29 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Without a doubt. Whatever its faults, Magic has far and away the strongest rule book of any game. For any given situation there's one correct answer, no need for interpretation. At the design level, FFG should have hired a team that does nothing but examine other games, so as to learn from them and avoid the same pitfalls. Alas, they simply have too many properties - all of which appear to be managed independently - to be able to give any one of them the focus they deserve.

I agree, but I'm trying to reconcile this statement of uncertainty with "I can say with absolute authority, it's not the play-testers fault." They simply don't jibe.

Weird. Without a doubt? 25 years in print, yet they still are updating/clarifying the rules to the game. I mean really? 25 years, strongest rule book yet they are still updating and banning cards?

That simply don't jibe.

80 odd Play-Testers.

I always, always giggle when people blame the Play-Testers. Like somehow the Play-Testers are able to force the (Game Design[1],Game Development[4], Producer[`1], Editing[2], etc.) peoples to change or clarify something in the rules they were given. All they are able to do is point out an issue and hope it will be resolved.

Question for all: Witch of the Wild During each turn in which Untamed is not your active house, you may play one Untamed card.

Same rules as Phase shift? I get to play one untamed card, no matter the number of WotW, or if i have 2x WotW, i get to play 2 untamed cards each turn?

16 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Weird. Without a doubt? 25 years in print, yet they still are updating/clarifying the rules to the game. I mean really? 25 years, strongest rule book yet they are still updating and banning cards?

That simply don't jibe.

They update the rules every time they introduce a new mechanic, so typically every set or so, and they do it at release - not via a FAQ some months later. On rare occasions they make sweeping changes that alter the way older cards functions, such as the recent shift of planeswalkers to the legendary type. Bans and restrictions have more to do with balance than actual functionality, so not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.

None of the above is even close to the same as having an unanswerable question about some vague rules interaction, or having to reconcile an interaction that effectively breaks the game. So yes, without a doubt. Out of curiosity, what's your experience with Magic?

Interesting...

If Phase Shift truly only allows the one non-logos card, it would make Wild Wormhole a potentially dead card as well.

On 11/30/2018 at 10:24 AM, 10Ten said:

You keep ignoring the rules

Page 5

Action Cards

When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s “Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible , places the card in their discard pile.

So yeah according to the written rules.

Play Phase Shift, play non-Logos card, place Phase Shift into the discard pile

No matter what font size or color you use, or how much you yell how clear the rules are, it is up to reasonable thinking players to use common sense in deciding what the designers were intending with the text of the rule. We can find an onslaught of cards with play abilities like "Archive a card". "Steal 1 Aember". "Deal 2 damage to each creature". In fact, you used a few of these straightforward texts in your own examples that failed to prove similar to the current question. As someone else has already pointed out, "this turn" was specifically added to this card, and "this turn" does not show up on all those others examples. SO let use a common sense conclusion on why the designers decided to add "this turn". If they intended as you claim, that the player play the card immediately, logically they would just use the wording they have already established with 95% of the other cards. "Play one non-logos card". But since for this edge case, they intentionally added "this turn", it must be different then the other 95% of the cases. They must have intended the card to be played anytime this turn.

13 hours ago, msieder said:

No matter what font size or color you use, or how much you yell how clear the rules are, it is up to reasonable thinking players to use common sense in deciding what the designers were intending with the text of the rule. We can find an onslaught of cards with play abilities like "Archive a card". "Steal 1 Aember". "Deal 2 damage to each creature". In fact, you used a few of these straightforward texts in your own examples that failed to prove similar to the current question. As someone else has already pointed out, "this turn" was specifically added to this card, and "this turn" does not show up on all those others examples. SO let use a common sense conclusion on why the designers decided to add "this turn". If they intended as you claim, that the player play the card immediately, logically they would just use the wording they have already established with 95% of the other cards. "Play one non-logos card". But since for this edge case, they intentionally added "this turn", it must be different then the other 95% of the cases. They must have intended the card to be played anytime this turn.

common sense =/= what the designers were intending with the text of the rule.

We have no idea if only one person wrote the text on the cards or if six people wrote the text on the cards.

How many other Play abilities have "this turn" in their text? One? Were those few cards miswritten or?

Me? Personally? I'll ask my opponent what they want it to be and go with that. Why? Because I don't need to win in order to enjoy the game.

