Hey Guys,

I've been playing a LOT of KeyForge lately. Like easily 10 games a day (between Crucible online and in person at shops).

There are some decks that have unlimited draw potential combos. There is absolutely no way to beat these decks 99.9% of the time (yes you can slow them down with bait and switch and intermediate graft ect) but when they gain 20+ aember a turn and draw their whole deck, what the heck do you do?

Kinda is frustrating me about the game, and am hoping those chains/card restrictions come out soon.

Anybody run into these kinda decks?

I've only faced one, but, I was using a deck with 3 copies of Control the Weak and enough Logos draw to allow me to string together 4 turns on a row where I prevented him from calling Logos and going off.

All in combo decks tend to fold to heavy control.

I dont know if 'all in' really describes an unlimited draw deck. Its based off a couple cards (in which some you can have multiple of) that then let him hand your own deck.

How does an unlimited draw combo work? What specific cards are we talking about? I have yet to see anything like that happen.

20 minutes ago, ProfessorAZ said:

I dont know if 'all in' really describes an unlimited draw deck. Its based off a couple cards (in which some you can have multiple of) that then let him hand your own deck.

Fair enough. Where I make the distinction is if the deck has any way to forge keys outside of the forge step.

Those are the decks I worry about because there is truely nothing you can do to stop them one they are set up to combo off, but, they don't need to be focused on combo specifically.

If the infinite draw into all your cards is all you're doing withou a way to close out the game before your amber and subsequent forging a can be interrupted then I don't worry about those decks as much.

Yes it is a difficult deck to beat, but there are plenty of decks that can put similar aember pressure on you without having to go infinite draw.

In the one game I played it was pretty easy for me to look at my opponent's decklist, see that it had serious draw potential (I wasn't sure if he could go infinite, but it looked possible) so I muliganed into a copy of Control the Weak, waited for him to do a bit of hand crafting to work towards setting up that big logos turn and when I was fairly certain he had a grip of Logos cards in his hand I forced him to call something else, cycled through my deck, essentially shutting him out for 4 turns. By the time he got to play his combo, I had forged two keys and was on my way to the third.

Since he had no way to forge multiple keys in a turn and no way to stop me from forging my 3rd key before him, he conceded once I got a check following his first forged key with him sitting on a pile of aember for his last two keys.

Even when a deck can go off, it has to have a way to close things out.

1 hour ago, KrisWall said:

How does an unlimited draw combo work? What specific cards are we talking about? I have yet to see anything like that happen.

Here's a post off another forum I found -

There's a way to forge 3 keys in 1 turn and instantly win the game. Here's how it works. And here's a sample deck that pulls it off quite consistently: https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/834a5145-17f4-46a5-9044-55a196ecfd0a

Pieces of the Combo

Library Access : Each time you play another card, draw a card. (Library Access can stack. If you play 2x Library Access, you draw 2 cards each time you play a card). Nepenthe Seed [Omni Artifact]: Return a card from your discard to your hand.

Phase Shift : You may play a non-logos card.

Key Charge[Untamed] : Lose 1 amber. You may immediately forge a key at current cost.

(optional): Timetraveller[Logos creature]: Play: draw 2 cards

(optional): HelpFromFutureSelf[Logos action] : Return a timetraveller from your deck/discard into your hand.

Pulling off the Combo

1. Put Nepenthe Seed down. Pass your turn. (this is optional. If you have HelpFromFutureSelf + Library Access + ~3 more logos. don't need Nepenthe Seed).

2. When you have ~ 3 other logos cards in addition to Library Access, play Library Access

3. Use Nepenthe Seed to fetch Library Access

4. Play Library Access again (draw 1 card from LA#1). Now, each time you play a card, draw 2 cards.

5. Play your 3 other logos cards to draw 6 cards. If you played Timetraveller, draw even more cards. And if you played Phase Shift, play a card of a different house and draw 2 cards for that too.

6. Keep playing logos cards and draw your whole deck into your hand.

7. Many logos action cards like Foggify have amber on them. Keep playing these action cards to gain amber. You draw so fast your discard always has only 1 card, and you get your cards back immediately. Repeat until you get to 21 amber. The rule of 6 only stops you from playing the same card more than 6 times. But you can gain amber from different cards.

