1 hour ago, Varyag said:

And? You could play a swarm, a swarm with aces, or just aces with just that ship. A pure second edition format is definately viable.

Try playing StarCraft with only probes. It will not work. The whole point about these formats was to make a completive but level playing field and 2nd edition has failed in that which is why Hyperspace is now the 2nd edition 2.0. Sure you can play a game with only one type of ship in a list. But the whole point in miniatures games is that there is options in what models to use, even if the alternative is complete weak sauce it is still an option.

1 hour ago, Varyag said:

And? You could play a swarm, a swarm with aces, or just aces with just that ship. A pure second edition format is definately viable.

Ok, so each faction should only have 1 Ship. No need for FFG to develop any other ships. Just a Tie/ln for Empire, Frang for scum, T-65 for Rebels, Tie/fo for FO, T-70 for resistance, and so forth. Maybe FFG could get the balance 'right' if there were so few ships with so little upgrade possibilities.

6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Try playing StarCraft with only probes. It will not work. The whole point about these formats was to make a completive but level playing field and 2nd edition has failed in that which is why Hyperspace is now the 2nd edition 2.0. Sure you can play a game with only one type of ship in a list. But the whole point in miniatures games is that there is options in what models to use, even if the alternative is complete weak sauce it is still an option.

Done that in the first StarCraft and Brood War. Also did it with SCVs and Drones. Was good for early game chuckles but not much else. TIE/FO is a fair bit more potent than a 'Toss Probe though.

14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Done that in the first StarCraft and Brood War. Also did it with SCVs and Drones. Was good for early game chuckles but not much else. TIE/FO is a fair bit more potent than a 'Toss Probe though.

Agreed, it is better as there is no resource gathering so no "worker" units. But I think we all can make the conclusion that Hyperspace is the replacement for 2nd edition.

Anyways my problem with the formats is that it essentially makes models unplayable, and not just obscure models but also the iconic models from the movie. If I were in charge of the list (and I just might make one call it "The Maw") I would have made at the very least 1 pilot from the conversion kits for all the unreleased models legal. If there is a certain ship I don't think should be very prevalent in the meta (say K-wings) I would just make a unique pilot legal and it wouldn't be the powerhouse one (i.e. Esege Tuketu). If a faction needs more options than 1 pilot for its unreleased expansions (i.e. 1stOrder) I would give them 1 non-unique pilot and 1-unique pilot for their unreleased ships (say TIE Striker). If a model that is unreleased exists in multiple factions then I would pick the faction that it fits best if it doesn't already have an expansion. So no Scum Y-wings Rebel ARC-170 or Rebel Z-95s. But at least the models has not been declared out right banned.

The other option FFG could have done is just made the iconic ships from the OT Movies (B-wings, TIE Interceptors) legal until they finally get their expansions.

3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Ok, so each faction should only have 1 Ship. No need for FFG to develop any other ships. Just a Tie/ln for Empire, Frang for scum, T-65 for Rebels, Tie/fo for FO, T-70 for resistance, and so forth. Maybe FFG could get the balance 'right' if there were so few ships with so little upgrade possibilities.

That sounds interesting. Each faction could start with 1 ship and increase by 1 ship every 3 months or so.

7 hours ago, Varyag said:

That sounds interesting. Each faction could start with 1 ship and increase by 1 ship every 3 months or so.

The only time that happened in X-wing was basically Core set and only core set. In that case I wouldn't consider it much of a meta, and X-wing was still just a fun casual thing among the hordes of other miniature games out there not even competing with the likes of Hordes/Warmchine.

Now X-wing is a much bigger beast having at one point eclipsed Warhammer 40,000 the long time undisputed ruler of table top miniatures. Many other miniatures games have already come and gone (Firestorm Armada and Dysotopian Wars for example). You can't just go back to 1 model per faction and expect to have the same development that X-wing had in its inception. Too any people are playing this including late adopters (I am sort of one as I didn't pick this up until after Wave 3). The game in its current state, a single ship faction would be solved instantly and either it would be a faction of pre-nerf Jumpmasters or a faction of pre-veterans TIE-Defenders. It would either be too good, or too bad for the competitive scene.

