4 hours ago, Sir Orrin said:

Regardless of what people think about Hyperspace, we need to at least appreciate that there are options. In first edition, there was one format, one meta. Now, have two. I can't wait to fly in both, extended to use all my pretty ships, and Hyperspace to have some competitive fun and maybe try list types that I wouldn't consider in the bigger extended meta. List building has always been a fun challenge, and a big part of this game. The more competitive formats there are, the more variety of list building experiences we will get. I support the hyperspace format, looking forward to trying it.

Well the whole thing about Hyperspace is it takes options away, yes not as many as 2nd edition (already made a few posts on that) but still ships are not in play. I mean if it were a little more open then (such as including all ships from the Movies) then it would have had less flack. Okay I can see not including the Starwing but the TIE Bomber as well?

Sure more competitive formats does break the stagnation in the competitive scene, but the cause for concern is the principle format and that principle format is going to be hyperspace. Now it is too soon to determine what the meta for that format will become, I will admit that. In later waves if they unlock more ships and most of the models were legal in Hyperspace then that would be great. However in current form, it is a very limiting and restrictive format. The option is to have less options, not something I am keen on.

15 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

@Marinealver guess what?

Nobody’s making you play hyperspace format.

Roughly 50% of competitive play should still be extended, and in most areas I’d expect that percentage to be even higher.

2.0 Only and now Hyperspace are the best way to balance all of the factions. Once they release the Clone Wars, I’m certain Wave 4 will see a few more OT ships trickling into the format, whether via expac releases or simply adding them to format-legality like the Rebel Falcon. And eventually (ideally—I don’t know that the sequel trilogy factions will get many more ships after Ep IX) it will all just be one format again, as all the factions are roughly balanced.

The question is if Hyperspace isn’t actually less balanced, since it takes strong ships away from factions while others may keep theirs.

The upgrade lists look like someone played bingo with them. So balance achieved? Hardly imho...

I think this will fraction the community, which is okay in some parts of the world. But where there are already few players, this is justgoing to have a negative impact.

I do agree @ForceM Hyperspace already has had some effect within the community, aka this thread for one. As time goes on Ffg will have to tread carefully with this format or possibly risk making the great community we know become so toxic that no one would want to play x-wing any longer.

Though, i think it is too early to know just yet how thing are planned or will turn out in the months ahead. This will either be a brilliant move on their part, or a complete and utter bust on the scale of the death star blowing up. Time will tell.

In my opinion, hyperspace is both less fun in the short term and critically necessary in the long term. The game would not have survived in a healthy state if extended had been chosen as main format because it shuts out newer players.
Right now we see where the game is going in the mid term (because we see what extended is like). If you want to play extended then you just have to wait. But for a newer player the sheer amount of ships is overwhelming, as is the lack of a proper baseline for the meta.

I'm just sad that FFG gave us longtime punisher fans a taste of the good life, only to ****** one of the most iconic ships in x-wing away from us in hyperspace!

SAD!

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

In my opinion, hyperspace is both less fun in the short term and critically necessary in the long term. The game would not have survived in a healthy state if extended had been chosen as main format because it shuts out newer players.
Right now we see where the game is going in the mid term (because we see what extended is like). If you want to play extended then you just have to wait. But for a newer player the sheer amount of ships is overwhelming, as is the lack of a proper baseline for the meta.

I politely disagree.

A new player that is casual will not play hyperspace, he will buy the ships he fancies most and play casually in extended. Since a lot of iconic ships are not even present in hyperspace.

A new player that would have liked to play extended tournaments would have informed himself of the meta and bought 1-2 strong lists to play.

As it is now, he would have to buy the hyperspace legal competitive stuff, and other stuff that he needs for casual and competitive extended play!

1 minute ago, ForceM said:

I politely disagree.

A new player that is casual will not play hyperspace, he will buy the ships he fancies most and play casually in extended. Since a lot of iconic ships are not even present in hyperspace.

A new player that would have liked to play extended tournaments would have informed himself of the meta and bought 1-2 strong lists to play.

As it is now, he would have to buy the hyperspace legal competitive stuff, and other stuff that he needs for casual and competitive extended play!

