This is a friendly reminder for the Empire loving player. Even though your best stuff is gone, all that other OP stuff is gone, too.

You still get:

-A powerful I6 ace voiced by James Earl Jones.

-high efficiency swarms

-3-dice gunships that are extremely maneuverable compared to the rest of the field and awfully cheap for their damage output. They can also carry bombs.

-Hybrid support/combat ships that might actually be good against this field, but almost no one has played them to have a better idea.

What are they facing?

Rebels have X-wings, Y-wings, U-wings, and the Falcon. Nothing there is crushing it, but there is solid stuff for sure. Not above the Empire's Hyperspace power level.

Scum has Boba/Fenn and Scum Falcon stuff. It's awfully good, no doubt. Its,probably the best Hyperspace stuff. There's likely a points rebalancing on the way, though, and Strikers do have some game against those ships, especially when they're not also part of a squad that has to deal with Redline and that garbage.

First Order looks super strong, but their super ace Kylo can get trumped by I6 Vader, and their obvious I6 supporting ships don't really love the massed firepower that Imperials can bring to the table. I think there's a game there.

Resistance gets a mid grade Falcon, a ton of X-wings, big, expensive Bombers, and some A-wings. X-wings are X-wings. They are moderately efficient but can be outplayed. Bombers can do all kinds of stuff, but AGI 1 doesn't love massed firepower, and they're not cheap. I'm not sire abpu t the Falcon yet. NuRey hits super hard like 1.0 Rey, but that ship is a lot less tough than it used to be, as is Poe.

I'm not saying that the Empire hasn't lost something in Hyperspace compared to Extended. I'm not even saying they haven't lost the most good stuff. The thing is, they had the most to lose, and the place they land isn't necessarily that bad. On top of that, a lot of the ships they have left haven't even been extensively explored. Strikers are really flexible in their upgrades, and Reapers have barely been played at all.

It's a brand new world out there!

I agree.

I still think it's tricky. No Vader crew is a bit of a blow for Imperials, as Vermeil with Vader could have been a tasty option.

Vader pilot with Super and FCS, with a naked Scarif base and two Planetary Sentinels is doable with a 6 point bid vs other Vaders, Poe, Rey and Fenn. I don't think anyone's too fussed about winning the bid vs Wedge or any of the three varieties of Han.

That's... not bad, but I don't think its great either. It's the most red dice I think they can get on the board, and it has a little bit of support from that Reaper.

Problem is, any Imp list I can think of always has at least one list it's absolutely going to hate. TIE Swarm will hate traj sim bombers. Low PS Strikers will hate Poe and Rey or Rebel I5+ torp alphas. Vader's probably got to contend with both Boba and Fenn, and his backup's thin on the ground.

Without any of the crew you might actually want to run on it, like Vader or Sloane, the Reaper just feels like a points sink to me.

TIE swarm is still a bit below the power curve, especially now that trajectory simulator is on the table. Imps aren't in a terrible place, but they aren't in a great spot either. Same goes for rebels. Scum feel a lot more comfortable right now (although it's odd that the scum Z-95 isn't legal when it's being released in wave 3).

6 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Vader's probably got to contend with both Boba and Fenn, and his backup's thin on the ground.

This. TIE swarm is countered too hard by other things, and ace builds mean maarek or vader. Both are decent but desperately need something else scary in the list to take the heat off them (and maarek needs coordinate pretty badly too, and is also hurt by debris gambit not being legal). Maybe vynder with tac officer, vader and maarek could work together? Sabacc is a good option for drawing heat but he will die real fast to the un-dodgeable arcs of the star fortress

3 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Same goes for rebels.

I dunno.

With no Whisper, Soontir, Barrage Bombers, Palob, Guri, tugboats, Kavil or 4-LOM the Rebel torp alpha lists start to look really good.

It's one of the very few, if not the only, current meta (ish) lists I think you can run in this format basically untouched. They've lost a lot of their real threats. If you can range control well enough on the Fangs, they kinda hate the torps because it's all down to their green dice vs the 4 reds. Boba's also not the biggest fan of them vs Wedge, because all the mods in the world don't do much on one green die. I've no idea how Rebel alpha will compete with ReyPoe (probably needs a new abbreviation, I really doubt ****-o is going to catch on....), but it could all come to a dice ****fling vs bombers.

They don't like the traditional 8 TIE Swarm, but if you can delete a couple of the big threats in the 6 TIE swarm in the first round, they're not so scary.

7 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Maybe vynder with tac officer, vader and maarek could work together? Sabacc is a good option for drawing heat but he will die real fast to the un-dodgeable arcs of the star fortress

With the crew options they have available, honestly I think I'd go as cheap as possible on the Reaper. Scarif Base with Tac Officer just for the pre-movement co-ordinate on your higher PS ships, and a spare three dice attack if you really need it.

Yeah, Sabacc feels like the best option for a Vader wingman.

But that locks you either into a 3 ship list, or with two TIEs to back you up. Seyn and Gideon maybe? Gideon can shoot last, so there's a good chance he'll get his bonus attack die to effectively make another cheap 3 dice ship.

