Is it just me or does she seems to have been given the shaft?

True her stats add up to 16 higher than average that being 15.

But here ability seems to be lacking "Guardian Angel".

There is an unofficial official additional ability that one can give here to allow here to keep here blessing. Suppose if it was on her card it would look like this.

"Faith

Upkeep: Sister Mary may discard a clue token to re-roll a failed blessing check."

Furthermore she only starts the game with about 17 dollars worth of stuff (I didn't include here skill in this cost sense everyone gets a skill) and Chen start off with even fewer items about 15 dollars but here ability and skill more than make up for that.

So what are your guys/gals opinion on this mater?

There is an unofficial official additional ability that one can give here to allow here to keep here blessing. Suppose if it was on her card it would look like this.

"Faith

Upkeep: Sister Mary may discard to clue to re-roll her check to see if she keeps her blessing."

That's exactly the unofficial rule. The designer finally relented after all the complaining that maybe she was a tad weak. I misunderstood. Yes we use that unofficial rule.

Furthermore she only starts the game with about 17 dollars worth of stuff (I didn't include her skill in this cost sense everyone get a skill) and Chen start off with even fewer items about 15 dollars but here ability and skill more than make up for that.

I never noticed that. You know you count actual value when the items are fixed?

Can o' worms topic!!!

I myself have no problems with Sister Mary, although I do prefer to play her with that "Faith" house rule. I believe every Investigator can be played good or shafted bad. Almost everyone should have a story of the Nun with a shotgun and a chopper, as well as one with the Private Investigator with a curse and a busted leg.

My only problem with Mary is simply that the rest of my cult is not as "enlightened" as I am. Almost no one wants to play her, even with the house rule. It's hard to overcome a bad first impression, I guess.

Let's get this out of the way: Sister Mary is my #1 personal favourite investigator. Whenever she is in the game (random chars, natch), I feel like I'll have a good game, no matter what GOO I'll be up against. And 99% of the time it's true. Oh yeah, I don't even use the re-roll Blessing house-rule.

Now, if there could be something added to her, I wouldn't mind her having 1 Common as random. Having just 2 Spells and 1 Skill in addition to the known quantity of Holy Water + Cross feels kinda bland. Just 1 Common would add something.

On a KH note (yeah, I went there), the one who really gets the shaft is Amanda Sharpe. Daisy gets $5 (enough for Elder Sign), fixed Unique AND random Unique vs Amanda's $1 (down-right useless) and draw 3 Skills pick 2 (yeah, she gets a random UI too). Oh yeah, Daisy also gets 16 total stat AND 2 special abilities vs Amanda's 15 and 1 horribly, horribly crappy one.

IIRC, investigators starting stuff adds up to $25.

Word Walker (@ 24 dollars) gets 6 dollars more stuff that Sharpe (@ 18 Dollars).

Maybe give Mary a Random Unique (@ 5 Dollars) and Common Item (@ 3 Dollars). So that should bring here up to 25 Dollars worth of starting equipment or even replace the random Common Item with a clue token or the random Unique Item with 2 Clue Tokens.

mageith said:

I know most people create Investigators through Thelric's Strange Aeons program now, but before that, way back on the Ancient Forums before the Old Forums, Squashua reverse-engineered the method of Investigator creation better than anyone else had at the time. I assume Thelric developed a similar system, but according to the Squashua Method, each Investigator started with $25 equivalent worth of equipment (+ the one free Skill) on this list:

Common Item = $3 (random), or list price (specific)

Unique Item = $5 (random), or list price (specific)

Spell = $4 (random), or $4 + Spell Modifier (specific)

Skill, Ally, or Special = $10

Clues = $2 each

There were a few adjusted exceptions (Mike's Tommy Gun), but you should find that the original 16 Investigators all add up to $25, including Mary. And it looks like Lily adds up to $25 as well.

jgt7771 said:

Didn't know about the formula, just recalled the total from somewhere. Diana Stanley really is another that gets the short straw. $10 for STL Membership vs the same for Blessing seems kinda harsh. Though her special abilities make up for quite a bit.

What about the skill totals? Base-AH investigators mainly got 15 total, KH seems to have 16 primarily.

I recall the reasoning for Sister Mary's poor equipment is that her Blessing "cost" her $10 or something equally high. Apparently, all the non-cost special cards "cost" the same in terms of starting equipment.

Her Guardian Angel special ability is somewhat usefull against Yig, as she can be safely sent to other worlds even if the Doom track is getting close to 10 - too many times another Investigator has woken up Yig by getting LiTaS and immediately devoured.

-Villain

Amanda: 1 Skill = $10, 1 Common = $3, 1 Unique = $5, 1 Spell = $4, 1 Clue = $2, and $1..........$25

Daisy: Livre d'Ivon = list price $6, 1 Common = $3, 1 Unique = $5, 1 Spell = $4, 1 Clue = $2, and $5...........$25

It works out with the Squashua Method. I think you aren't assigning dollar value to Spells and Clues.