I really don't believe that a new player will buy 1.0 ships plus a conversion kit. And that is the only way to get those ships you mention.

The "hyperspace legal competitive stuff" is the only stuff available from a new player's perspective.

As a fan of watching X-Wing streams, this will be such a change for the worse. I mean we will see felt 8000 times the same matchups and squads due to the lack of choice.

This will benso darn boring.

The best player will win, not the best list, you say?

My opinion is that good listbuilding has always been and should always be part of competitive play. This dumbing down will probably not bring anything good...

1 minute ago, ForceM said:

As a fan of watching X-Wing streams, this will be such a change for the worse. I mean we will see felt 8000 times the same matchups and squads due to the lack of choice.

This will benso darn boring.

The best player will win, not the best list, you say?

My opinion is that good listbuilding has always been and should always be part of competitive play. This dumbing down will probably not bring anything good...

I politely disagree.

Extended is already full of many of the same meta lists/ships.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I really don't believe that a new player will buy 1.0 ships plus a conversion kit. And that is the only way to get those ships you mention.

The "hyperspace legal competitive stuff" is the only stuff available from a new player's perspective.

Why? It’s less expensive for most lists than just buying multiples of the new ships...

I snatched a few 1.0 ships that i didn’t have for 7€ a piece a few days ago. For comparison, one of the new A-Wings was 23€, while the Resistance conversion kit was 35€

I can build excellent extended lists for cheaper than if i had to buy hyperspace lists if i am clever!

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I politely disagree.

Extended is already full of many of the same meta lists/ships.

And what do you think will happen when they reduce choice by that much? Fewer dominating lists repeated all over again.

2.0 extended is the most diverse meta i have ever seen in X-Wing. Changing that is a very bad plan!

6 minutes ago, ForceM said:

And what do you think will happen when they reduce choice by that much? Fewer dominating lists repeated all over again.

2.0 extended is the most diverse meta i have ever seen in X-Wing. Changing that is a very bad plan!

Those are some rose-tinted glasses.

The current extended meta is approximately as diverse as previous metas have been (for it's short time, given upcoming points changes).

1 minute ago, ForceM said:

Why? It’s less expensive for most lists than just buying multiples of the new ships...

I snatched a few 1.0 ships that i didn’t have for 7€ a piece a few days ago. For comparison, one of the new A-Wings was 23€, while the Resistance conversion kit was 35€

I can build excellent extended lists for cheaper than if i had to buy hyperspace lists if i am clever!

Because going into a new game is daunting. You can decide which 1.0 ship to buy and how to get the best out of it with a conversion kit. Not someone who just starts out.

I would have no idea where to start with e.g. Armada, and there is much less to buy. X-wing has 3, soon 7, factions.

2 minutes ago, ForceM said:

As a fan of watching X-Wing streams, this will be such a change for the worse. I mean we will see felt 8000 times the same matchups and squads due to the lack of choice.

This will benso darn boring.

The best player will win, not the best list, you say?

My opinion is that good listbuilding has always been and should always be part of competitive play. This dumbing down will probably not bring anything good...

For how long though?

Look, personally I prefer ships that are not yet in hyperspace. They will be eventually, and that waiting time is something I gladly put up with in exchange for a healthier game. The question is of course what I consider to be healthier, and we can discuss that. But even if we have a different understanding of that - the important part is that there is a

21 minutes ago, ForceM said:

due to the lack of choice.

Possible Hyperspace Timeline:

• Boba/Fenn/Craft
• Boba+
• Fenn/Old T/ Han
• Fenn/Fang/Fang/Craft
• Mystery Scum Bombs List
• Mystery Miner Tie List
• Luke/Norra+
• Selfless/Biggs Stuff
• Rebel Trench Run
• Fat Han
• Vader/Vermiel+
• Vader/Strikers
• Striker Swarm
• Howl/Iden Swarm
• Mystery I5-I4 Imperial List
• Rey/Poe+
• Poe/2x T70s
• 4x I5 Rebels
• 4x T70s
• Mystery Rebel Bomber List
• Kylo/QD+
• Kylo/Midnight+
• QD/Midnight+
• Synch Ordinance Swarm
• Mystery Hux List
• Mystery Not-Kylo Silencer List
• Mystery FO Swarm List

Its not all that different from Extended just without a few of the undercosted staples like Punishers, Phantoms, Quadjumpers, Dash, Sloane, Bombers, Sabine, and Hwks etc.

