Hey guys and gals,

How would you handle Hanemuri (shadowlands bats) in combat? I don't think there's any rules for swarms of small creatures, is there?

Low fatigue but high resistance, with that resistance being both physical and supernatural. Representing not so much that they are tough but that it's hard to land a hit on them that actually kills a notable number of bats. That + an ability that says they don't get the resistance vs attacks that can target more than 1 target (As AOE swathes through them).

On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 11:51 AM, Hansisaf said:

Hey guys and gals,

How would you handle Hanemuri (shadowlands bats) in combat? I don't think there's any rules for swarms of small creatures, is there?

Not as yet. Mobs of minions do 'sum up' their combat ability but adding a whole extra ring rank (or worse yet, skill rank) is pushing it for something that's supposed to be pretty weak.

The closest thing currently in the rules would be a mob of falcons, but that's no small threat and should be treated with care (air 4 with deadliness 6 talons!).

Alternatively, use a mob of falcons for the sake of having stats (with Tainted, obviously) but assume each "falcon" killed represents a cluster of a half dozen or so bats.

Honestly, I would probably make them a non-combat challenge; that is, "they attack you, make a fitness or martial arts melee check to fend them off, every round you don't do so they will inflict fatigue, and (ultimately) bleeding and critical strikes."

That allows you to vary the TN depending on your tactics - trying to punch your way out of the flock (Fire) is unlikely to achieve much whilst using your environment (Water) by rolling on the ground, or diving into a stream or something, is a better bet.

EDIT: actually, looking at the rules, a mob of hawks isn't too bad a match. Their talons are Deadliness 6 but only damage 1, and as minions they can't jump 'straight to criticals' by spending ** without incapacitating you first (and you were wearing armour in the shadowlands, right?), and with endurance 2 meaning every strike causing 3 or more damage is a 'kill' you should cut through the mob pretty quickly.

They can use opportunity to crit. That is part of the action they perform (strike) and not narrative expenditure (like the examples on p.328, 329).

If you don't let them crit, with their 1 dmg, they might as well not exist.

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The game runs most smoothly if minions only spend * on options listed in their abilities

Abilities are their pseudo-techniques (in this case Swoop ), not those in actions unless those actions unique ones which are part of their abilities (like the Shark's Blood In The Water ). It's not a hard-and-fast mandate (what is, in this game?) but it's no more specific to the 'narrative opportunities' table than anything else.

39 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

If you don't let them crit, with their 1 dmg, they might as well not exist.

Depends. If they're attacking a largely unarmoured opponent (i.e. not a samurai in full plate) then with 4 ring dice and a skill die they can easily rack up enough bonus successes to hurt someone in (say) travelling clothes or peasant robes. Not much, but they are, after all, pretty small.

More importantly, if these things are representing Hanemuri, they're turning up mob-handed; every success after the first 2 is an extra point of damage, and since they have Martial 1 it's extra skill dice, not ring dice. A lone bat can't touch a samurai in full plate but then they shouldn't.

A mob of half a dozen? That's 4 ring dice and 6 skill dice rolled, only dropping one. No, it's not exactly devastating, but they're not. It's still enough to hurt an armoured target, though. More significantly, with the talons having a higher deadliness than a single-handed katana strike, you really shouldn't be letting minions go straight to critical strikes.

8 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Abilities are their pseudo-techniques (in this case Swoop ), not those in actions unless those actions unique ones which are part of their abilities (like the Shark's Blood In The Water ). It's not a hard-and-fast mandate (what is, in this game?) but it's no more specific to the 'narrative opportunities' table than anything else.

Depends. If they're attacking a largely unarmoured opponent (i.e. not a samurai in full plate) then with 4 ring dice and a skill die they can easily rack up enough bonus successes to hurt someone in (say) travelling clothes or peasant robes. Not much, but they are, after all, pretty small.

More importantly, if these things are representing Hanemuri, they're turning up mob-handed; every success after the first 2 is an extra point of damage, and since they have Martial 1 it's extra skill dice, not ring dice. A lone bat can't touch a samurai in full plate but then they shouldn't.

