchangeable with other peasants, this death directly inconviences a samurai lord. Perhaps they were a skilled carpenter working on their keep and their death stops work on renovating a shrine. The samurai lord can’t directly touch me, I absolutely had the LEGAL right to kill that guy. But if he or she is ticked off that that shrine isn’t getting finished (or he had to call in a favor of some stripe to borrow this guy to do work and he now can’t return him) then he can try to indirectly make my life living **** while I’m staying on his lands. If he happens to have a Kakita Duelist also staying there, then he might get his buddy to try to force me into a situation where I have to fight him in a duel or loose honor. If I stay there long enough probably I’m going to end up screwed in some capacity. Also there is probably an interesting story there somewhere because the carpenter should know better! Why was that choice made? Maybe I did (insert something really bad) to his family, and even though he knows he’s going to die, he also knows the local lord is going to take a pound of flesh for me and this is his only chance for revenge.

While I would agree with you to a certain extent, Omega, it is only to a particular extent.

First, Clan barrier means something-- so if one kicked in the door and demanded tribute from a peasant in a territory outside of what your own clan claimed, while the peasant personally may be too interested in self-preservation to resist, this would be generally seen as reaching into another person's wallet and spending their money.

Furthermore, the very fact that there is any sort of currency system at all indicates that it is not impossible, or even frowned upon, for a samurai to offer a peasant compensation for some portion of whatever part of the crop is considered the peasant's person property.

Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the average samurai needs to have any sort of explicit documentation to turn over to any person they wish to do a transaction with. Just as likely, if not more so, is that an individual uses their own coin for transactions and is later compensated for any expenses as part of their duties.

11 hours ago, Void Crane said:

I’m coming late to this party but I have some thoughts to offer up.

(ZERO) L5R is about interesting conflicts between competing interests (ninjo vs Giri, one precept of Bushido vs another....etc). L5R adventures also frequently revolve around the difference between what is publicly said and done on the one hand, and what is actually thought and done privately. As a GM you should primarily chose challenges for your players that exploit the daylight between these competing poles and give players meaningful choices, complications & consequences for their actions. Often a good L5R problem does not have a one size fits all “right choice.” There are just choices that are right for different characters based on beliefs and interests.

(1b) So traveling a major road with Inns is a privelige. Not a big deal for a Samurai...getting papers to travel can usually be hand waived unless it’s a time sensitive challenge or your GM wants the PCs to go through it (perhaps because several PCs are Worldy Ronin and the GM thinks it’s appropriate for them to put some sweat into getting their traveling papers without angering officials they’ll meet again later). You won’t be meeting people on a major road who are not also similarly privileged. If you are on a lesser road there may or may not be inns. A lot of provinces are off the beaten path, and to visit one you basically travel overland or on trails.

(3) There has been a lot of ink spent in this thread on how cash is, or is not, used in the game by samurai. I would note that my ZERO point applies to issues of commerce as well as any other aspect of he game. Cash and resources should be an issue when they lead to interesting choices and conflicts. Most of the time “the action” is at the place you are going. Not the place you are going through. Routine actions should just be dealt with in background. Inns on an Imperial road (IMO) in normal circumstances should absolutely take “samurai credit.” But if that idea offends you, it really doesn’t make a difference if the Samurai spends coins in the background. On the other hand, if the adventure is to get somewhere in a hurry, or to deal with shortages of goods (not enough to go around, so only the highest status or cleverest people get the stuff that they are socially expected to get) then commerce can become *very* interesting. Even if a samurai is supposed to hate it. Probably your also already samurai hates either the intrigues of court or the hardships of the battlefield (or both!) ... so “hating something” is no good reason not to have to deal with it!

(4a) I am a samurai. I operate under the laws that apply to Samurai. That’s true in Scorpion Clan Lands and Crane Clans alike. A peasant (I guess tired of living) comes up to me on my travels and shouts at me, “Your clan sucks, you are a filthy mongrel dog, and I poop on your ancestors memory!” I stand stunned for a moment because that’s not supposd to happen. Then I execute the peasant on the spot. In Rokugan it DOES NOT matter whose lands I’m on. The Samurai (feudal law) is based on my status and not on my location. If I am of the Scorpion Clan on Lion territory it’s not unlikely that it’s the Lion Samurai in charge of that guy who is potentially in trouble. He or she is at risk of loosing honor because they have failed to provide to courtesy to a samurai on their lands, they failed in their duties as the lord of the area to “properly educate” the people under them, and their underlings (even peasants) reflect on them.

(4b) I am Scorpion Clan samurai traveling on normal business through Lion lands and I kill a peasant. I say they offered insult, but really in my mind and my heart I did just because I was feeling evil in the moment. A Lion samurai sees everything and tries to call me on it! If we settle it through the magistrates we both give statements. Probably I get off, because a Samurai has life and death power over a peasant and I say they gave insult. But it’s also true that the highest status individual is believed and Lion certainly wins “ties” on Lion Lands. A Lion who seeks punishment for me probably doesn’t argue that I didn’t have the right to kill the peasant but that I violated Courtesy to him by killing his underling (without cause) OR I have acted without honor by not being truthful OR some other violation of Bushido or harm inflicted on him. More likely we can fight a duel. If the Lion bases his grievance that I killed a peasant then he or she might loose honor. Again the grievance is that I have done the Lion harm or violated Bushido.