52 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Me? Personally? I'll ask my opponent what they want it to be and go with that. Why? Because I don't need to win in order to enjoy the game.

I don't need to win to enjoy a game either, but I do enjoy a game more if we both feel the rules are clear.

I'm not sure winning enters into the scenario. Some of us just want to play with rules that aren't vague, nebulous, or otherwise require regular designer intervention.

1 hour ago, Palpster said:

I don't need to win to enjoy a game either, but I do enjoy a game more if we both feel the rules are clear.

Hopefully, FFG will make certain cards more clear

The dual keys to clarity are comprehensive rules and universal card templating.

4 hours ago, 10Ten said:

common sense =/= what the designers were intending with the text of the rule.

We have no idea if only one person wrote the text on the cards or if six people wrote the text on the cards.

How many other Play abilities have "this turn" in their text? One? Were those few cards miswritten or?

Me? Personally? I'll ask my opponent what they want it to be and go with that. Why? Because I don't need to win in order to enjoy the game.

The more you pull on that logic thread, the more you make no sense. You are the one being a rule nazi about text that appears on the card, rather than accepting the likely common sense interpretation. So if "winning" isnt important to you, than the common sense interpretation of the text should be good enough, and all players just move on with their lives. But instead you choose to go down the rabbit hole that it was possible the text wasnt at all what the designers intended, but instead a mishap with printing. So now all of us have to descend into madness wondering if every text on every card was written correctly as intended, or some mad printer mishap. And instead of finishing a game, we slink into a pool of slobbering confusion.

14 cards feature "this turn" in the text, 9 cards feature "next turn", 17 cards feature "for the remainder of the turn"

