1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

Conditions appear to be boolean. More correctly, only a few have multiple applications that can be in effect, and they specify separate ring linkages, and those specify what happens when a second occurrence is triggered as becoming a different condition.

So, no, multiple enraged is still just enraged.

so, if you have a condition, and an action would give you a second instance of that same condition, it doesn't happen ? or it happens but there is no effect ?

you would say Matsu cannot use their school ability if they are already enraged ? the wording is "you may suffer the enraged condition to".

imo.. even if you are already enraged you can still suffer the enraged condition.

but honestly.. there is no right answer... thats L5R FFG for you. no straight answer for a lot of things. it's the GM's call in a lot of situations. thats by design

2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

S  o   , no, multiple enr  age  d is still just en  rag  ed. 

I have indeed no doubt that getting Enraged multiple times changes nothing to the condition (no stacking the crit severity bonuses for instance), but the main question is: can you chose to become enraged if you already are, only to benefit from the Fatigue recovery of the Matsu technique.

In another context, I can imagine that an enraged character gets the effect slapped again on them (e.g. with an application of Fanning the Flames). It will have no effect whatsoever, but this can theoretically happen.

Overall, it does not seem like it would be super game breaking to let the Matsu heal herself twice or three times this way during a scene. Especially at lower ranks, the effect is not very impressive. And it’s a risk as well (receiving critical hits at +2 severity is not what the doctor said you need)

Thank you all for your thoughts on that, which confirm that... well that it’s not crystal clear 😛

5 minutes ago, Franwax said:

Especially at lower ranks, the effect is not very impressive. And it’s a risk as well (receiving critical hits at +2 severity is not what the doctor said you need) 😛

As @AtoMaki said, the ability's power comes from getting to become Enraged much more than from the fatigue benefit. There certainly is a downside to it as well, but several school abilities have downsides. Voluntary Enrage is a good thing.

8 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

As @AtoMaki said, the ability's power comes from getting to become Enraged much more than from the fatigue benefit. There certainly is a downside to it as well, but several school abilities have downsides. Voluntary Enrage is a good thing.

well. its "ok" its not like OP. Heart Piercing Strike is OP though.

but, overall, the fact that the ability can make you become enraged have nothing to do with the fact that you can (or cannot) use the ability if you are already enraged.

in your example, the goal is to be enraged. not to use the ability for the fatigue heal if you are already enraged. so it belongs in another discussion, not the original post's question.

1 minute ago, Franwax said:

I have indeed no doubt that getting Enraged multiple times changes nothing to the condition (no stacking the crit severity bonuses for instance), but the main question is: can you chose to become enraged if you already are, only to benefit from the Fatigue recovery of the Matsu technique.

In another context, I can imagine that an enraged character gets the effect slapped again on them (e.g. with an application of Fanning the Flames). It will have no effect whatsoever, but this can theoretically happen.

Overall, it does not seem like it would be super game breaking to let the Matsu heal herself twice or three times this way during a scene. Especially at lower ranks, the effect is not very impressive. And it’s a risk as well (receiving critical hits at +2 severity is not what the doctor said you need)

Thank you all for your thoughts on that, which confirm that... well that it’s not crystal clear 😛

Given page 174 noting that one may select which of the two sources applies...

Now, that's about techniques, but it's not explicitly restricted to techniques, and it would apply if becoming enraged from a technique while enraged by Matsu, so simple logic leads to reciprocity.

Since Enraged is listed as suffer... if you're already suffering it, I'd not allow it. It's unusual as it doesn't take much to do so - the standard means is an unmask, and one can voluntarily up one's strife.

46 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

so, if you have a condition, and an action would give you a second instance of that same condition, it doesn't happen ? or it happens but there is no effect ?

Page 174: "A character cannot benefit (or suffer) from more than one instance of the same persistent effect, even if the effect would be applied by multiple different sources. If a character would otherwise benefit (or suffer) from more than one instance of the same persistent effect, the character chooses which one applies if it is beneficial; the GM chooses which one applies if it is harmful"

Just now, Avatar111 said:

well. its "ok" its not like OP. Heart Piercing Strike is OP though.

but, overall, the fact that the ability can make you become enraged have nothing to do with the fact that you can (or cannot) use the ability if you are already enraged.

in your example, the goal is to be enraged. not to use the ability for the fatigue heal if you are already enraged. so it belongs in another discussion, not the original post's question.

If your argument is that the ability is too weak not to let the Matsu use it to heal fatigue multiple times per rage, I think it's a fair counterargument to point out the ability isn't that weak in my opinion and why.

5 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Page 174: "A character cannot benefit (or suffer) from more than one instance of the same persistent effect, even if the effect would be applied by multiple different sources. If a character would otherwise benefit (or suffer) from more than one instance of the same persistent effect, the character chooses which one applies if it is beneficial; the GM chooses which one applies if it is harmful"

since enraging is beneficial, i will choose that the new one will apply instead

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

since enraging is beneficial, i will choose that the new one will apply instead

Yeah, looks like you (or the GM) can very well chose to replace the previous instance of enraged by the new one, thus becoming enraged again and triggering the second part of the ability.

Also, there does seem to be more pros than cons to that condition, at least from a Matsu’s pov!

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

since enraging is beneficial, i will choose that the new one will apply instead

It's stated as "Suffer" - one does not "suffer" benefices.

Don't forget that being enraged makes all crits you take worse.

14 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

It's stated as "Suffer" - one does not "suffer" benefices.

Don't forget that being enraged makes all crits you take worse.

Enraged has both a benefit and a drawback. Hence, you can both suffer and enjoy it at the same time.

5 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Enraged has both a benefit and a drawback. Hence, you can both suffer and enjoy it at the same time.

