I think you guys are all ignroing the word "while" on daredevils card... it does not care if the action startered white or not... its while you are doing it that matters and poe told you to do it and treat it red, so you do it and its red while you do it so daredevil does not work.

That's my last post on this as I can't say it more clearly.

This is interesting.

I met DD Poe yesterday, and the 90 degree turn before movement was AMAZING... but perhaps then, not entirely legal?

12 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

This is interesting.

I met DD Poe yesterday, and the 90 degree turn before movement was AMAZING... but perhaps then, not entirely legal?

If it was a pre-maneuver boost, I'm guessing it was from BB8 or coordinate. In those cases it's legal. It becomes trickier if Poe uses his ability to perform a second action.

23 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

If it was a pre-maneuver boost, I'm guessing it was from BB8 or coordinate. In those cases it's legal. It becomes trickier if Poe uses his ability to perform a second action.

It was bb8, but using daredevil to make it a 90 degree turn. Which seems like it's not legal after all.

13 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

It was bb8, but using daredevil to make it a 90 degree turn. Which seems like it's not legal after all.

No that one is fine. Doing it with poes ability is what is in question.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

No that one is fine. Doing it with poes ability is what is in question.

Ah good, I see it now: just reread the cards.

BB-8 + DD is all good!

9 hours ago, Icelom said:

I think you guys are all ignroing the word "while" on daredevils card... it does not care if the action startered white or not... its while you are doing it that matters and poe told you to do it and treat it red, so you do it and its red while you do it so daredevil does not work.

That's my last post on this as I can't say it more clearly.

I'm not ignoring "while" so much as I don't think it does as much work as you think it does.

But yeah, this is a pointless discussion, because we're mostly in agreement (at very least, Poe probably doesn't work), except over how much nuance exists here.

Sorry for being cranky earlier, and all the best.

i agree. daredevil is a replacement effect, though. poe says perform a white action treating it as red, so he's trying to perform a red boost and wants to use daredevil to use the hard 1 template, daredevil checks if the boost is white to allow the hard 1 template to be used INSTEAD (replacement effect keyword). poe says you need to treat the boost action as red, so daredevil doesn't work.

does it really need an faq? i don't think so, but as you should be aware, i'm a bit silly.

faqs are good for clarity.

Daredevil + Poe doesn't work. While you perform a white boost action, you may treat it as red to use a hard turn . Here's the problem.

With Poe's baked in PTL, you're treating the post-charge move AS RED. Thus, the white boost from Daredevil cannot be treated as white, because Poe's card demands that it be red. So he will only bank boost.

I think a lot of the confusion from this is that many are trying to apply some 1st edition logic.

In first edition, PTL didn't change the nature of an action, but left it as the same action, but also assigned a stress. With this, a ship (A-wing) could both PTL and Daredevil, but at the cost of 2 stress tokens. Obviously, Tycho didn't care too much about this.

The second edition wording on Poe says "treating that action as red." The clear question that needs to be answered is whether treating an action as red is the same as it actually being red. At this moment, we have no precedent on that.

Both arguments are valid, as one could say it is a white boost, so daredevil can trigger, even if it is being treated as red. The clear opposition is that treating an action as red means that it cannot work with any references to white actions - because if it is being treated as red, it *is* red in gameplay terms.

FFG clearly needs to give a clarification. If they say daredevil and Poe do work together that opens up the next question - is is a "nested" effect like the aforementioned PTL/Daredevil, resulting in 2 stress? I would hope so, or else Poe would get to circumvent a key aspect of his ability; the stress.

7 hours ago, SwampyCr said:

I think a lot of the confusion from this is that many are trying to apply some 1st edition logic.

In first edition, PTL didn't change the nature of an action, but left it as the same action, but also assigned a stress. With this, a ship (A-wing) could both PTL and Daredevil, but at the cost of 2 stress tokens. Obviously, Tycho didn't care too much about this.