Or Wampa, if you feel like you handle the Initative mismatch.

Still not great.

You might be right that Vermeil works best as support/economical three dice modded attack. I wonder about running Krennic on him and Optimising Sabacc? He could really hit hard against your fatter, shielded ships like the Resistance Bomber, Boba or any Han variety.

Vader with Supernatural + FCS, Sabacc with Shield Upgrade and Crack Shot, Vermeil with Krennic + Tac Officer?

Leaves an 8 point bid.... I dunno. It's not horrible.

Two of those three would absolutely melt to Rebel alpha torps though......

Yeah the best vader lists feel like vader/vermeil/something, where something is probably sabacc or maarek. Sabacc at i4 really hurts, because he's not cheap and is almost certainly going to be ps-killed. There's a reason I exclusively ran him with VI in 1.0! Maarek isn't amazing either, but if they ignore him long enough for him to get his lock online then he can cause a fair bit of grief (just as sabacc can) and has a fairly solid defense.

The reason I'm leaning towards vermeil in the reaper is simply for attack mods. I agree that he should be cheap - just a tac officer probably. Feroph is also an option, but I'd rather have vermeil pulling heat from vader than Feroph, because Feroph is a less appealing target. Vermeil also has the speed to set up bumps against rebel torp lists if need be - an aileron boost into speed 3 move can get him right up in their face. If you're coming in from an angle (and you shouldn't be jousting them) you might be able to catch them by surprise with that.

Here's my version with Maarek (chosen because he isn't quite as melty as sabacc). Comes in at 98 (electronic baffle on vermeil would be great if it was legal!):
Maarek Stele: Fire Control System, Ruthless
Darth Vader: Supernatural reflexes, fire control system, afterburners (burners really help as a panic button and for endgame fights vs boosting enemies)
Major Vermeil: Tactical officer

I'm probably selling the rebel torp lists a bit short, especially as I haven't had much experience with/against them. Who do you reckon the best third ship is after supernatural torps luke and torps wedge? My gut feeling is just dutch Vander

1 hour ago, gadwag said:

TIE swarm is still a bit below the power curve, especially now that trajectory simulator is on the table. Imps aren't in a terrible place, but they aren't in a great spot either. Same goes for rebels. Scum feel a lot more comfortable right now (although it's odd that the scum Z-95 isn't legal when it's being released in wave 3).

I bet the Scum TIE Swarm is going to be awesome

Wrong

Empire stinks because it's nothing but frail green dice ships

Bleck!

Also, I quite like reapers...but with Palp or Vader crew so that's out

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

I bet the Scum TIE Swarm is going to be awesome

Maybe. They lack the boosting pilot abilities of the Imp TIE swarms. The named pilots are nice, but I'm going to have to see it on the table in the Hyperspace format before I'll accept that they're better than a HowlSwarm.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

I still think it's tricky. No Vader crew is a bit of a blow for Imperials, as Vermeil with Vader could have been a tasty option.

vader crew is pretty high on the list of OP stuff I'm glad to see gone.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Vader pilot with Super and FCS, with a naked Scarif base and two Planetary Sentinels is doable with a 6 point bid vs other Vaders, Poe, Rey and Fenn. I don't think anyone's too fussed about winning the bid vs Wedge or any of the three varieties of Han.

vader and strikers seems good.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

That's... not bad, but I don't think its great either. It's the most red dice I think they can get on the board, and it has a little bit of support from that Reaper.

if you're worried about quantity of dice, imps do it best, a mass of ties or 5 strikers with wampa both bring an extreme amount of dice to the table.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Problem is, any Imp list I can think of always has at least one list it's absolutely going to hate. TIE Swarm will hate traj sim bombers. Low PS Strikers will hate Poe and Rey or Rebel I5+ torp alphas. Vader's probably got to contend with both Boba and Fenn, and his backup's thin on the ground.

So all the lists have difficult matchups that need to be beaten by good flying. This seems good. The hallmark of an OP list is it having no bad matchups.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Without any of the crew you might actually want to run on it, like Vader or Sloane, the Reaper just feels like a points sink to me.

The reaper is one of the only ships in hyperspace with jam. There's worth in the ship right there if it can be sussed out.

9 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The reaper is one of the only ships in hyperspace with jam. There's worth in the ship right there if it can be sussed out  .

It is the only one with the Jam action . Seevor and Firesprays with Jamming Beams have to shoot something (or be shot at in the case of Seevor as another trigger for his pilot ability, must be outside of the bullseye arc of the enemy ship in both cases) to get a Jam of any sort off and Freelance Slicers are not allowed in Hyperspace at the moment so they're out.

18 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I bet the Scum TIE Swarm is going to be awesome

It doesn't have to be a TIE swarm, but yes. Seevor, Ahab, Lando shuttle, Fearless fenn and zealous recruit is 199pts. It's not a polished list, but scum definitely have something good in the "mass of red dice" space. Strikers are going to really struggle with only two greens against the great un-dodgeable resistance bomber arcs.

Also: Swarm tactics comes in the pack with seevor. Rebel torp lists will need to pack r3 astromech if they still want to fire torps, and that means no supernatural.