I figured the same for Common, Unique and the Ally but no to every thing else.

I'm basing the values off of the River Docks.

Special (Silver Twilight Lodge, Retainer, Blessing, Curse -5 Dollars) I figured at 5 dollars.

The Reason easily enough for the blessing is that you have to pay a Gate or 5 Monster trophies to get one and those have a value of 5 Dollars at the River Docks.

Blessing seem similar enough to the other Special cards so same value.

Spells have a Cost of 2.50 because it cost you 5 dollars to shop for 2 and you keep one.

Clue Tokens have a cost of 2.50 same reasons as blessing.

I left skills out because everyone gets one but I valued them at 4 dollars, similar reason to spells, you pay 8 for 2 at the Administration build at keep one.

But back to Mary I could see giving here a Clue Token as a fixed item because it will go well with her “Faith” ability.

jgt7771 said:

Just leaves skill totals and special abilities to sort out. Some get 2 really good ones, others get 1 crappy . Also, I do think $10 for Skill is a bit high, given that it only costs $8 in-game to buy one.

Dam said:

If I recall correctly, Investigators of the base game got mainly 17 total (Focus included). Amanda is an exception there, as she actually has 18 when counting her Focus.

-Villain

Dam said:

Squashua did have a method for that as well; you have to add in their FOCUS as well. Supposed to equal 17 total.

However, that method broke a little for the Kingsport characters. Some of them--the deadly Daisy included--equal 18.

Villain said:

There were two exceptions in the original 16: Amanda, who received +1 Focus for being the only Investigator with no Skill higher than 4, and Joe, who received +1 Focus for being the only Investigator with a combined "Combat Skills" (Fight/Will + Lore/Luck) less than or equal to 8.

Keep in mind that Squashua was only working with the original 16. He disappeared before Dunwich came out. Several DH and KH Investigators add up to 18, but there is no definable universal reason why. Not one that I can see, anyway.

And let me add that the Squashua Method has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on the PERCEIVED value of ANY card. He was reverse-engineering with pure math, and that is simply what the dollar values ended up becoming. Whether one believes that a Silver Twilight Lodge Membership is worthless or not, or a Spell is worth $4 or not, or Skills, Retainers, Blessings...yadda...didn't enter into it at all. It's just how the numbers crunch.

All 17 in DH minus Wilson 19.

Everyone from KH is 18 except for Adams 20 and Robinson and Kane 17.

Fun Fact: Squashua also predicted that a Curse would be -$5 equivalent; that is, the Investigator that starts with a Curse should get five extra dollars to spend on equipment.

Turns out Rex's possessions = $30.

Special (Silver Twilight Lodge, Retainer, Blessing, Curse -5 Dollars) I figured at 5 dollars.

I'd pay $5 for a retainer or STL or to remove a curse any day! $3 is a bargain for a STLM A retainer is going to give you a minimum of $4 return. Curses last forever, or so it seems. I Love the Inner Sanctum. I never bother with Blessings. I wouldn't even pay $5 for one with no work attached.

I'm starting to believe that Squashua was in fact Nyarlathotep in disguise and jgt7771 is one of his cultists...

-Villain

DH's Rita = 18 as well. Wilson kinda breaks the Focus rule by virtue of his Special Ability, and shouldn't really count. (The only reason Wilson had to be assigned a "4" for his focus is because a Dark Pharaoh card that grants "Clues = Focus" broke the game. Mixing Expansions...dangerous!)

Boy howdy, though: them Kingsport folk do indeed get some wild boosting. I can only guess that they come from sterner stock what with being around the likes of Atlach-Nacha and Yibb Tstll.

Translation: comparing the original 16 to Investigators made years later is probably futile. It's just gonna make us mad. As much as, say, the fact that a giant spider can make for a more deadly game than the Mighty Cthulhu or the Meddling Nyarlathotep.

Villain said:

A greater compliment I have never received. You honor me, sir.

Ya got me pegged, though. I suppose it's a tiny tiny TINY thorn for me, because Squashua vanished and no one remembers what he did, primarily because Thelric developed the massively more exciting and versatile Strange Aeons program.

I've never had any problems with sister mary, loved the theme, loved the special ability (could do with a bit of renovation of course)

I kinda prefer if you have to work harder or play differently with the investigators, makes the game more interesting.

Gallagen said:

Mary definately isn't "easy" .

Dam said:

::Snicker:: that's what she *wants* you to think, but she got assigned to Arkham for a reason ;') God's favorite **** her parishioners call her.

Looks like the Sister's swag adds up to $35 using Mr. Squashua method...

Blessing 10 + HW 4 + Cross 3 + Spells 2*4 + Skill 10 = 35!