Now if you want to do your own format as some sort of escalation, yes that does sound interesting. But that is the odd format not the norm more suited to local tournament scenes bringing their own flavor to the competitive scene. For Premier events, I don't think that would be a good fit.

@Marinealver guess what?

Nobody’s making you play hyperspace format.

Roughly 50% of competitive play should still be extended, and in most areas I’d expect that percentage to be even higher.

2.0 Only and now Hyperspace are the best way to balance all of the factions. Once they release the Clone Wars, I’m certain Wave 4 will see a few more OT ships trickling into the format, whether via expac releases or simply adding them to format-legality like the Rebel Falcon. And eventually (ideally—I don’t know that the sequel trilogy factions will get many more ships after Ep IX) it will all just be one format again, as all the factions are roughly balanced.

2 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

2.0 Only and now Hyperspace are the best way to balance all of the factions. Once they release the Clone Wars, I’m certain Wave 4 will see a few more OT ships trickling into the format, whether via expac releases or simply adding them to format-legality like the Rebel Falcon. And eventually (ideally—I don’t know that the sequel trilogy factions will get many more ships after Ep IX) it will all just be one format again, as all the factions are roughly balanced.

Balance? FFG hasn't done any balancing so far. Balance is just a marketing myth FFG used to sell us a garbage digital app. Balance isn't a legitimate reason for hyperspace format as FFG has clearly shown its not doing anything different than 1.0 for balance.

The gold squadron podcast in their latest episode said their opinion is allowing all ships from existing factions is 'unfair'. Both of the podcasters are excited for the new factions (Separatist, First Order, etc). So their opinion makes sense because they want to purchase and fly the new ships. Its fair in their eyes to restrict the existing factions because they want to play the new factions and not feel like they are disadvantaged.

But what about the flip side of the argument? Is it not unfair to restrict the existing factions? What about players who want to fly ships of their existing faction that have been banned?

Gold Squadron says, just play in a system open. But then they go ahead and say that FFG is really pushing hyperspace format and that most of the tournaments will be hyperspace. So is that 'fair' for players who want extended?

The reason FFG is pushing hyperspace and the reason FFG nerfs the existing factions (bans), the reason FFG allows all the new ships from the new factions, is simply to sell more product. Its not for the health of the game. Its not because FFG cares about new players (where was hyperspace in 1.0 - didn't exist because they only had 3 factions).

I am tired of all of the white knighting excuses for FFG. Be honest and be real. Hyperspace is not about 'balancing the game'. Its not about giving players a better experience. Its only about selling new ships.

Remember when FFG said you could be a single faction. Empire is trash in hyperspace. Want to fly a swarm (because that is the only good empire combo), don't go against trajectory simulated resistance bombers.

9 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

I am tired of all of the white knighting excuses for FFG. Be honest and be real. Hyperspace is not about 'balancing the game'. Its not about giving players a better experience. Its only about selling new ships.

I honestly think you’re overreacting. I really think it’s wise on FFG’s end to have a format that supports brand new players and the brand new factions.

Feel free to keep complaining that FFG wants to *gasp* make money on their product. I’ll just be over here enjoying the game that I get out of the deal, with no qualms about paying a company for a product that they don’t owe me.

11 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I honestly think you’re overreacting. I really think it’s wise on FFG’s end to have a format that supports brand new players and the brand new factions.

Feel free to keep complaining that FFG wants to *gasp* make money on their product. I’ll just be over here enjoying the game that I get out of the deal, with no qualms about paying a company for a product that they don’t owe me.

Brand new players generally aren't going to be playing in tournaments right away. As I said before, stop using that marketing spin. Its not about new players. Its about selling new factions.

I have already paid for my conversion kits. And now, the vast majority of components in the conversion kit are useless in competitive scene. Maybe you are happy to spend heaps of money on a product that you cannot use, but I am not. I want to play my empire ships as I was promised single faction. But apparently FFG doesn't want that (proven over and over again). Its just marketing BS. Just be honest with players and you won't be getting this valid criticism. You wouldn't have gotten my money to convert either which is why they were dishonest to begin with.

