So, we had a situation tonight that I’d like help from the group…

A unit in terrain is charged by another unit:

1) Is the charging unit colliding with the terrain, the unit in the terrain, or both?

2) As result of the charge, it destroys all of the trays in the defending unit in the terrain. From what I can tell, there is no mechanism which allows that surviving unit to enter the terrain as part of a follow up action (since the defender is no longer alive). If I am correct, that means the unit outside the terrain (the surviving attacker) in contact with the terrain but unable to enter it.

3) Thr next turn, that same surviving unit can’t enter the terrain (again) if I’m right as is started it’s turn in contact with the terrain.

Does this sound right? The unit will have effectively been blocked from entering that piece of terrain for two turns.

I have to confess, it sounds counter-intuitive to me. Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

Thanks, Cliff

1) Both

2) You are correct

3) With a march or forward shift, the unit will overlap the terrain and as a result enter it

37 minutes ago, Corto said:

3) With a march or forward shift, the unit will overlap the terrain and as a result enter it

This is unfortunately incorrect. When this situation came up at worlds it was ruled that you cannot march or shift into terrain you are already touching. This is because the only way to enter terrain is to collide with it and you cannot collide with terrain you are already touching.

I found this ruling to be a bit frustrating (as I'm sure @Church14 did) as we have always played it in my group as you describe: you can march or shift into empty terrain you are already touching. I'm still hoping they'll put out a faq at some point changing this rule because it feels real bad to waste a turn shifting or reforming so that you can collide with the terrain on the next round.

Great, thanks for the answers.

I agree with your sentiments on not being able to enter the terrain if you’re already touching it. It just doesn’t make sense. I think they would be better served adjusting Scuttling Horror (if needed) and chaning the wording of the rules as needed.

2 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

This is unfortunately incorrect. When this situation came up at worlds it was ruled that you cannot march or shift into terrain you are already touching. This is because the only way to enter terrain is to collide with it and you cannot collide with terrain you are already touching.

I found this ruling to be a bit frustrating (as I'm sure @Church14 did) as we have always played it in my group as you describe: you can march or shift into empty terrain you are already touching. I'm still hoping they'll put out a faq at some point changing this rule because it feels real bad to waste a turn shifting or reforming so that you can collide with the terrain on the next round.

I think the judge at worlds got it wrong, and I'm ignoring that ruling as it doesn't make any sense, and is contrary to the rules as written on line 60. In my mind, they need to FAQ it to match the ruling at worlds, not the other way around.

If a unit that cannot shift hits center on terrain, it's done for the game as you cannot reform and touch an obstacle, cannot shift, cannot march.

It's a place where the rules contradict themselves, and an FAQ is needed either way. The judge followed this logic:

81.1 describes how a unit can enter terrain. It requires a collision. 18.0 describes a collision as something that happens "if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action." Therefore, if you were already touching a piece of terrain, you can't collide with it, and therefore can't enter it.

However, you're right that 60.1 calls for a collision to be resolved anytime you're overlapping an obstacle, whether or not you were touching it before. I agree that this seems to override 18.0, but it's not clear.

18 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

If a unit that cannot shift hits center on terrain, it's done for the game as you cannot reform and touch an obstacle, cannot shift, cannot march.

This is true with a capacity-0 terrain (or terrain smaller than the unit) no matter how this ruling goes, so it isn't really relevant to the conversation. There are definitely always going to be situations where a unit without the ability to shift can get stuck somewhere forever. Thankfully, the only unit without a printed shift is Oathsworn Cavalry, and they can (and almost always should, imo) take Wind Rune.

Yeah there's no reason to take the (incorrect) worlds ruling as official rules text, especially when the RRG provides a clear way to resolve it. The game would be significantly worse for it.

A rule to let you enter terrain if you're touching it and destroy the unit inside would be interesting, wouldn't it.

30 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

A rule to let you enter terrain if you're touching it and destroy the unit inside would be interesting, wouldn't it.

I think I'd like this.

In the same vein, a rule that lets you 'close in' when you destroy the final tray of a unit could have merit

4 hours ago, Corto said:

In the same vein, a rule that lets you 'close in' when you destroy the final tray of a unit could have merit

I like the idea, as long as it doesnt benefit from aggressive shriekers or drummer.

On 12/3/2018 at 10:39 AM, Bhelliom said:

A rule to let you enter terrain if you're touching it and destroy the unit inside would be interesting, wouldn't it.

On 12/3/2018 at 5:09 PM, Corto said:

In the same vein, a rule that lets you 'close in' when you destroy the final tray of a unit could have merit

Reminds me of advancing in BattleLore. I'm in favor!

On 12/3/2018 at 10:24 PM, Darth Matthew said:

I like the idea, as long as it doesnt benefit from aggressive shriekers or drummer.

Nor Aggressive Cornicen, but yeah.

Anyways, since closing in is a shift and not a march, I don't think there's anything needed to prevent this. Even in the uncommon scenario where your unit overhangs the edge of the eliminated unit, and the opponent had a third unit less than 1 tray away from your unit in that space; the aggressive musician would not affect the shift.

35 minutes ago, kaffis said:

Anyways    , since closing in is a shift and not a march, I don'  t  think th  ere's  anything needed to prevent this.

Would this not prevent Aliana from shift-charging?

14 minutes ago, Datskor said:

Would this not prevent Aliana from shift-charging?

Unless Aliana's close-in shift somehow had a stance, yes, that should be prevented. White stances still require the matching action to have a stance, so cannot be combined with stance-less things like Dispatch Runner-granted attacks or (presumably) close-in shifts.

Edit: It occurs to me, rereading this, that I probably misinterpreted your question.

Aggressive musicians don't apply to shifts because the card text of the upgrade card says "When you perform a [MARCH], treat it as modified by [charge]..." Shifts can absolutely be turned into charges, just not by Aggressive Musicians. Aliana's green stance shift her variety of white stance modifiers are an example of this. (Pardon my pre-edit version of this post that referenced blue; I was misremembering the specifics of her dial)

Isn't her charge a white modifyer?

1 minute ago, Datskor said:

Isn't her charge a white modifyer?

You just barely beat my edit.