Quick question about the Matsu berserker ability. Can it be triggered even if the Matsu is already under the effect of the Enraged condition?

Say she unmasks, activates the ability and becomes enraged + recovers x Fatigue. Next round, some lucky opponent lands a crit; can she still recover the same amount of Fatigue even though becoming Enraged again won’t do anything since she’s already having this condition?

It's a little ambiguous but that does not seem to be the intent to me. I don't think she can.

I would say no, but at the moment it's a GM-to-Determine

Matsu's Fury is one line - meaning one continuous ability, rather than multiple 'resolve-one-at-a-time' steps:

Quote

After you suffer a critical strike or unmask, you may suffer the Enraged condition to remove an amount of fatigue from yourself equal to your school rank.

Meaning triggering it explicitly depends on receiving Enraged . Which (to me) you can't, as you already are. But I freely admit I have no reference to offer.

Hmm....What the question really boils down to is "can you receive a condition you already have?"

I guess the best place to look at that debate is the Dying condition:

• If you already have Dying (3 Rounds) , receiving Dying (1 Round) is a possibility. Logically, that should kill you next round. Having an open femoral artery is no protection against having your head cut from your body
• If you already have Dying (3 Rounds) , receiving Dying (5 Rounds) is a possibility. Logically, that shouldn't mean you survive to round 4. A gut wound doesn't stitch an open femoral artery closed.
• First Aid and similar abilities talk about removing Dying but never mention the possibility of removing more than one instance of Dying , which would seem to contra-indicate the possibility of suffering Dying several times at once.

As we played it, she can. The ability would have a 'one per scene' or similar limitation if the intent was otherwise because the chance that it might trigger more than once per scene is obvious from the description so this is definitely not an oversight.

4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

As we played it, she can. The ability would have a 'one per scene' or similar limitation if the intent was otherwise because the chance that it might trigger more than once per scene is obvious from the description so this is definitely not an oversight.

Erm... You can remove the Enraged condition during a scene via a Support action, so it's possible to become Enraged - and thus trigger the Matsu Berserker ability - multiple times during the same scene anyway?

This ability is not that good anyway.

Even if Matsu can still use it if already enraged.

I would not worry. In lower ranks 1 or 2 fatigue is only situationally good and in higher ranks Matsu will be chopped in bite sized pieces with limbs falling of before using this ability more than 2, or maybe 3 times anyway.

I dont see the reason of not allowing it. Personally.

4 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Erm... You can remove the Enraged condition during a scene via a Support action, so it's possible to become Enraged - and thus trigger the Matsu Berserker ability - multiple times during the same scene anyway?

What I meant is that all of it was taken into consideration: the description is very obviously open to both "double-tapping" Enraged and "spamming" the ability through multiple critical strikes that can happen in quick succession in the very same round.

5 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

What I meant is that all of it was taken into consideration: the description is very obviously open to both "double-tapping" Enraged and "spamming" the ability through multiple critical strikes that can happen in quick succession in the very same round.

I really don't see why that would mean the devs would definitely have included a once per scene limitation otherwise. Depending on the interpretation, the limitation that it doesn't work if already Enraged is either there or it's not.

11 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I really don't see why that would mean the devs would definitely have included a once per scene limitation otherwise. Depending on the interpretation, the limitation that it doesn't work if already Enraged is either there or it's not.

Well, yes, " 'one per scene' or similar limitation" as I said. So it would be something like "once per scene" or "unless already Enraged" or "whatever just don't double-tap it". But it isn't there, so the ability can be used all the time it triggers.

If you double tap, the second critical will be at +2.

Enjoy.

This ability is average at best. Just allow it all the time and your player will him/herself not use it sometimes

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Well, yes, " 'one per scene' or similar limitation" as I said. So it would be something like "once per scene" or "unless already Enraged" or "whatever just don't double-tap it". But it isn't there, so the ability can be used all the time it triggers.

But that's the whole issue: it's not clear whether "unless already Enraged" is implicit or not, because the rules don't say whether you can suffer a condition you already have.

Just now, nameless ronin said:

But that's the whole issue: it's not clear whether "unless already Enraged" is implicit or not, because the rules don't say whether you can suffer a condition you already have.

You think this game is generally clear ? 😛

Just now, Avatar111 said:

You think this game is generally clear ? 😛

You know I don't. That doesn't affect my answer to the question asked in this thread though.

1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

But that's the whole issue: it's not clear whether "unless already Enraged" is implicit or not, because the rules don't say whether you can suffer a condition you already have.

You obviously can (see Wounded), it just doesn't have any extra effect in most cases because the basic effect is situational ("if you are enraged") rather than consecutive ("for each instance of Enraged you are suffering from").

10 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

This ability is average at best. Just allow it all the time and your player will him/herself not use it sometimes

The real power of the ability is to trigger Enraged with Unmasking. The Matsu Berserker has explicit access to Heartpiercing Strike at Rank 2, and they are pretty high on Fire from the get-go, so they are among the best Heartpiercing Nukers in the game from Rank 2.