(4c) I am a Scorpion on Crane lands in a minor castle and after receiving an insult like in 4a I kill a heiman class person - but rather than a random peasant who is essentially interchangeable with other peasants, this death directly inconviences a samurai lord. Perhaps they were a skilled carpenter working on their keep and their death stops work on renovating a shrine. The samurai lord can’t directly touch me, I absolutely had the LEGAL right to kill that guy. But if he or she is ticked off that that shrine isn’t getting finished (or he had to call in a favor of some stripe to borrow this guy to do work and he now can’t return him) then he can try to indirectly make my life living **** while I’m staying on his lands. If he happens to have a Kakita Duelist also staying there, then he might get his buddy to try to force me into a situation where I have to fight him in a duel or loose honor. If I stay there long enough probably I’m going to end up screwed in some capacity. Also there is probably an interesting story there somewhere because the carpenter should know better! Why was that choice made? Maybe I did (insert something really bad) to his family, and even though he knows he’s going to die, he also knows the local lord is going to take a pound of flesh for me and this is his only chance for revenge.

Nice analysis. I deleted everything I mostly agree with, to focus on what I'd argue out. I'll start at the end. 4 is addressed by Emerald Empire. You are certainly committing a minor offense if you kill a peasant. If that peasant committed a serious or grave offense, which would likely result in a death sentence, then you're probably fine (as in 4a), but if you acted according to 4b and 4c, you'd be punished, probably with a fine and apology, at minimum. Another section of EE points out that peasants ARE considered people, so there is some innate crime in murdering one, and the harm to the peasant's lord is in addition to this. In 4b I'd also point out that if your clans are at war, even if you're some neutral representative, you'd probably be considered a combatant by killing the peasant, and be imprisoned until the war is over as a result. 4c is basically right as to the lord's response (making your life harder), but with the addition from my argument above that you'd also receive some minimal punishment for the murder: especially since if it was a clear insult from the peasant, the lord should have been given the right to punish him, instead of you resorting to deadly violence.

(ZERO): I like this, makes sense, seems like the basic idea behind conflict in general. Just thought I'd mention it.

1b: All correct, with the addition that traveling papers being subverted by people in conflict with you, or trying to get a favour from you, is a nice little plot hook.

3: As to cash, I've been discussing how it's valued/treated, and paid out, but not really how it's spent. Spending wise, peasants have no recourse: what samurai ask for, they should receive, anywhere: the exception is ronin, who will likely only be able to get exotic or rare things due to threats or fear, as they are likely owed to the peasant's lord. If your characters choose to leave behind a 'gift', to pay for the services and goods, that's good manners, but any village, or inn, or teahouse, will have a ledger somewhere where they record when/what samurai use, and present it for tax purposes. One thing that bugs me is that Dark Tides (the GM kit adventure) specifically says to make the value of gaijin/illicit goods outside the purchasing power of the PCs, but of course, koku are worth a LOT, and samurai don't barter or haggle, so they'd normally take what they want, and 'gift' what they think it is valued at (perhaps with a hint from the merchant, though not if the samurai in question is likely to take offense). So in effect, unless FFG expects samurai to both handle money more like a common person (or modern person), and ask about value (a really big no-no), their whole 'the goods are too expensive' thing does not make sense.

20 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the average samurai needs to have any sort of explicit documentation to turn over to any person they wish to do a transaction with. Just as likely, if not more so, is that an individual uses their own coin for transactions and is later compensated for any expenses as part of their duties.

I agree, except I think it's more likely a lord will provide his retainers with cash for expenses he can expect to incur while performing his duties rather than compensate them afterwards. Money after the fact feels like accounting, while money up front is more like handwaiving the whole must-trade-for-food-and-shelter thing and pretending it's just pocket money for whatever.

Skimming though somebody else's copy of EE (still waiting on that pdf to get myself) some of our question is actually resolved there. The head of a village is expected to keep a guest room, and any samurai who visits there is hosted by them. If they are of the same Clan as that village, the taxes are just written off - though too deep a dip may have the lord of the village ask the samurai's lord for compensation. Another great Clan however is basically a loss (reimbursement is declared "unlikely"), and excessive losses fall on the village leader, not the samurai. This section also describes most villages are remarkably inhospitable to most samurai though, so they should not desire to stay long - and as a matter of personal observation, overstaying your welcome is likely to lead to stressed peasants, and you may have an accident on the road, or are reported to the Clan Magistrates and retroactively resist arrest (after a farm implement is stuck in your back, for being a prick). Or maybe the Clan Magistrates will arrive for the taxes and chase you across the land when they find out your misdeeds, while the Italian soundtrack blares. Reading further, a village on a major thoroughfare might have an inn for travellers, but still notes the guest house of the village head - so one assumes a samurai visitor may not stay at such places, or only does so as a matter of overflow.

If you travel to any decently sized town where a samurai actually lives, he or she is supposed to offer you a sacred hospitality, even if you are bitter enemies.