Hyperspace has a ton of potential.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Because going into a new game is daunting. You can decide which 1.0 ship to buy and how to get the best out of it with a conversion kit. Not someone who just starts out.

I would have no idea where to start with e.g. Armada, and there is much less to buy. X-wing has 3, soon 7, factions.

For how long though?

Look, personally I prefer ships that are not yet in hyperspace. They will be eventually, and that waiting time is something I gladly put up with in exchange for a healthier game. The question is of course what I consider to be healthier, and we can discuss that. But even if we have a different understanding of that - the important part is that there is a

Look, if it is a competitive player (and these are what hyperspace is for after all), you will watch and learn the meta before buying anything.

Thats the way it works in any card or Miniature game, if you want to be good, be it extended or hyperspace...

Considering the waiting time, we are talking about a few years?!? Especially if they keep releasing new stuff with each wave of old stuff.

And indeed. I don’t see this format as any healthier as extended. And i dread that they will let extended balance rot because of this nonsense.

31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I really don't believe that a new player will buy 1.0 ships plus a conversion kit. And that is the only way to get those ships you mention.

The "hyperspace legal competitive stuff" is the only stuff available from a new player's perspective.

There's a tonne of p[eople selling 1e job lots on ebay, and the conversion kits are still available. If you are wealthy enough to buy into a game and expect to be able to get literally everything right away, it's pretty easy to do so.

11 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Look, if it is a competitive player (and these are what hyperspace is for after all), you will watch and learn the meta before buying anything.

 Thats the way it works in any card or Miniature game, if you want to be good, be it extended or hyperspace...

And one of these modi is significantly easier to get a good list for than the other. Easier to understand, to fly, to understand the opponents and to actually buy the ships. Which makes hyperspace more beginner friendly.

Sure you say competitive, but xwing has for a long time been a very casual competitive game. Looks like FFG wants to reinforce that with Hyperspace.

13 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Considering the waiting time, we are talking about a few years?!? Especially if they keep releasing new stuff with each wave of old stuff.

Are we though? The game released 3 months ago, we're still converting 1.0 stuff but got a total of what, 18 or so new models in those 3 months? That looks ridiculously fast to me.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

There's a tonne of p[eople selling 1e job lots on ebay, and the conversion kits are still available. If you are wealthy enough to buy into a game and expect to be able to get literally everything right away, it's pretty easy to do so.

That doesn't make it less complicated.

37 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

undercosted staples like. . .Dash

😂

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And one of these modi is significantly easier to get a good list for than the other. Easier to understand, to fly, to understand the opponents and to actually buy the ships. Which makes hyperspace more beginner friendly.

Sure you say competitive, but xwing has for a long time been a very casual competitive game. Looks like FFG wants to reinforce that with Hyperspace.

Are we though? The game released 3 months ago, we're still converting 1.0 stuff but got a total of what, 18 or so new models in those 3 months? That looks ridiculously fast to me.

That doesn't make it less complicated.

I question if it is more beginner friendly to have a format where i just buy a Conversion kit and a ship and can play whatever i want from a faction , from the movies or EU, or a format where i need lists to know what’s legal and what not (because the app is not the solution either), and that tries to heavily limit what you can fly.

Concerning the 1.0 rereleases, if they go on at this pace with them, what are we looking at? Two years? In that time, the game can be done for if this experiment goes bad, which it might!

So I didn't play any competitive X-Wing under v1, the one time I tried it out I went to a store championship and I was literally the only person there not flying the current hot meta list, it was so boring I never went back. I was seriously considering it for v2 until the Hyperspace garbage was announced. Here's how it reads to me:

"Thanks for being a loyal customer & fan of our game, especially one who is also a collector and brought at least one of every ship in X-Wing v1 but here's the thing. We don't really care about your enjoyment of the game because we've already got your money so you're not allowed to use a huge chunk of your collection because we feel that would be unfair to new players and we're going to penalise you for having played for a few years.".