A mob of half a dozen? That's 4 ring dice and 6 skill dice rolled, only dropping one. No, it's not exactly devastating, but they're not. It's still enough to hurt an armoured target, though. More significantly, with the talons having a higher deadliness than a single-handed katana strike, you really shouldn't be letting minions go straight to critical strikes.

its a hawk. probably bats don't have 6 deadliness.

plus they are not increasing that deadliness because they cannot spend opportunities to do so.

its not that "devastating". its just challenging enough. and that was HALF A DOZEN of hawks o_O

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

its a hawk. probably bats don't have 6 deadliness.

plus they are not increasing that deadliness because they cannot spend opportunities to do so.

its not that "devastating". its just challenging enough. and that was HALF A DOZEN of hawks o_O

No. Explicitely that's Beak & Talons, not just a bite. A dog bite, by comparison, is damage 4 deadliness 2. If customising the NPC, feel free to slide up and down on the scale as required.

Just now, Magnus Grendel said:

No. Explicitely that's Beak & Talons, not just a bite. A dog bite, by comparison, is damage 4 deadliness 2. If customising the NPC, feel free to slide up and down on the scale as required.

ever played the video game Far Cry ?

that's a bit how they represent hawks, they don't really "fatigue" you, but once in a while they land that sneaky critical blow.

in comparison a dog would probably chew on you until you fall on the floor and then chew some more, and more.

7 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

ever played the video game Far Cry ?

that's a bit how they represent hawks, they don't really "fatigue" you, but once in a while they land that sneaky critical blow.

in comparison a dog would probably chew on you until you fall on the floor and then chew some more, and more.

Right, but with stats not far off a lot of samurai characters, they're not going to be doing it once in a while. Hit/Crit every turn from a single hawk is unlikely but a mob of a couple of them can be lethal.

Just now, Magnus Grendel said:

Right, but with stats not far off a lot of samurai characters, they're not going to be doing it once in a while. Hit/Crit every turn from a single hawk is unlikely but a mob of a couple of them can be lethal.

yeah. a mob of 6 hawks is not something i'd casually piss off. though you can probably take them down relatively quickly.

22 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

yeah. a mob of 6 hawks is not something i'd casually piss off.

Indeed. Even one can surprise you if it's using Swoop to dart in and out of a fight and hit incapacitated opponents.

One of my main complaints in the Beta was the Passion Animal Bond - gaining a silhouette 0 animal doesn't sound too bad, and when Yasoroku saw someone attacking its owner/friend, having it join in the fight didn't seem unreasonable at the time.

Watching it drive-by (fly-by?) and gravely-wound-and-bleeding the Maho-Tsukai Sakae during the fight on the wall left me rather disillusioned about that.

We had something similar with a Mantis who wanted an Animal Bond monkey (channelling Pirates-of-the-Carribean-with-Katanas internally but keeping a lid on the out-loud "Yaharrs" when anyone respectable was within earshot) - which sounded narratively appropriate - we basically used the stats for a dog, on the theory that Working Companion affects trade skills - in this case Seafaring.

Main conclusion: be careful what you allow your PC's Animal Bond to do if it's not an animal you get in character creation anyway .

1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. Even one can surprise you if it's using Swoop to dart in and out of a fight and hit incapacitated opponents.

One of my main complaints in the Beta was the Passion Animal Bond - gaining a silhouette 0 animal doesn't sound too bad, and when Yasoroku saw someone attacking its owner/friend, having it join in the fight didn't seem unreasonable at the time.

Watching it drive-by (fly-by?) and gravely-wound-and-bleeding the Maho-Tsukai Sakae during the fight on the wall left me rather disillusioned about that.

We had something similar with a Mantis who wanted an Animal Bond monkey (channelling Pirates-of-the-Carribean-with-Katanas internally but keeping a lid on the out-loud "Yaharrs" when anyone respectable was within earshot) - we basically used the stats for a dog, on the theory that Working Companion affects trade skills - in this case Seafaring.

Main conclusion: be careful what you allow your PC's Animal Bond to do if it's not an animal you get in character creation anyway .

there are much more concerning subjects that which animal you allow. movement/mobility during skirmishes being a headache currently for me. my main concern. as written, it just doesn't work for tactical skirmishes.

also the odd earth opportunity spending that make you able to disregard a disadvantage. that comes so often (martial opp spending, initiative opp spending, tactical assessment) but we really think it is either a weak way to spend opportunities OR a narrative breaking way. cases that it fits nicely are too few and far between. so looking to replace all these opp spendings by another mechanic for earth.

Thank you all for your replies. I have some great ideas from your suggestions and I'm concocting something to use next wednesday. I'll let you know how it went!

[Edit] We'll probably get Hanemuri and Fudoshi with the new Shadowlands book. Can't wait to see what FFG made of it.