2 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Brand new players generally aren't going to be playing in tournaments right away. As I said before, stop using that marketing spin. Its not about new players. Its about selling new factions.

I have already paid for my conversion kits. And now, the vast majority of components in the conversion kit are useless in competitive scene. Maybe you are happy to spend heaps of money on a product that you cannot use, but I am not. I want to play my empire ships as I was promised single faction. But apparently FFG doesn't want that (proven over and over again). Its just marketing BS. Just be honest with players and you won't be getting this valid criticism.

The two, new formats support both new players and veteran. In my area I’ve seen a lot of new players, play in tournaments since 2.0 released and are very excited for a format which fits their skill level and minimal ships roster. Their are two formats. If you want to play all your ships play the System Open series and Deluxe Wave Kits, for newer players they (FFG) has given an alternative route, which if a veteran feels they want to participate in they can to at a restrictive level and those veteran players can be challenged.

FFG is a business which has give both you and I options to play all your ships or a limited amount (two competitive formats) they’re growing the game. Their OP is giving all players options. Here’s an example.

I hate Quadjumpers just ask @Hiemfire, so I can either complain about flying against them, ask for rebalances or decide to find that sweet spot (i.e. Hyperspace) no more complaining I can play enjoy the game and not worry about seeing those things for awhile and wait for the awesomeness of X-WING to grow with the Clone Wars. There will always be options and FFG is offering new and old players each those options how you decide to play is up to you.

7 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

The two, new formats support both new players and veteran. In my area I’ve seen a lot of new players, play in tournaments since 2.0 released and are very excited for a format which fits their skill level and minimal ships roster. Their are two formats. If you want to play all your ships play the System Open series and Deluxe Wave Kits, for newer players they (FFG) has given an alternative route, which if a veteran feels they want to participate in they can to at a restrictive level and those veteran players can be challenged.

FFG is a business which has give both you and I options to play all your ships or a limited amount (two competitive formats) they’re growing the game. Their OP is giving all players options. Here’s an example.

I hate Quadjumpers just as @Hiemfire, so I can either complain about flying against them, ask for rebalances or decide to find that sweet spot (i.e. Hyperspace) no more complaining I can play enjoy the game and not worry about seeing those things for awhile and wait for the awesomeness of X-WING to grow with the Clone Wars. There will always be options and FFG is offering new and old players each those options how you decide to play is up to you.

Hyperspace isn't about new players. If FFG wanted a format for new players, they would simply create a 'newbee' bracket. That exists in so many online games. SC2 for instance, has bronze league. Hyperspace isn't going to be any different in terms of skill level. Newbees are going to be equally trashed as if they were playing in extended. Why are people continuing to use this failed logic of hyperspace is new player friendly. Its not.

FFG isn't giving all of us options here. According to Gold Squadron, FFG is pushing hyperspace and that the majority of events will be hyperspace. When the majority of events are going to be hyperspace, people are mainly going to play hyperspace format because they need to practice. We know how this is going to go already and that is why many of us are voicing our negative criticism now.

As for your complaining about QuadJumpers, what do I do if I don't like playing against Bobba Fett? Can't get away from him in hyperspace.

Well, I will decide to not play hyperspace, and as more and more tournaments move to hyperspace, I will be left with not being able to play. So in the end, I wasted my money converting. If FFG was honest up front, then I wouldn't have wasted my money on converting.

As for more players, not here in New Zealand. We are still at a very low level of players.

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Hyperspace isn't about new players. If FFG wanted a format for new players, they would simply create a 'newbee' bracket. That exists in so many online games. SC2 for instance, has bronze league. Hyperspace isn't going to be any different in terms of skill level. Newbees are going to be equally trashed as if they were playing in extended. Why are people continuing to use this failed logic of hyperspace is new player friendly. Its not.

FFG isn't giving all of us options here. According to Gold Squadron, FFG is pushing hyperspace and that the majority of events will be hyperspace. When the majority of events are going to be hyperspace, people are mainly going to play hyperspace format because they need to practice. We know how this is going to go already and that is why many of us are voicing our negative criticism now.

As for your complaining about QuadJumpers, what do I do if I don't like playing against Bobba Fett? Can't get away from him in hyperspace.

