Someone said on the wiki that Loose Cargo doesn't stress ships when it's dropped on them (they have to move through it). Is that the case?

The Official Rulings thread says the ship counts as overlapping the obstacle, which should trigger the stress since the rules ref says "A ship can suffer effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of obstacles.".

But I'm not sure how this is being ruled by TOs etc who might know better than I do. It's odd to me that the official ruling doesn't explicitly say "and the ship suffers the effects", which they ought to. Or they ought to say "and this ship overlaps, but doesn't suffer effects until it moves through it".

-Dan

It doesn't say "and suffers the effects" because that would be redundant. If a ship overlaps an obstacle it suffers the effects unless something explicitly says not to.

At coruscant it was ruled that it doesnt trigger, as you only suffer the effect of an obstacle if you move through it.

Rules reference guide page 13

"Obstacles act as hazards that can disrupt and damage ships. A ship can
suffer effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of
obstacles.
While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an
obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on
the type of obstacle:
• Asteroid: After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a 󲁧
result, the ship suffers one 󲁧 damage; on a 󲁨 result, it suffers one 󲁨
damage. Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round.
• Debris Cloud: After the Check Difficulty step, the ship gains one
stress token. After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a
󲁨 result, the ship suffers one 󲁨 damage. "

Some people read the rules as saying:

• Moving onto an obstacle causes overlap.
• Overlapping an obstacle in any way causes side effects.

Other people read the rules as saying:

• Moving onto an obstacle causes side effects directly, and also, separately , causes overlap. However...
• Overlapping an obstacle triggers nothing in and of itself except for the "can't attack while at Range 0 of an asteroid" rule.

Personally, I think people arguing #2 are probably technically more correct, but it's due to FFG unintentionally getting the details wrong when they wrote the new rules ref and they never meant to change it from how it worked in 1st Edition.

Hmm... Corusant sounds like the closest we have to a clear official ruling. Looks like for now I'll be treating it as "they don't suffer the effect" until we hear otherwise from FFG.

Thanks everyone!

Nvm!

In the rules update at the top of the page it has:

1 hour ago, Vykk Draygo said:

In the rules update at the top of the page it has:

Q: If the Loose Cargo from Rigged Cargo Chute [Illicit] overlaps another ship, what happens?

A: It is placed underneath the ship, and the ship overlaps it.

if the ship overlaps then shouldn’t it suffer the effects?

One would think so. However, at Coruscant, it was apparently ruled otherwise. So, we just don't know.

Lacking an official ruling, however, the Coruscant ruling (only triggers upon overlapping via movement) would seem to be the best course of action to follow.

On 12/5/2018 at 11:07 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

Lacking an official ruling,,,

the rule update thread at the top of the rules forum is official.

2 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

the rule update thread at the top of the rules forum is official.

And yet, the official tournament rules document states that only the Rules Reference and the Tournament Rules are official rules documents. While I agree that the forum rulings should be considered binding, they are not supported by any other documentation outside of the thread itself. The fact that the document says "these rulings are official," doesn't supersede the other documents that say "there are no other rulings documents."

It's a bit of a catch-22, that could be easily solved by FFG just updating the Rules Reference more often, to coincide with their forum-based "official rulings"...!

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

And yet, the official tournament rules document states that only the Rules Reference and the Tournament Rules are official rules documents. While I agree that the forum rulings should be considered binding, they are not supported by any other documentation outside of the thread itself. The fact that the document says "these rulings are official," doesn't supersede the other documents that say "there are no other rulings documents."

It's a bit of a catch-22, that could be easily solved by FFG just updating the Rules Reference more often, to coincide with their forum-based "official rulings"...!

I would think that the rules update at the top of the forum would be at least as accurate as, well my brothers sisters first cousins neighbor heard that they ruled this way this one time at some tournament in a galaxy far, far away.....

but then again, what the **** do I know. Almost seems at times people like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Tell me, if it’s placed under the ship and the ship overlaps....and we have rules for what happens when you overlap, then why exactly is it so difficult to understand the rule?

Seems to be pretty well laid out to me. It’s an older code sir, but it checks out.

On 12/8/2018 at 8:22 PM, Vykk Draygo said:

I would think that the rules update at the top of the forum would be at least as accurate as, well my brothers sisters first cousins neighbor heard that they ruled this way this one time at some tournament in a galaxy far, far away.....

Oh, I agree, it should be taken as official. And I agree that the ruling of "when placed, it overlaps" means the effects are suffered. I don't think the intention (dangerous word, I know) of the ruling is ambiguous in the slightest.

The problem is, the exact interaction we're talking about is not discussed in either the Rules Reference Guide or the Tournament Regulations . And nowhere in those two standardized official rules documents, does it say anything about particular rulings being found on an online forum. Does the fact that the Forum Official Rulings say they are official give them the same weight as the RRG or Tourney Regs? As an additional point, at the Coruscant Invitational (a prestigious high-level official tournament), it was apparently ruled that the function of Rigged Cargo Chute was different from what the Forum Official Rulings states. How does that ruling play into the discussion?