8. Play Phase Shift, then Key Charge. Repeat 3 times.

9. You have won the game.

Feels like an easy stop to this combo is to change phase shift to only allow one card to be played regardless of how many copies of phase shifts get's played.

There's another thread on this as well:

It seems like with the current set, these combo decks should be expected to win most big events unless/until they get chained into oblivion. It's not impossible to beat them (as @Ishi Tonu described), but they're at a huge advantage. I think it would make for a pretty boring / unfun meta, where the only decks that can really compete in big events are all using the same infinite-draw combo or are specifically targeted at controlling that combo.

The only fix that seems reasonable to me is to change how the Rule of Six works so that it also applies to repeating the effects of cards. Library Access would then let you draw at most six extra cards during your turn, which is strong but no longer game-breaking. Then we could get back to (hopefully) having a huge variety of competitive decks rather than everything being focused around a single combo.

15 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Fair enough. Where I make the distinction is if the deck has any way to forge keys outside of the forge step.

Those are the decks I worry about because there is truely nothing you can do to stop them one they are set up to combo off, but, they don't need to be focused on combo specifically.

If the infinite draw into all your cards is all you're doing withou a way to close out the game before your amber and subsequent forging a can be interrupted then I don't worry about those decks as much.

Yes it is a difficult deck to beat, but there are plenty of decks that can put similar aember pressure on you without having to go infinite draw.

In the one game I played it was pretty easy for me to look at my opponent's decklist, see that it had serious draw potential (I wasn't sure if he could go infinite, but it looked possible) so I muliganed into a copy of Control the Weak, waited for him to do a bit of hand crafting to work towards setting up that big logos turn and when I was fairly certain he had a grip of Logos cards in his hand I forced him to call something else, cycled through my deck, essentially shutting him out for 4 turns. By the time he got to play his combo, I had forged two keys and was on my way to the third.

Since he had no way to forge multiple keys in a turn and no way to stop me from forging my 3rd key before him, he conceded once I got a check following his first forged key with him sitting on a pile of aember for his last two keys.

Even when a deck can go off, it has to have a way to close things out.

People waiting for an entire grip of Logos are playing to lose. .

I agree with your last point about Key gens. I'm all about the Key gens. Fortunately, Phase Shift turns any Key gen into a Logos Key gen. I also agree that a deck has to have a way to close things out, and with 36 cards in hand, I'm sure I can come up with something.

Decks that draw big aren't even necessarily about doing it. Almost every card in the house is a threat, often by keeping you reacting or setting things up and keeping them safe. It's often an understated house that doesn't overwhelm you all at one time, until it does.

If Logos is a support house, it's the support house that wins games. Personally, I thinkj every other house is just support for Logos. If a draw deck goes off, you have every card in your deck at your disposal. That's a win con in my book. If I'm playing against Control the Weak, I drop Scrambler Storm ahead of it. Control the Weak is dead, long live Control the Weak.

Logos is like Amazon; Even if you don't always use it, it's still worth having. it has everything you want at a discount. It might take a little longer to get there, but it's more convenient and the shipping's free. And, they've likely shut down most of the competition anyway. With all the savings you'll finally able to take that trip to the coast you've dreamt about.

The hands that go off don't require anything like a full grip. Library Access + Revive or Nepenthe Seed or Time Traveller, with the help of every other Logos card in your deck leads to major card advantage. If you do go off, your opponent will again be stuck next turn when you play Scrambler Storm again. So much for forging a key out of phase. Nearly every card is a threat in Logos, at nearly any time, no matter where it is. I like to keep most of my valuables in my archive, unless my opponent has Dysania.

Yeah, it's a Logos card.

1 hour ago, jocke01 said:

Feels like an easy stop to this combo is to change phase shift to only allow one card to be played regardless of how many copies of phase shifts get's played.

People get held up on out of house key forging abilities, but trust me one they draw their deck and cycle 6 times thought all their logos cards that give them amber. They will have all the amber they need a bunch of creatures and the cards in hand to do whatever they want.

Phase shift is not a problem is that double library access picking up the entire deck. Personally the rule of six could have been called upon to keep it from triggering more than 6 times, but FFG ruled the wrong way on that. (and biomatrix backup)

@debiant

I'd disagree on the terminology or classification of what is considered a "threat" or "support", but, I get the point you're making.

