1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

They allow something specifically because that is not what is being banned.

... according to a completely different game.

The simple test IMO is "are these things recognisable to your opponent?" I think if your opponent has to ask, go to plan "B".

I think for the most part it also depends on how many token replacements you use too. If this is the only one I don't recognise then I may be more forgiving than 4-5 different objects being proxies for a whole mess of tokens.

As for the spinner, dice or not, it fails the ease of modification by accident clause.

14 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

... according to a completely different game.

No no, this one.

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

No no, this one.

The Keyforge tournament rules mention spindowns, and how they're not dice, and are therefore ok? No. The Magic tournament rules mention that spindowns aren't dice * , and therefore can't be used as dice. Different game, different rules, and backwards reasoning.

* Except hang on, what's this?

Quote

Status information is information that must be announced upon change and physically tracked by the affected player. Methods for tracking must be visible to both players during the match. A shared method is acceptable as long as all players in the match have access to it. At Competitive and Professional REL, methods that can easily be accidentally changed (such as dice) may not be used.

This is the only use of the word "dice" in the MTG tournament regs, and there is absolutely zero reference to "spindown" or even "spin" anywhere in them.

https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_5oct18_en.pdf

1 minute ago, twinstarbmc said:

The Keyforge tournament rules mention spindowns, and how they're not dice, and are therefore ok? No. The Magic tournament rules mention that spindowns aren't dice * , and therefore can't be used as dice. Different game, different rules, and backwards reasoning.

* Except hang on, what's this?

This is the only use of the word "dice" in the MTG tournament regs, and there is absolutely zero reference to "spindown" or even "spin" anywhere in them.

https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_5oct18_en.pdf

No, the FFG rules preclude the use of dice. Spin-down counters are not dice. Hence, the rules for this game specifically allows them. At this time, at least. Pretty sure that’s exactly what I said two posts ago.

8 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

No  , the FFG rules preclude the  use of dice.    

True.

8 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Spin  -down counters are not  dice.   

Debatable. Highly debatable. In fact, I beg to differ. Heck, there are specific "legal" spindowns, where opposing sides add to 21, which would fit both the qualifications of a "spindown" and a "die."

8 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Hence   , the rules for this game specifically allows them. 

Until the Keyforge tournamnet rules say in them somewhere that spindown counters are allowable, then no, they very much do not specifically allow them. At best, they do not specifically disallow them . That is, until a different reasonable human being takes a look at it and says, "Hmmmmm.... nah, that's a die," at which point you no longer have a leg to stand on.

28 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

The Keyforge tournament rules mention spindowns, and how they're not dice, and are therefore ok? No. The Magic tournament rules mention that spindowns aren't dice * , and therefore can't be used as dice. Different game, different rules, and backwards reasoning.

* Except hang on, what's this?

Status information is information that must be announced upon change and physically tracked by the affected player. Methods for tracking must be visible to both players during the match. A shared method is acceptable as long as all players in the match have access to it. At Competitive and Professional REL, methods that can easily be accidentally changed (such as dice) may not be used.

This is the only use of the word "dice" in the MTG tournament regs, and there is absolutely zero reference to "spindown" or even "spin" anywhere in them.

https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_5oct18_en.pdf

1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

To make yet another comparison to [that other game], at higher level events both players are supposed to use pen and paper to track each other's life totals, because that's the best and most certain way to avoid manipulation - accidental or otherwise.

He even admits that in Magic you aren't allowed to use "spindown counters" in high level tournaments for the exact same reason. Which is why I know he is just trolling.

I've never been to a Magic event where spin-down dice were officially permitted for the sake of rolling-off. I'm happy to hear from others who've had a different experience, though.

Likewise, I've never seen a spin-down, or d20, or d6, or pretty much any denomination of die or gaming aid that wasn't one of those oblong d10s, get knocked around so as to irrevocably misconstrue the board state. Again, happy to hear from others with differing experiences.

What I find problematic here is that we're attempting to justify the intention of a rule with hypothetical scenarios that are, in reality, far from likely. The intent is to prevent gaming aids from being "accidentally manipulated," sure, but to a degree that is seemingly immeasurable by any objective standard, and without any genuine contrast between one aid and the next. Any 3-dimensional object stands a risk of being knocked around, and speaking practically - and from experience - actual dice don't really pose that risk. The only time I have seen something like that happen is when a player forcibly slammed the table in frustration, but apparently I'm not allowed to bring those kinds of scenarios up.

I can't argue that actual dice are permitted by FFG, and I'm not arguing that they should be. But if your argument is "dice bounce around easy, other things do not," are you really arguing from experience, or just in the abstract?

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I've never been to a Magic event where spin-down dice were officially permitted for the sake of rolling-off. I'm happy to hear from others who've had a different experience, though.

Likewise, I've never seen a spin-down, or d20, or d6, or pretty much any denomination of die or gaming aid that wasn't one of those oblong d10s, get knocked around so as to irrevocably misconstrue the board state. Again, happy to hear from others with differing experiences.