Basically Hyperspace completely killed my interest in looking at the competitive scene, so I'm just going to stick with playing casually with my buddies and have some fun that way.

I know that other folks have different opinions and arguments on this but I just wanted to put on record that for me at least the Hyperspace format is directly responsible for me deciding to not get involved in the competitive side of the game for v2.

1 hour ago, UberMunchkin said:

So I didn't play any competitive X-Wing under v1, the one time I tried it out I went to a store championship and I was literally the only person there not flying the current hot meta list, it was so boring I never went back. I was seriously considering it for v2 until the Hyperspace garbage was announced. Here's how it reads to me:

"Thanks for being a loyal customer & fan of our game, especially one who is also a collector and brought at least one of every ship in X-Wing v1 but here's the thing. We don't really care about your enjoyment of the game because we've already got your money so you're not allowed to use a huge chunk of your collection because we feel that would be unfair to new players and we're going to penalise you for having played for a few years.".

Basically Hyperspace completely killed my interest in looking at the competitive scene, so I'm just going to stick with playing casually with my buddies and have some fun that way.

I know that other folks have different opinions and arguments on this but I just wanted to put on record that for me at least the Hyperspace format is directly responsible for me deciding to not get involved in the competitive side of the game for v2.

Pretty much. I lost a lot of enthusiasm for the cool system open prize wall when I probably lost the ability to use any of the cards for the two factions I'm running in other big tournaments. No jonus. No Guri.

Extended Boba Fett can have IG-88D and Debris Gambit, in addition to Han Gunner. With Coordinate, he can easily roll into combat with an evade, two calculates, and a focus, plus his inbuilt rerolls. He can also have 4-LOM stressing you or Palob stealing your tokens. So, he's good, and popular.

Hyperspace Boba Fett keeps Han Gunner, but can't have Iggy or Debris Gambit, nor Palob or 4-LOM or Tugboats. With coordinate, he can at best roll into combat with focus/lock, or focus/reinforce. He's still good, and presumably popular, but dramatically less good.

The size of the gap between the best list and the median list matters. Too small and what list you bring is irrelevant, too large and nothing is viable but the most dominant meta lists.

Extended still exists. System Opens, by far the largest tournaments, are Extended.

Hyperspace existing killing your interesting in X-Wing is like losing interest in beer because the grocery store started stocking egg nog you don't want.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Hyperspace existing killing your interesting in X-Wing is like losing interest in beer because the grocery store started stocking egg nog you don't want.

It's not killing my interest in X-Wing, as I said I am just playing casually with my friends, it killed my interest in Competitive X-Wing. So I'm still having as much beer as I want, but I'm choosing to not drink any egg nog because it's awful and unpleasant and the company selling it is telling me that if I want to drink their egg nog then I can only do so if I stop drink my favourite beer and whisky.

8 hours ago, UberMunchkin said:

It's not killing my interest in X-Wing, as I said I am just playing casually with my friends, it killed my interest in Competitive X-Wing. So I'm still having as much beer as I want, but I'm choosing to not drink any egg nog because it's awful and unpleasant and the company selling it is telling me that if I want to drink their egg nog then I can only do so if I stop drink my favourite beer and whisky.

Mix the whiskey and the eggnog and see what we get.

I am currently working on a different format to act as the true bridge between 2nd edition and extended formats. The philosophy is All Factions Viable, All Ships Playable, By limiting the pilot roster we can put a big anchor on extended ships to make sure they don't dominate the meta. However if a player has one of the obscure ships from 1st Edition they want to play (i.e. Kihrax) they can still play it. The trick is to figure out which pilot would be appropriate to give the faction the balance it deserves. On ships that have a tendency to run all over the top of the meta such as K-wings. We can simple restrict it to Esege as the only legal pilot.

Is there a list of what generic upgrades are available? I know the OP put the links by faction on his posting. I am just curious about the genetic upgrades.