I was calling Logos the "best house" months before the release date and for the most part, I still feel that way. I've come to enjoy most of the other houses way more than I thought I would, but, when I'm looking to be competitive, I tend to gravitate towards Logos decks that have just enough draw/archiving to facilitate the stronger parts of the rest of my deck. On the extreme end of Logos, you have the capacity to draw your entire deck, but, I rarely see a deck like this, and the ones that I do see are not without flaws. Not to mention that as soon as a deck like that shows any sort of positive results, it's going to get chained into the ground...........and a deck that only works by drawing cards will crumble when it cannot draw cards.

I just don't think that "draw my deck" strategies are always going to walk away with a win, simply because the have the capacity to draw the entire deck. They are a bully deck. Once you stand up to them, they really aren't that scary. The decks that worry me the most are the ones that are well rounded but have the means to forge multiple keys in a turn............when it matters.

Make no mistake "I have all my cards in hand and enough aember to forge a key three turns in a row" is a scary game state to be sitting across from. However, if that deck can't accelerate the rate at which they forge keys, it leaves an opportunity to lose, not to mention their being ways to prevent that sort of deck to get going in the first place.

Losing to deck like that would certainly be considered an NPE in my opinion, but, it's not really something I worry about.

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

@debiant

I'd disagree on the terminology or classification of what is considered a "threat" or "support", but, I get the point you're making.

I was calling Logos the "best house" months before the release date and for the most part, I still feel that way. I've come to enjoy most of the other houses way more than I thought I would, but, when I'm looking to be competitive, I tend to gravitate towards Logos decks that have just enough draw/archiving to facilitate the stronger parts of the rest of my deck. On the extreme end of Logos, you have the capacity to draw your entire deck, but, I rarely see a deck like this, and the ones that I do see are not without flaws. Not to mention that as soon as a deck like that shows any sort of positive results, it's going to get chained into the ground...........and a deck that only works by drawing cards will crumble when it cannot draw cards.

I just don't think that "draw my deck" strategies are always going to walk away with a win, simply because the have the capacity to draw the entire deck. They are a bully deck. Once you stand up to them, they really aren't that scary. The decks that worry me the most are the ones that are well rounded but have the means to forge multiple keys in a turn............when it matters.

Make no mistake "I have all my cards in hand and enough aember to forge a key three turns in a row" is a scary game state to be sitting across from. However, if that deck can't accelerate the rate at which they forge keys, it leaves an opportunity to lose, not to mention their being ways to prevent that sort of deck to get going in the first place.

Losing to deck like that would certainly be considered an NPE in my opinion, but, it's not really something I worry about.

Problem is - you need to draw well to beat it. Giving that deck yet another chance to win

34 minutes ago, ProfessorAZ said:

Problem is - you need to draw well to beat it. Giving that deck yet another chance to win

All decks want to draw well to have the highest potential at winning. If deck's whole win condition is "I draw my deck, now I can win in three turns, do you yield?" has to draw well.

The person who has the most dynamic ways to forge keys is going to win because that is the only win con, forging keys, not drawing cards. Granted card advantage tends to win games, but, just because someone can draw their whole deck doesn't mean they win on the spot.

Honestly, I wouldn't even want to own a deck that could do this. It's essentially wasted cardboard for casual play, and, once it sees competitive play it will get chained up pretty hard if it's ever successful.

Now the chains clearing at different event levels might allow some players to have a one time run with these types of decks and then they can try to sell them off to the suckers that thing they will still be good decks when they have 20+ chains on them. More power too you. I think the real value of these decks is their perceived strength and how much you might be able to sell them for on the secondary market.

"Too Much to Protect" seems tailor-made for such a deck. They get enough AEmber for X Keys? You get to forge X-1 Keys instead!

Speaking from experience, I played a game with the Starter decks last week, and I pulled off an amazing combo with Library Access, 2 Wild Wormholes, and other Logos draw sources. I amassed enough AEmber to win... three turns later. On my opponent's next two turns, he just exhausted his creatures to reap, played a few actions, and because he was ahead on me with Keys, he beat me. The "One Key a turn" rule really helps limit combo decks.