As for the reaper being a points sink: Vermeil with tac officer is a solid gunship and support craft.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

It is the only one with the Jam action . Seevor and Firesprays with Jamming Beams have to shoot something (or be shot at in the case of Seevor as another trigger for his pilot ability, must be outside of the bullseye arc of the enemy ship in both cases) to get a Jam of any sort off and Freelance Slicers are not allowed in Hyperspace at the moment so they're out.

sure, Seevor seems like he's going to see play, but reapers can blitz up and stop a torp ship from getting a lock to fire with. There's a lot of utility in that which hasn't been explored.

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

sure, Seevor seems like he's going to see play, but reapers can blitz up and stop a torp ship from getting a lock to fire with. There's a lot of utility in that which hasn't been explored.

I wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out that other than Seevor, Reapers are the only ship with any ability to jam off tokens in Hyperspace format. That is potent if the player applies it.

Seevor with a swarm tactics buddy and reapers going for a bump and/or jam will be mean indeed. Rebels can play around it with r3 astromech to completely ignore the jam token as they lose a lock on a useless rock, but that costs them the points that could have made luke supernatural

22 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out that other than Seevor, Reapers are the only ship with any ability to jam off tokens in Hyperspace format. That is potent if the player applies it.

its a fair point, I didn't clarify what about the reaper jam I thought had the most potential.

problem is Seevor is plug-and-play due to cost

the reaper though? It's gotta DO something to be worth stringing along

Unfortunately, that DO thing is something I've found best covered with either Palpatine (on generic) or Vader (on Vermeil) as the two force users gel really well with a ship that's going too fast to care about actions (seriously, dang thing can be REALLY clunky)

So idk, don't think it's worth just bringing a glorified b-wing on its own. Maybe Vizier?

To be sure, a Striker Swarm would be better with a Sloane-Reaper at the heart of it.

But Striker Swarm does add a lot to Empire over the earlier version of the 2nd Edition format. With just Reaper/TIE Fighter/TIE Adv x1, Empire was in a worse place, still.

Of course, I'm always confusing @ficklegreendice with @Magnus Grendel for icon reasons.

Well, if I read this stuff correctly, Empire is the only faction that can't use ordnance (read Proton Torpedoes as 3-dice ordnance is, unfortunately, a joke) in Hyperspace format. So the whole play style is out.

19 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Well, if I read this stuff correctly, Empire is the only faction that can't use ordnance (read Proton Torpedoes as 3-dice ordnance is, unfortunately, a joke) in Hyperspace format. So the whole play style is out.

Scum are also unlikely to play ordnance. Slave I is too expensive (14pts for a proton torpedo?) and Fangs want to be r1 anyway. The different factions are going to have different playstyles in hyperspace and they won't all have the same options. Rebels and imperials certainly have fewer lists than the other factions

Rebel: torps or fat turret + ace (fat turret sounds risky with torps about)
Imperial: swarm (seems bad), vader+miniswarm, striker swarm (hmm), aces+support
Scum: Aces+support, assorted swarm, medium-weight turret+something, triple firespray, ace+miniswarm
First order: Double aces, miniswarm+ace, miniswarm+shuttle, some sort of 3-ship build, mayyyybe a heavy swarm
Resistance: Double aces, triple aces, jousty bombers, fat turret+ace, a-wing swarm, ace+miniswarm, some kind of 3-ship build with a bomber

7 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I'm not saying that the Empire hasn't lost something in Hyperspace compared to Extended. I'm not even saying they haven't lost the most good stuff. The thing is, they had the most to lose, and the place they land isn't necessarily that bad. On top of that, a lot of the ships they have left haven't even been extensively explored. Strikers are really flexible in their upgrades, and Reapers have barely been played at all.

It's a brand new world out there!

Serious question though:

Why should one play Imperials over FO in Hyperspace format?

7 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Serious question though:

Why should one play Imperials over FO in Hyperspace format?

Personal taste is one reason.

You seem to be quite competitive in your leanings, nothing wrong with that, but the list of what is allowed to be used in the Hyperspace format is not permanent and will change. If the options don't fit your tastes at the moment then maybe playing FO would be best for you right now. Just keep an eye on the pdfs when they change, things might switch back the other direction.

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Personal taste is one reason.

You seem to be quite competitive in your leanings, nothing wrong with that, but the list of what is allowed to be used in the Hyperspace format is not permanent and will change. If the options don't fit your tastes at the moment then maybe playing FO would be best for you right now. Just keep an eye on the pdfs when they change, things might switch back the other direction.

I respect personal and thematic reasons, but I was asking from the objective / competitive point of view..

5 hours ago, gadwag said:

The reason I'm leaning towards vermeil in the reaper is simply for attack mods. I agree that he should be cheap - just a tac officer probably     

Having tried Vermeil in a second edition tournament where I ran intimidation and tac officer on him, I hated tac officer on him. The red coordinate is actually helpful in slowing him down and enabling good range control.

He just bled MOV, but his offense is strong, and the odd jam is well worth it.