The fact is, until the Forum Official Rules are recognized as an appropriate rules source, or the Rules Reference Guide is updated to include clarification on the function of Rigged Cargo Chute/Loose Cargo Token, this will remain a point of debate.

(Again, please note that I agree with the Forum Official Rulings interpretation - I'm only saying that it's not clear - to me, at least - just how "official" those Official Rulings are.)

6 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

(Again, please note that I agree with the Forum Official Rulings interpretation - I'm only saying that it's not clear - to me, at least - just how "official" those Official Rulings are.)

In all honesty it baffles me that anyone would consider that a post by FFG's "OfficialRules" account on a pinned thread on the FFG website called "X-Wing Official Rulings" that says 'This thread is an official source for game rulings, in addition to all documents on our website' might not be an official place for rules.

16 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

In all honesty it baffles me that anyone would consider that a post by FFG's "OfficialRules" account on a pinned thread on the FFG website called "X-Wing Official Rulings" that says 'This thread is an official source for game rulings, in addition to all documents on our website' might not be an official place for rules.

Honestly... because it's not actually referenced in FFG's official tournament rules, is why. It's stupid, but it's true. I'd expect TOs to rule according to that thread in uncleart cases, but I find it hard to blame them if they stick to RAW (even when RAW is stupid) when the guidance document doesn't point to that thread as a rules source.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Honestly... because it's not actually referenced in FFG's official tournament rules, is why. It's stupid, but it's true. I'd expect TOs to rule according to that thread in uncleart cases, but I find it hard to blame them if they stick to RAW (even when RAW is stupid) when the guidance document doesn't point to that thread as a rules source.

PRECISELY . In the first page of the Tournament Guidelines (well, second, since the first is a cover sheet):

21 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Oh, I agree, it should be taken as official. And I agree that the ruling of "when placed, it overlaps" means the effects are suffered. I don't think the intention (dangerous word, I know) of the ruling is ambiguous in the slightest.

The problem is, the exact interaction we're talking about is not discussed in either the Rules Reference Guide or the Tournament Regulations . And nowhere in those two standardized official rules documents, does it say anything about particular rulings being found on an online forum. Does the fact that the Forum Official Rulings say they are official give them the same weight as the RRG or Tourney Regs? As an additional point, at the Coruscant Invitational (a prestigious high-level official tournament), it was apparently ruled that the function of Rigged Cargo Chute was different from what the Forum Official Rulings states. How does that ruling play into the discussion?

The fact is, until the Forum Official Rules are recognized as an appropriate rules source, or the Rules Reference Guide is updated to include clarification on the function of Rigged Cargo Chute/Loose Cargo Token, this will remain a point of debate.

(Again, please note that I agree with the Forum Official Rulings interpretation - I'm only saying that it's not clear - to me, at least - just how "official" those Official Rulings are.)

This gets a bit dicey since the Marshal has ultimate authority on rulings at events, so the ruling stands even if it turns out later they were wrong (or at least FFG rules something else differently).

The real challenge with this particular question is that it is less clear what "Overlap" means in that window since the only insight we have on it is what to do when you overlap while maneuvering. Locally, we've been ruling that it does kick off when dropped mostly because for us it's already a bit of a fringe use and seemed cooler for it to work. Plus it's the only way for obstacles to affect Dash and that seems fun.

We'll be very curious to see if they clarify what it means to overlap in that scenario. And that doesn't really get into the whole "rulings are only valid from RR and TR" situation.

Maybe we'll get that clarified too, along with the point adjustment, in January.

There is another ruling in the Official Rulings thread that indicates to me that dropping debris on a ship doesn't trigger anything immediately:

Quote

Q: Do TIE Strikers (and Reapers) skip their perform action step if they overlap an asteroid or another ship with their Aileron’s ability maneuver?

A: No. It is only during the Execute Maneuver step that a ship skips its Perform Action step for overlapping a ship or obstacle.

Since Adaptive Aileron's trigger is "Before you reveal your dial", it seems that FFG has three different stages of obstacle interaction:

1. Overlapping a Debris triggers nothing in and of itself. Overlapping Asteroids means the ship cannot perform attacks.
2. Executing a maneuver causes certain effects. For Debris it is "gain one stress token" and "Suffer a crit if you roll one". For Asteroids, you roll for damage and skip the Perform Action step.
3. Moving but not executing a maneuver causes certain (slightly) different effects. For Debris it is "gain one stress token" and "Suffer a crit if you roll one". For Asteroids, you just roll for damage but don't skip the Perform Action step.

Further, point 1 is reinforced by the obstacle rules themselves: "Before a ship moves, if it is at range 0 of an obstacle, it does not suffer the effects of that obstacle unless it moves through or overlaps that obstacle again."