Well, I will decide to not play hyperspace, and as more and more tournaments move to hyperspace, I will be left with not being able to play. So in the end, I wasted my money converting. If FFG was honest up front, then I wouldn't have wasted my money on converting.

As for more players, not here in New Zealand. We are still at a very low level of players.

Just quit if you are that bitter about it. Hyperspace definately does make it easier for new players. Here is how it goes:

New player gets beat by a list. New player then wants to fly that list. New player discovers that they have to buy a conversion kit and serveral ships that are out of print. New player gets frustrated and might just quit.

Sure, 1.0 ships are still fairly easy to find, but that will not last long.

14 minutes ago, Varyag said:

Just quit if you are that bitter about it. Hyperspace definately does make it easier for new players. Here is how it goes:

New player gets beat by a list. New player then wants to fly that list. New player discovers that they have to buy a conversion kit and serveral ships that are out of print. New player gets frustrated and might just quit.

Sure, 1.0 ships are still fairly easy to find, but that will not last long.

How is that different then a new player getting beat by a palp list and discovers they need to purchase the imperial raider in version 1.0? So many of you screamed there is the aftermarket to just buy palp. And now all of you suddenly changed your opinion?

How about this? New player buys a core and a few empire ships. Gets destroyed by bobba fet. Needs to then invest in Scum. Then they get destroyed by First Oder. Then they need to go and buy First Order. They then get destroyed by Old Republic. I guess they go and buy Old Republic. See how this is working out for the new player? They are getting destroyed b/c they are new. They have to spend just as much money on whatever meta list exists because they DONT HAVE ANYTHING. Stop with this nonsense new player garbage.

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

As I said before, stop using that marketing spin. Its not about new players. Its about selling new factions.

Like I said, it supports new players and new factions. You may choose to focus on the former, but I’m absolutely pumped for Resistance and Republic, and honestly Vulture Droids, too.

I’m sorry you can’t find your place to have fun in all this, just stop trying to convince us we don’t have ours.

Just now, SpiderMana said:

Like I said, it supports new players and new factions. You may choose to focus on the former, but I’m absolutely pumped for Resistance and Republic, and honestly Vulture Droids, too.

I’m sorry you can’t find your place to have fun in all this, just stop trying to convince us we don’t have ours.

As I have proven already, its not about new players. Its about selling new ships. Since the existing factions already have ships, its about selling the new factions. Your welcome to have fun with this format, I won't stop you. Just stop promoting the marketing spin that is provably false.

Regardless of what people think about Hyperspace, we need to at least appreciate that there are options. In first edition, there was one format, one meta. Now, have two. I can't wait to fly in both, extended to use all my pretty ships, and Hyperspace to have some competitive fun and maybe try list types that I wouldn't consider in the bigger extended meta. List building has always been a fun challenge, and a big part of this game. The more competitive formats there are, the more variety of list building experiences we will get. I support the hyperspace format, looking forward to trying it.

5 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

Regardless of what people think about Hyperspace, we need to at least appreciate that there are options. In first edition, there was one format, one meta. Now, have two. I can't wait to fly in both, extended to use all my pretty ships, and Hyperspace to have some competitive fun and maybe try list types that I wouldn't consider in the bigger extended meta. List building has always been a fun challenge, and a big part of this game. The more competitive formats there are, the more variety of list building experiences we will get. I support the hyperspace format, looking forward to trying it.

If you own all of the factions, all the ships, and all the upgrades, you probably are ok with hyperspace. Those of us that are a single faction and our faction happens to get the very short end of the stick to the bans, we are screwed. So I can see people such as yourself who will buy everything being ok with hyperspace. Its the single faction people like me who are very dissatisfied. As I said before, since the majority of tournaments are going to be hyperspace, there really isn't the options that you talk about.

1 hour ago, SpiderMana said:

Like I said, it supports new players and new factions. You may choose to focus on the former, but I’m absolutely pumped for Resistance and Republic, and honestly Vulture Droids, too.

I’m sorry you can’t find your place to have fun in all this, just stop trying to convince us we don’t have ours.

Me too. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul specifically.

Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

If you own all of the factions, all the ships, and all the upgrades, you probably are ok with hyperspace. Those of us that are a single faction and our faction happens to get the very short end of the stick to the bans, we are screwed. So I can see people such as yourself who will buy everything being ok with hyperspace. Its the single faction people like me who are very dissatisfied. As I said before, since the majority of tournaments are going to be hyperspace, there really isn't the options that you talk about.

That makes sense. Which factions specifically are you playing? Are there any ships in the next wave or so that will help?

12 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

That makes sense. Which factions specifically are you playing? Are there any ships in the next wave or so that will help?

Empire only. I have already played a 2.0 tournament with TIE adv and a reaper. It wasn't fun. I do like the Reaper but it needs something other than Tie Adv, TIE/ln, and Striker. Right now I am running Rexler + Redline + Vermeil.

I don't think a TIE/ln swarm is viable due to Resistance Bombers. It was viable in 2.0 when it was just 3 factions and of course its pretty non-existent in extended. I don't like TIE/ln swarms anyways. If I were to run a swarm, I would probably want to use a TIE Bomber swarm but of course that is banned too.

Generally Empire Aces like to have the shuttle as a support which is banned. The major arc dodgers from Empire are all banned. As I said, Empire got the short end of the stick on this ban.

Another point I would like to make is that hyperspace doesn't seem to be considering BALANCE when it comes to bans. Its only considering the RELEASE schedule.

30 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Empire only. I have already played a 2.0 tournament with TIE adv and a reaper. It wasn't fun. I do like the Reaper but it needs something other than Tie Adv, TIE/ln, and Striker. Right now I am running Rexler + Redline + Vermeil.

I don't think a TIE/ln swarm is viable due to Resistance Bombers. It was viable in 2.0 when it was just 3 factions and of course its pretty non-existent in extended. I don't like TIE/ln swarms anyways. If I were to run a swarm, I would probably want to use a TIE Bomber swarm but of course that is banned too.

Generally Empire Aces like to have the shuttle as a support which is banned. The major arc dodgers from Empire are all banned. As I said, Empire got the short end of the stick on this ban.

Another point I would like to make is that hyperspace doesn't seem to be considering BALANCE when it comes to bans. Its only considering the RELEASE schedule.

As a fellow Empire main, I feel you. The only difference between us two is I love swarms. But from the perspective of someone not liking swarms, I feel your pain. Not having our good crew options will also hurt. I would simply encourage you to keep brainstorming, and try and find something that works. Also, your point on caring about release schedule over balance is probably right, but I think they can work on both.

3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

If you own all of the factions, all the ships, and all the upgrades, you probably are ok with hyperspace. Those of us that are a single faction and our faction happens to get the very short end of the stick to the bans, we are screwed. So I can see people such as yourself who will buy everything being ok with hyperspace. Its the single faction people like me who are very dissatisfied. As I said before, since the majority of tournaments are going to be hyperspace, there really isn't the options that you talk about.

How is that different from extended? Think about 1.0: at no point in the game post wave 6 were all factions roughly equal. One was always at the bottom of the barrel. I don't expect FFG to drastically improve balance-wise (it's the same guys doing the design), so, in a 7 faction game, one will still be the worst one. Being a single faction player was never an option IMO if you are serious about competitive play.

That being said, I'm not a fan of the Hyperspace idea for 2 reasons:

- Balance reasons : AFAIK FFG has hired no additional designers lately. This means the same guys that were balancing a 3 faction game and releasing 6-8 new ships a year in 1.0 will now be in charge of balancing a 7-faction game and launching significantly more ships per year, across 2 game format, one of which relies on getting it right the first time (if you mess up the Hyperspace ship pool, there isn't really much you can do about it due to the short time span). I just don't see how this all can be done without sacrificing some quality along the way.

- It's not really a choice for many people: how many people live and play in an area that would still be fine if half the people just moved on to playing something else? I'd guess not that many. Therefore, it's not likely IMO for many local communities to have healthy groups for both Extended and Hyperspace at the same time. Most likely one will predominate, which means you kinda need to play that one as well.

Just now, LordBlades said:

Most likely one will predominate, which means you kinda need to play that one as well.

Kinda like how no one plays epic. 😭