At what initiative does the TIE/fo "Null" get placed during setup?
0, as per his pilot token, or 7 as per his pilot ability?
Just thinking back to the 1e ruling regarding Adaptability, where the ship was placed in order of its printed/native pilot skill and the modification applied afterwards...
It helps to post an image of the card in connection with the question, or at least the exact game text of the card: "While you are not damaged, you can treat your initiative value as 7." To me, this means that, at any time he is not damaged (i.e. no hull damage), you are permitted to treat his initiative as 7. This includes setup, as he is not damaged at that point of the game.
Although, this brings up a few completely different questions...
I think in 1e, FFG eventually settled on "pilot abilities are not active until ships are placed." The initial interpretation was that the old Epsilon Ace (Null equivalent) used to deploy at PS 12. However, due to issues with the wording of Lieutenant Dormitz, they had to inactivate pilot abilities prior to set up.
If the last 1e ruling stayed in place, Null would deploy at Init 0. However, that was due to a ruling designed to stop an unrelated, specifically glitched card, and I don't know any reason why folks shouldn't revert to the original 1e interpretation of Epsilon Ace: Init 7.
Anyhow, ask your TO, and maybe we'll get some official clarification sometime.
22 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:It helps to post an image of the card in connection with the question, or at least the exact game text of the card: "While you are not damaged, you can treat your initiative value as 7." To me, this means that, at any time he is not damaged (i.e. no hull damage), you are permitted to treat his initiative as 7. This includes setup, as he is not damaged at that point of the game.
Although, this brings up a few completely different questions...
- What happens if "Null" suffers his first damage card during activation (such as by being tractored onto an asteroid), and he's suddenly the lowest initiative ship on the table?
- In the same vein, given the "permissive" nature of his ability... what happens if, during the activation phase, you start with him as Initiative 7, then spontaneously decide to move him to Initiative 0? Does it mean you have the right to choose exactly when he activates in that phase, merely by announcing what his initiative is at any given time? (Yes, I realize this is kind of a shady thing to do in terms of blocking and all, but it seems like it could be a legitimate strategy).
I'm thinking back to 1e, where Tel Trevura used to sometimes get Damaged Cockpit (PS 0 crit) and might subsequently be "killed" and discard all his current damage cards, somewhere between PS 0 and his printed PS value. In those cases, Tel was out of luck, and couldn't attack. By extension, I'd suppose Null couldn't activate.
// On the other hand, you could view Null's ability as having a trigger: whenever he would activate. Perhaps there's some reason why Null is Init 0 and not Init 1, to prevent issues such as this. Once Init 0 happens in the Activation phase, this causes Null's Initiative to be set to 7 for the rest of the phase. // I'm not sure which is true, but trying to think through some arguments. //
I also wouldn't be surprised to see him errata'd to "Must" instead of "May", like the early errata of Norra Wexley adding an evade result.
(mislead by above post)
No errata needed. There isn't any choice:
I think it deploys on INI 0.
For association:
For reference:
If it can deploy on INI 7 then it is more easy to spell the ability like this: "While you are damaged, treat you INI value as 0".
Based on the rule about abilities being inactive in reserve unless explicitly said otherwise, I would tend to think that would apply for set up as well and as a result he would have to deploy at zero.
After deployment it gets much simpler because his ability is not optional it doesn't say may it just says treat your initiative as 7. So the part about doing a cheeky initiative swap mid round or whatever isn't irrelevant because you can't do that. If you are not damaged it's 7 if you are it's 0. No exceptions.
The one weird spot is where he could theoretically change during activation. Initiative 1 Tugboat tractors him onto a rock with an action and he takes a damage. Based on first edition precedent I would say he just doesn't activate that round. Ships activate when their turn comes up, if somehow you managed to change initiative mid-activation and your new initiative has already passed then you miss your turn and nothing happens.
1 hour ago, sharrrp said:The one weird spot is where he could theoretically change during activation. Initiative 1 Tugboat tractors him onto a rock with an action and he takes a damage. Based on first edition precedent I would say he just doesn't activate that round. Ships activate when their turn comes up, if somehow you managed to change initiative mid-activation and your new initiative has already passed then you miss your turn and nothing happens.
I couldn't remember if there was an official ruling on when a ship activated if its "Pilot Skill" changed to a previously activated pilot skill in first edition, so I looked it up on my rules reference. I didn't find any official ruling from an FAQ, but I did find a reference to an email from Frank Brooks about the subject.
The email ruling was that Epsilon Ace (now Null) would activate next as it had the lowest pilot skill (now initiative).
This is why I think Null is placed at 7.
There is no where in the Initiative rule that says an ability can't modify your Initiative during Setup.
The alternate argument is that a ship is in Reserve during Setup. ( and ships abilities aren't active in Reserve of course ) I can't find anywhere in the rules that it says a ship is in Reserve during Setup. The Reserve Rule says that Card Effects are what put ships in Reserve.
Boba Fett specifically places your ship in Reserve during Setup, so we can assume that you're not there already.
Everyone seems to go back to 1e when they don't know what to do, which I think is wrong. The rules are clear here, and don't really leave anything to doubt.
I concur.
It would have been clearer to have printed init 7 and drop to 0 when damaged, but even without that, I'd say Null places at 7. Things aren't in reserve until they're placed, they're just... not placed.
The only restriction that I found is:
While specifies that "is resolved during the round". The Setup phase is before the first round. Then I aply this rule.
As long as I've searched an "out of game" rule, I cannot found it. The "Reserve" rule is an association from we can extend the rule found in 1e for "out of game" ships (like Adaptability as mentioned in question).
I think that, if it is not specified literally (ex. "During the Setup phase your initiative counts as..."), then the ability does not apply until the ship is in game, and you deploy using your printed value.
1 hour ago, Arachneo said:The only restriction that I found is:
While specifies that "is resolved during the round". The Setup phase is before the first round. Then I aply this rule.
As long as I've searched an "out of game" rule, I cannot found it. The "Reserve" rule is an association from we can extend the rule found in 1e for "out of game" ships (like Adaptability as mentioned in question).
I think that, if it is not specified literally (ex. "During the Setup phase your initiative counts as..."), then the ability does not apply until the ship is in game, and you deploy using your printed value.
I can see what you are saying, and I can see the logic.
However, while initially thinking "Null" would be deployed at Initiative 0, I've read both previous posts and the RRG again, and come to the conclusion that "Null" does deploy at Initiative 7, as you are not damaged during deployment.
That's the best I can come up with.