The second edition wording on Poe says "treating that action as red." The clear question that needs to be answered is whether treating an action as red is the same as it actually being red. At this moment, we have no precedent on that.

Both arguments are valid, as one could say it is a white boost, so daredevil can trigger, even if it is being treated as red. The clear opposition is that treating an action as red means that it cannot work with any references to white actions - because if it is being treated as red, it *is* red in gameplay terms.

FFG clearly needs to give a clarification. If they say daredevil and Poe do work together that opens up the next question - is is a "nested" effect like the aforementioned PTL/Daredevil, resulting in 2 stress? I would hope so, or else Poe would get to circumvent a key aspect of his ability; the stress.

Might want to read the thread at the top of this Sub Forum some time...

23 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Might want to read the thread at the top of this Sub Forum some time...

That's not relevant to this case. No effects are causing the action to be white, two are causing it to be red with different timings, and both require it to be white to work.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

That's not relevant to this case. No effects are causing the action to be white, two are causing it to be red with different timings, and both require it to be white to work.

The relevant part is that the action is considered RED when it is affected by "treat as"...

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

The relevant part is that the action is considered RED when it is affected by "treat as"...

Which was not in question.

The question was, essentially, whether you can apply both effects at the same time, treating one white action as red with both.

The consensus is no you can't, because one of them has an earlier trigger time, and even if it didn't, nothing in this game is truly simultaneous.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Which was not in question.

The question was, essentially, whether you can apply both effects at the same time, treating one white action as red with both.

The consensus is no you can't, because one of them has an earlier trigger time, and even if it didn't, nothing in this game is truly simultaneous.

The underlined section of the post I had quoted: "The clear question that needs to be answered is whether treating an action as red is the same as it actually being red. At this moment, we have no precedent on that."

That is what I was addressing. Skim less please.

Apologies, I didn't even stop to think that someone could make that mistake.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Apologies, I didn't even stop to think that someone could make that mistake.

Happens, my apologies for getting irate.

My apologies for not noticing that section earlier. There are a few too many places to check for relevant rulings at this point in the game, and I completely spaced on that now being an option.

It would seem to me that if we are saying it is treated as red, you could apply the effects in either order, but as Poe's ability requires it to be a white boost, Daredevil being first would stop that. The same argument could be made for daredevil, the boost is now "red" meaning Daredevil does not work.

Simultaneous effects still end up occurring sequentially, so either way whichever is applied first should prevent the other from happening.

Just my 2 cents.

On 12/9/2018 at 11:10 AM, SwampyCr said:

My apologies for not noticing that section earlier. There are a few too many places to check for relevant rulings at this point in the game, and I completely spaced on that now being an option.

It would seem to me that if we are saying it is treated as red, you could apply the effects in either order, but as Poe's ability requires it to be a white boost, Daredevil being first would stop that. The same argument could be made for daredevil, the boost is now "red" meaning Daredevil does not work.

Simultaneous effects still end up occurring sequentially, so either way whichever is applied first should prevent the other from happening.

Just my 2 cents.

They are not simultaneous.

Poe says to preform an action and treat it red. Daredevil checked while you are boosting and then let's you make it 90 and turns it red. The boost is red before daredevil ever checks it.

I said I would not post again but I did because I am weak and everyone refusing to read what the cards say is driving me nuts. Even if in the above case it came to the same conclusion that these 2 cards do not work together.

On 12/10/2018 at 12:11 PM, Icelom said:

They are not simultaneous.

Poe says to preform an action and treat it red. Daredevil checked while you are boosting and then let's you make it 90 and turns it red. The boost is red before daredevil ever checks it.

I said I would not post again but I did because I am weak and everyone refusing to read what the cards say is driving me nuts. Even if in the above case it came to the same conclusion that these 2 cards do not work together.

For real though, like, it can't be white. I understand people's desire to have an auto-include that's powerful but just, no, y'know? This does not work and it will never work, the wording specifically excludes it.