What I find problematic here is that we're attempting to justify the intention of a rule with hypothetical scenarios that are, in reality, far from likely. The intent is to prevent gaming aids from being "accidentally manipulated," sure, but to a degree that is seemingly immeasurable by any objective standard, and without any genuine contrast between one aid and the next. Any 3-dimensional object stands a risk of being knocked around, and speaking practically - and from experience - actual dice don't really pose that risk. The only time I have seen something like that happen is when a player forcibly slammed the table in frustration, but apparently I'm not allowed to bring those kinds of scenarios up.

I can't argue that actual dice are permitted by FFG, and I'm not arguing that they should be. But if your argument is "dice bounce around easy, other things do not," are you really arguing from experience, or just in the abstract?

Then allow me to bear witness. I have seen dice get caught by a sleeve when moving an knocked off the table. When putting it back, there is no certain way to know what number it was on. I have also seen people shift their chair while playing D&D and bump the table causing dice to change facings.

In both of these cases if they were tokens there would be no question. That is why I specifically used these examples before.

4 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

He even admits that in Magic you aren't allowed to use "spindown counters" in high level tournaments for the exact same reason. Which is why I know he is just trolling.

Accidentally knocking a die around isn't even remotely the same as attempting to finesse it into a particular result during a roll-off.

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Accidentally knocking a die around isn't even remotely the same as attempting to finesse it into a particular result during a roll-off.

You asked if anyone had seen gaming aids be accidentally manipulated. I gave you first hand examples. And incidentally, I would accept the example of slamming a fist in frustration. In fact it is a great example. That would also change the facing of a die, but no effect tokens. I mentioned the flip the table thing earlier because someone (I thought it was you, but I was probably mistaken) used that as a defense. Not specifically flipping the table, but something to the effect of "I could sweep all your tokens off the table and then they couldn't tell the value just as much as a die"

A dice is perfectly acceptable if it has 2 sides. 🙂

35 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

You asked if anyone had seen gaming aids be accidentally manipulated. I gave you first hand examples. And incidentally, I would accept the example of slamming a fist in frustration. In fact it is a great example. That would also change the facing of a die, but no effect tokens. I mentioned the flip the table thing earlier because someone (I thought it was you, but I was probably mistaken) used that as a defense. Not specifically flipping the table, but something to the effect of "I could sweep all your tokens off the table and then they couldn't tell the value just as much as a die"

You misunderstand me, sir. You did answer the question I asked, and in earnest, so I appreciate that; this is a separate point.

I did not mean, nor infer, that spin-downs are barred from use at Magic events because they can be bumped. Rather, they are banned from being used as dice because of the way the numbers are arranged. The layout of a standard d20 makes finessing a roll into a particular result - or range of results - all but impossible. It’s a practical approximation of true randomness. A spin-down, on the other hand, has an axis (or axes) that make it significantly easier to roll into that particular range, possibly conferring an undue advantage in going first to whichever player is better at manipulating their rolls.

Suffice it to say, spin-downs are not designed nor intended to be used for determining random numbers, and the fact that people can sometimes be trusted to play nice does not mean that using them in unintended ways fundamentally changes their purpose. I have never argued that calling it something other than a die makes it so, but I have argued that there is practical and functional difference between the two.

31 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

You misunderstand me, sir. You did answer the question I asked, and in earnest, so I appreciate that; this is a separate point.

I did not mean, nor infer, that spin-downs are barred from use at Magic events because they can be bumped. Rather, they are banned from being used as dice because of the way the numbers are arranged. The layout of a standard d20 makes finessing a roll into a particular result - or range of results - all but impossible. It’s a practical approximation of true randomness. A spin-down, on the other hand, has an axis (or axes) that make it significantly easier to roll into that particular range, possibly conferring an undue advantage in going first to whichever player is better at manipulating their rolls.

Suffice it to say, spin-downs are not designed nor intended to be used for determining random numbers, and the fact that people can sometimes be trusted to play nice does not mean that using them in unintended ways fundamentally changes their purpose. I have never argued that calling it something other than a die makes it so, but I have argued that there is practical and functional difference between the two.

Also understand that this is written sincerely. I am not trying to insult, or condescend. While I do still think you are drawing this out for the laughs. I'll give you 1 extended explanation in which I sincerely try to explain why you should give up your spindowns should be legal crusade. After this, I am out.

I understand that 'spindown counters' can be manipulated in such a way as to impact the result. But handled in the traditional manner, they can also be used to generate a randomized result. Presuming they are not picked up and rolled in a specific manner, they will be random. That they can be purposely rolled in a manner which gives the roller an advantage is a great reason to not allow them in a competitive situation in which a fair and truly random result is desired.

That being said, that they have this feature/failing when used as random result generators does not make them any less of a die. The dice in X-wing have only 3 (or 4) symbols on an 8 sided die. despite them being weighted to certain probabilities, they are still dice. I would not allow someone to use the defense die to determine first player in that case, but that does not mean it is no longer a die. I have 6 sided dice which have values of only 0, 1, 2 from Betrayal at House on the Hill. They do not add up to the number of sides +1, but they are still dice. I have seen a naturally weighted 20 sided die. It had an absurdly high chance of landing on a 20. I would not allow that to be used to determine a first player because of that advantage. All of these things are still dice though.