Conditions are fairly consistently treated as bad; only enraged really has an upside. That, plus "suffer the enraged" being consistent use...

one is performing some serious mental gymnastics if claiming it's mechanically considered a positive.

2 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

1) Conditions are fairly consistently treated as bad; only enraged really has an upside. That, plus "suffer the enraged" being consistent use...

2) one is performing some serious mental gymnastics if claiming it's mechanically considered a positive.

1) since all but one are nothing but bad for you, it's not surprising they're consistently treated as bad.

2) it's a bit situational, but my Matsu player voluntarily enrages in more fights than not and it's been good for him so far. Normally getting to use the benefit on your turn before enemies can use it against you on theirs is significant, and with the use of Earth stance and/or party tactics incoming crits can be mitigated.

8 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

You are correct, but it doesn't matter since what I misremembered is that you can, by the rules (p. 29), pick up strife voluntary any time you want. If you can pick up strife any time you want, you can become compromised any time you want.

"When it makes narrative sense" isn't quite "any time you want" - although I freely admit "I chose to get enraged in a battle" is hardly illogical for a self-labelled 'bezerker school'.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

1) since all but one are nothing but bad for you, it's not surprising they're consistently treated as bad.

2) it's a bit situational, but my Matsu player voluntarily enrages in more fights than not and it's been good for him so far. Normally getting to use the benefit on your turn before enemies can use it against you on theirs is significant, and with the use of Earth stance and/or party tactics incoming crits can be mitigated.

Again, skirmishes tend to be comparatively light on criticals unless facing adversary-level opponents, anyway; Heartpiercing strike and similar are all well and good but generic minion #23 doesn't have the technique to use.... and since they've got to chop through your ability to defend before landing criticals, - and, since you're (presumably) on a battlefield where armour is not out of place, any recovered fatigue is extra valuable, since getting rid of it again through lacquered plate can mean a whole extra strike action for a minion just to knock off a point or two.

2 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Enraged has both a benefit and a drawback. Hence, you can both suffer and enjoy it at the same time.

We don’t want to know what kind of weird trip the Matsu are into !!

But seriously, even if we consider this a negative effect, the rule just says that the GM decides which instance of the conditional effect applies. So it’s basically up to the GM to allow Fatigue healing multiple times or not, by choosing to let the previous or new instance of Enraged to take effect.

3 hours ago, Franwax said:

We don’t want to know what kind of weird trip the Matsu are into !!

But seriously, even if we consider this a negative effect, the rule just says that the GM decides which instance of the conditional effect applies. So it’s basically up to the GM to allow Fatigue healing multiple times or not, by choosing to let the previous or new instance of Enraged to take effect.

Its always up to the GM in this game, the rules are unassuming.

On 12/3/2018 at 6:45 PM, nameless ronin said:

You are correct, but it doesn't matter since what I misremembered is that you can, by the rules (p. 29), pick up strife voluntary any time you want. If you can pick up strife any time you want, you can become compromised any time you want.

The rules don't say that at all. The rules explicitly say, "Players can choose to inflict strife on their own characters (and the GM can inflict strife on their characters as well) WHEN IT MAKES NARRATIVE SENSE, such as in response to fear, longing, desire, or other strong emotional stimuli."

A disruptive player may attempt to argue that the rules allow them to say they're longing for their lost love at any particular moment to gain Strife and thus unmask at will. But keep in mind that if you continually unmask you'll continue to lose honor and glory. If the GM is running a game about great clan samurai you could very quickly find your character retired. The GM has the right to say, "Sorry, a samurai with honor 0 is not an appropriate player character for this campaign."

See page 299 if you don't believe me. Under the header "Death and Retirement" it says, "Alternatively, a character might be retired from play because they have completed their duty, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN STRIPPED OF THEIR STATUS AS A SAMURAI," or because they have simply become too old for such adventures and wish to spend their final years in contemplation at a monastery."

The moral of the story is this - don't be a disruptive player. Unmasking is a big deal. If you try to argue that you can deal Strife to yourself in any given scene that can turn into a rapid plummet toward rolling a new character faster than you think...

6 hours ago, JonahHex said:

The rules don't say that at all. The rules explicitly say, "Players can choose to inflict strife on their own characters (and the GM can inflict strife on their characters as well) WHEN IT MAKES NARRATIVE SENSE, such as in response to fear, longing, desire, or other strong emotional stimuli."

We're talking about berserkers in combat (since that's the only time better crits are helpful). I'd think it makes narrative sense these bushi are responding to strong emotional stimuli.

On 12/5/2018 at 3:36 PM, nameless ronin said:

We're talking about berserkers in combat (since that's the only time better crits are helpful). I'd think it makes narrative sense these bushi are responding to strong emotional stimuli.

Should every battle provide strong enough emotional stimuli to deal Strife to oneself? That seems like a stretch, especially since Strife accumulates on its down during battle, particularly if you go into Fire Stance and thus tend to keep Strife whenever you roll it.

In any case, it's still not a good idea; you can only unmask once per scene, so if you become compromised a second time during the same encounter you'd be in a really bad position.

5 hours ago, JonahHex said:

Should every battle provide strong enough emotional stimuli to deal Strife to oneself? That seems like a stretch, especially since Strife accumulates on its down during battle, particularly if you go into Fire Stance and thus tend to keep Strife whenever you roll it.

In any case, it's still not a good idea; you can only unmask once per scene, so if you become compromised a second time during the same encounter you'd be in a really bad position.

The problem with not choosing to Enrage on your turn is that when it gets triggered half the time your enemies get to wail on you with increased severity criticals before you get to use the beneficial part - that's also a really bad position to be in. It's not a straightforward ability to use (and like I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't use it on my first turn), but practical experiences so far indicate it's better to consider it an active ability rather than a passive one.