The worst "I draw my deck every ten turns" I had was against someone with two Effervescent Principles. But by the time I was getting EP-locked, I had already lost the game (not unlike a Burn deck playing against a Control deck in M:TG, and failing to kill the Control deck by turn 30).

14 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

@debiant

I'd disagree on the terminology or classification of what is considered a "threat" or "support", but, I get the point you're making.

I was calling Logos the "best house" months before the release date and for the most part, I still feel that way. I've come to enjoy most of the other houses way more than I thought I would, but, when I'm looking to be competitive, I tend to gravitate towards Logos decks that have just enough draw/archiving to facilitate the stronger parts of the rest of my deck. On the extreme end of Logos, you have the capacity to draw your entire deck, but, I rarely see a deck like this, and the ones that I do see are not without flaws. Not to mention that as soon as a deck like that shows any sort of positive results, it's going to get chained into the ground...........and a deck that only works by drawing cards will crumble when it cannot draw cards.

I just don't think that "draw my deck" strategies are always going to walk away with a win, simply because the have the capacity to draw the entire deck. They are a bully deck. Once you stand up to them, they really aren't that scary. The decks that worry me the most are the ones that are well rounded but have the means to forge multiple keys in a turn............when it matters.

Make no mistake "I have all my cards in hand and enough aember to forge a key three turns in a row" is a scary game state to be sitting across from. However, if that deck can't accelerate the rate at which they forge keys, it leaves an opportunity to lose, not to mention their being ways to prevent that sort of deck to get going in the first place.

Losing to deck like that would certainly be considered an NPE in my opinion, but, it's not really something I worry about.

I completely agree with your assessment here. My eval was coming straight from the heart, and I'm glad the hyperbole was obvious. I would have been here with you in August, but I really llost faith in FFG. FFG has left me with a bad taste—like cat **** in my mouth bad—more than once with recycled gameplay, dropping titles from their line out of nowhere, and a willful ignorance when it comes to templating cards. Most people are cautiously optimistic; I was excitedly pessimistic. But I found myself at the pre-release, played in the event, and got my Logos pin on the first day. They're definitely home team.

There are always holes, learning how to take advantage of them is the biggest part of any game, Now, that this is all over the place, logos is overpowered. Shadows somehow found itself near the bottom of the heap when people started learning how to play against it.

You're spot on, Logos isn't invulnerable. There are always going to be decks you need to look at countering, and this just happens to be the biggest bully in the yard right now. I still think it's funny that one of the two biggest threats to Logos is Logos (Dis being the other).

For anyone searching for counter strategies, here are a few thoughts:

If the player has Library Access and Revive on their first turn, going second, there is only one shot to prevent them from going off. The same is true with Nepenthe Seed and Library Access if they first. Roughly 1 in 10 games—averaged over going first and second if they Mulligan—they will draw the two set pieces. You should mulligan aggressively. The Nepenthe Seed or the Witch of the Eye variant is easier to counter as there are plenty of cards that allow you to destroy creatures and artifacts. Witch of the Eye is also more difficult to pull of because you need a phase shift. The Revive strategy is harder to stop, but can still be delayed, and generally is less of an immediate threat once there are some cards in the discard.

It's always good to have at least one or two cards that lets you look at an opponent's hand. There are only a few cards that allow you to do so. You can still get by if you don't, but all the intuition in the world doesn't stack up to complete information. There are a good number of cards in and out of Dis that will delay your opponent from going off, and you can keep doing that if you have enough of them. But it's still more prone to being caught out.

All cards that allow you to discard actions and artifacts from an opponents hand are random selection. This keeps you on the luck train, even if you know exactly what they have in hand. There's the ability to reduce card draw, which is great if they're still missing a piece. The discard from deck strategy is also prone to luck bugs.

But once you do, you can eliminate the threat. That's why you choose Dis over other houses. To **** with love, purge will keep you alive. If you don't, you just deal with the fact that they still have a really good chance of drawing back into it, especially alongside Untamed where a lucky Witch of the Eye might catch you. You want to get those cards into the discard so you can get them out of the game.

Logos is still the strongest house in the game. Dis isn't going to win you as many, but they'll keep you from losing plenty. The house provides the counterplay to jab at your opponent so when they do fall, they can't beat the eight count.

If anyone's looking for guarantees, they should've bought a mattress, or a Ninja blender, or a knife set from an infomercial.