You are also arguing a square/rectangle thing. Not all 20 sided dice are spindown counters. But all spindown counters are 20 sided dice. (I mean, I assume. I've not seem them except the pictures you have posted, do they come in other shapes?) WotC outlaws these specific ones for random roll decision for the reason you explained. Do they allow regular 20 sided dice to be used as life counters in tournaments in which spindown counters can be used? If not is their reason that a regular 20 sided is too unstable but a spindown counter is not? I sincerely doubt it.

Your argument that WotC bans spindown counters for random roll thus they are not dice in any capacity doesn't hold water. It just means that they recognize that they have an exploitable flaw. Bill Amend sells 20 siders that are all 20s https://store.foxtrot.com/collections/recently-added/products/jason-fox-lucky-d20 would you go to a magic tournament and argue that the rules ban spindown counters and that this is die, and therefore you should be allowed to use it to roll to determine first player. It says it is a 20 sided die right on the page you bought it from after all. Would you really expect to win that argument if you did?

FFG has a very clear statement as to what is disallowed. It does NOT say "dice, and dice specifically alone are banned." It says " However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification" Your spindown counter fits well within the terms of easily being accidentally modified. No argument of semantics, or ruling of other games can change that fact.

It doesn't matter that they are not called 'dice' by some people. They can be be accidentally modified.
It doesn't matter that their intended use is to be manually manipulated and not rolled. They can be be accidentally modified.
It doesn't matter in Magic and probably other games there are specific rules governing when they can and cannot be used. They can be be accidentally modified.

So where do we draw the line between things that can be accidentally modified and things that can’t? What metric of modifiability do we apply?

If intent doesn’t matter, can I object to my opponent using d2s? (thanks Amanal 😘 )

”You can’t use those damage tokens.”

”Why not? They came in the starter box.”

”I was told on a forum that any multi-faceted object with marked sides, that can be used to determine a random outcome amongst one or more possibly redundant numbers or unique symbols qualifies as a die. Sorry, bud.”

20 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

So where do we draw the line between things that can be accidentally modified and things that can’t? What metric of modifiability do we apply?

If intent doesn’t matter, can I object to my opponent using d2s? (thanks Amanal 😘 )

Intent DOES matter, and in this case the INTENT or RAI is that any polyhedral in which the number on the side matters is unusable for that number as polyhedrons are less stable then non-polyhedrons. A 2 sided die (or a coin, because that is what it is) is also unusable for everything EXCEPT the keys as they have only 2 sides: forged, and unforged and as such is hard to mistake which side it was on prior to any interference. All other "2 sided dice" must either have the same number on both sides and thus will not matter which side it is showing... this is referred to as a token or essentially have no number on it at all and just be used to denote a 1 token of blank and again not matter which side it is on. As long as a thing has more than 1 number on it and can denote more than 1 thing depending on the position it is in it is not usable by the Rules as Intended.

Whoa, you read a lot more into the tournament document than I did.

33 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

What metric of modifiability do we apply?

I would go by the rules: "resistant to accidental modification" I think the basic test you could apply is to see if chosen object is equal to or harder to change than a standard FFG token.

I use little "fishbowl decorations in yellow" for my amber, bump these as much as you like but there will never be any doubt about what they represent and how much.

For damage I use Burger Tokens and have them as 1/3 rather than 1/1 or 3/3, this is a basic convenience to me, and my opponent could complain and the TO would have to decide that these are or are not resistant to accidental modification.

52 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If intent doesn’t matter, can I object to my opponent using d2s? (thanks Amanal 😘 )

You are most welcome.

Of course you can object, and I am certain that most reasonable TO's will ask you to take a long walk of a short pier.

56 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

So where do we draw the line between things that can be accidentally modified and things that can’t? What metric of modifiability do we apply?

If intent doesn’t matter, can I object to my opponent using d2s? (thanks Amanal 😘 )

”You can’t use those damage tokens.”

”Why not? They came in the starter box.”

”I was told on a forum that any multi-faceted object with marked sides, that can be used to determine a random outcome amongst one or more possibly redundant numbers or unique symbols qualifies as a die. Sorry, bud.”

If you bump a token with your hand, you don’t change its value.

The same can’t be said for spindown dice .

7 minutes ago, Amanal said:

I would go by the rules: "resistant to accidental modification" I think the basic test you could apply is to see if chosen object is equal to or harder to change than a standard FFG token.

I use little "fishbowl decorations in yellow" for my amber, bump these as much as you like but there will never be any doubt about what they represent and how much.

For damage I use Burger Tokens and have them as 1/3 rather than 1/1 or 3/3, this is a basic convenience to me, and my opponent could complain and the TO would have to decide that these are or are not resistant to accidental modification.

You are most welcome.

Of course you can object, and I am certain that most reasonable TO's will ask you to take a long walk of a short pier.

I agree, shallow and pedantic.

Heart you bro.