13 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The real power of the ability is to trigger Enraged with Unmasking. The Matsu Berserker has explicit access to Heartpiercing Strike at Rank 2, and they are pretty high on Fire from the get-go, so they are among the best Heartpiercing Nukers in the game from Rank 2.

trigger enraged with unmasking? and double tap with that ? yeah that is fishy/broken most probably! (doesn't have anything to do with HPS though, HPS is just the best offensive kata in the game along with Crossing Cut imo)

make the Matsu ability once per round then (though once per turn would probably be cooler, are there any school abilities that are once per turn ? the hida one ?)

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

trigger enraged with unmasking? and double tap with that ?

No, just trigger Enraged once (Unmask at the beginning of your first turn), enjoy the +2 crit severity, do the Heartpiercing Nuke, and regain your spent Void Point if you kill your target. There is of course an obvious weak spot - you must start your first turn Compromised - but for a high-burst alpha strike this is a pwetty good one. it is also useless in Duels unless you want to eat a Finishing Blow.

6 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

No, just trigger Enraged once (Unmask at the beginning of your first turn), enjoy the +2 crit severity, do the Heartpiercing Nuke, and regain your spent Void Point if you kill your target. There is of course an obvious weak spot - you must start your first turn Compromised - but for a high-burst alpha strike this is a pwetty good one. it is also useless in Duels unless you want to eat a Finishing Blow.

oh yeah. that is fine, not OP i think. its just HPS that is really REALLY good. I honestly don't understand how it can be "extra successes to increase crit severity" on top of a higher TN to resist the crit. that's insane. At Higher ranks, if you can Fire stance decently well, that is all you will use most of the time probably. every extra successes AND opportunities will increase the deadliness, and strife symbols count as successes... ridiculously good. (plus, for one opportunity it makes you move one range band, you know, like an integrated water stance).

i was looking into "adjusting" HPS slightly... but have not touched it yet. though i'm quite sure it is slightly on the busted side and probably need a soft tone down.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

No, just trigger Enraged once (Unmask at the beginning of your first turn), enjoy the +2 crit severity, do the Heartpiercing Nuke, and regain your spent Void Point if you kill your target. There is of course an obvious weak spot - you must start your first turn Compromised - but for a high-burst alpha strike this is a pwetty good one. it is also useless in Duels unless you want to eat a Finishing Blow.

You can choose to unmask without being compromised. It's better to do so at the start of your second turn too - pick up as much strife as you want during your first turn, then unmask on turn 2 to get the Enraged benefit, drop all that strife from your first turn, and possibly heal some fatigue if you picked up any during that first turn.

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

You obviously can (see Wounded), it just doesn't have any extra effect in most cases because the basic effect is situational ("if you are enraged") rather than consecutive ("for each instance of Enraged you are suffering from").

Wounded comes in multiple forms (lightly/severely, both for each ring as well). Each ring has to be healed separately, and if you heal a severely wounded ring it becomes lightly wounded. I don't think all of these forms count as one and the same condition.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

You can choose to unmask without being compromised.

It would be nice, but it is not the case:

Quote

Once per scene, while a character is Compromised , their player may choose to have the character unmask

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

Wounded comes in multiple forms (lightly/severely, both for each ring as well). Each ring has to be healed separately, and if you heal a severely wounded ring it becomes lightly wounded. I don't think all of these forms count as one and the same condition.

It is a kind of go-around, having multiple types of the same condition so that it does have an effect if you suffer it multiple times, but it is only in for Afflicted, Dying, and Wounded.

34 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It would be nice, but it is not the case:

It is a kind of go-around, having multiple types of the same condition so that it does have an effect if you suffer it multiple times, but it is only in for Afflicted, Dying, and Wounded.

i think you still get the second instance of the condition but the effect "fizzles" because it cannot stack. but for all other effects, you basically "suffered" the condition.

but it is open to interpretation. like a lot of other stuff.

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

No, just trigger Enraged once (Unmask at the beginning of your first turn), enjoy the +2 crit severity, do the Heartpiercing Nuke, and regain your spent Void Point if you kill your target. There is of course an obvious weak spot - you must start your first turn Compromised - but for a high-burst alpha strike this is a pwetty good one. it is also useless in Duels unless you want to eat a Finishing Blow.

Well, the Matsu are archetypical battlefield warriors rather than duellists, so a really good skirmish technique which is a lot less effective in duels is rather appropriate.

Just now, Magnus Grendel said:

Well, the Matsu are archetypical battlefield warriors rather than duellists, so a really good skirmish technique which is a lot less effective in duels is rather appropriate.

they have heart piercing strike at rank 2. their main rings are fire and earth... they are as good as any of the best dueillists as a starter.

Conditions appear to be boolean. More correctly, only a few have multiple applications that can be in effect, and they specify separate ring linkages, and those specify what happens when a second occurrence is triggered as becoming a different condition.

So, no, multiple enraged is still just enraged.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

It would be nice, but it is not the case: ...

You are correct, but it doesn't matter since what I misremembered is that you can, by the rules (p. 29), pick up strife voluntary any time you want. If you can pick up strife any time you want, you can become compromised any time you want.