Quote

Name	Text	🏠	Type
Loot the Bodies	Play: For the remainder of the turn, gain 1[A] each time an enemy creature is destroyed.	Br	Action
Warsong	Play: For the remainder of the turn, gain 1[A] every time a friendly creature fights.	Br	Action
Brothers in Battle	Play: Choose a creature. For the remainder of the turn, each friendly creature of that house can fight.	Br	Action
Follow the Leader	Play: For the remainder of the turn, each friendly creature may fight.	Br	Action
Control the Weak	Play: Choose a house on your opponent's identity card. Your opponent must choose that house as their active house next turn.	Di	Action
Red-Hot Armor	Play: Each enemy creature with armor loses all of its armor until the end of the turn and is dealt 1[D] for each point of armor it lost this way.	Di	Action
Foggify	Play: Your opponent cannot use creatures to fight on their next turn.	Lo	Action
Library Access	Play: For the remainder of the turn, each time you play another card, draw a card.	Lo	Action
Phase Shift	Play: You may play one non-Logos card this turn.	Lo	Action
Dimension Door	Play: For the remainder of the turn, any [A] you would gain from reaping is stolen from your opponent instead.	Lo	Action
Interdimensional Graft	Play: If an opponent forges a key on their next turn, they must give you their remaning [A].	Lo	Action
Scrambler Storm	Play: Your opponent cannot play actions on their next turn.	Lo	Action
Soft Landing	Play: The next creature or artifact you play this turn enters play ready.	Ma	Action
Shield of Justice	Play: For the remainder of the turn, each friendly creature cannot be dealt damage.	Sa	Action
Take Hostages	Play: For the remainder of the turn, each time a friendly creature fights, it captures 1[A].	Sa	Action
Miasma	Play: You opponent skips the "forge a key" step on their next turn.	Sh	Action
Treasure Map	Play: If you have not played any cards this turn, gain 3[A]. For the remainder of this turn, you cannot play cards.	Sh	Action
Full Moon	Play: For the remainder of the turn, gain 1[A] each time you play a creature.	Un	Action
Scout	Play: For the remainder of the turn, up to 2 friendly creatures gain Skirmish. Then, fight with those creatures one at a time.	Un	Action
Stampede	Play: If you used 3 or more creatures this turn, steal 2[A].	Un	Action
Fogbank	Play: Your opponent cannot use creatures to fight on their next turn.	Un	Action
The Warchest	Action: Gain 1[A] for each enemy creature that was destroyed in a fight this turn.	Br	Artifact
Lash of Broken Dreams	Action: Keys cost +3[A] during your opponent's next turn.	Di	Artifact
Lifeward	Omni: Sacrifice Lifeward. Your opponent cannot play creatures on their next turn.	Di	Artifact
Spectral Tunneler	Action: Choose a creature. For the remainder of the turn, that creature is considered a flank creature and gains, "Reap: Draw a card."	Lo	Artifact
Sniffer	Action: For the remainder of the turn, each creature loses elusive.	Ma	Artifact
Combat Pheromones	Omni: Sacrifice Combat Pheromones. You may use up to 2 other Mars cards this turn.	Ma	Artifact
Crystal Hive	Action: For the remainder of the turn, gain 1[A] each time a creature reaps.	Ma	Artifact
Epic Quest	Action: Archive each friendly Knight creature in play.\nOmni: If you have played 7 or more Sanctum cards this turn, sacrifice Epic Quest and forge a key at no cost.	Sa	Artifact
Potion of Invulnerability	Omni: Sacrifice Potion of Invulnerability. For the remainder of the turn, each friendly creature cannot be dealt damage.	Sa	Artifact
Sigil of Brotherhood	Omni: Sacrifice Sigil of Brotherhoold. For the remainder of the turn, you may use Sanctum creatures.	Sa	Artifact
Ritual of the Hunt	Omni: Sacrifice Ritual of the Hunt. For the remainder of the turn, you may use friendly Untamed creatures	Un	Artifact
Skippy Timehog	Play: Your opponent cannot use any cards next turn.	Lo	Creature
Deipno Spymaster	Omni: Choose a friendly creature. You may use that creature this turn.	Sh	Creature
Smiling Ruth	Reap: If you forged a key this turn, take control of an enemy flank creature.	Sh	Creature
Looter Goblin	Reap: For the remainder of the turn, gain 1[A] each time an enemy creature is destroyed.	Br	Creature
Blypyp	Reap: The next Mars creature you play this turn enters play ready.	Ma	Creature
Protectrix	Reap: Fully heal a creature. If you do, that creature cannot be dealt damage for the remainder of the turn.	Sa	Creature
Horseman of War	Play: For the remainder of the turn, each friendly creature can be used as if they were in the active house, but can only fight.	Sa	Creature
Rogue Ogre	At the end of your turn, if you played exactly one card this turn, Rogue Ogre heals 2 damage and captures 1A.	Br	Creature
Giant Sloth	You cannot use this card unless you have discarded an Untamed card from your hand this turn.\nAction: Gain 3[A].	Un	Creature
Transposition Sandals	This creature gains "Action: Swap this creature with another friendly creature in the battleline. You may use that creature this turn."	Lo	Upgrade
Rocket Boots	This creature gains "Fight/Reap: If this was the first time this creature was used this turn, ready it."	Lo	Upgrade
Brain Stem Antenna	This creature gains, "After you play a Mars creature, ready this creature and for the remainder of the turn it belongs to house Mars."	Ma	Upgrade

11 minutes ago, Poposhka said:

14 cards feature "this turn" in the text, 9 cards feature "next turn", 17 cards feature "for the remainder of the turn"

Nice data mining work. Thanks!!

50 minutes ago, msieder said:

The more you pull on that logic thread, the more you make no sense. You are the one being a rule nazi about text that appears on the card, rather than accepting the likely common sense interpretation. So if "winning" isnt important to you, than the common sense interpretation of the text should be good enough, and all players just move on with their lives. But instead you choose to go down the rabbit hole that it was possible the text wasnt at all what the designers intended, but instead a mishap with printing. So now all of us have to descend into madness wondering if every text on every card was written correctly as intended, or some mad printer mishap. And instead of finishing a game, we slink into a pool of slobbering confusion.

Because this

card isn't

THE GOLDEN RULE ing (If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of the rules, the text of the card takes precedence.)

this rule

ACTION CARDS When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s “ Play :” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

it is GOLDEN RULE ing (If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of the rules, the text of the card takes precedence.)

this Rule of the game

STEP 2: CHOOSE A HOUSE
Each KeyForge deck is composed of three different houses, which are shown on the identity card. During this step, the active player chooses one of those three houses to activate, making it the active house for the remainder of the turn. This active house determines which cards the active player can play, discard from their hand, and use this turn.

• After choosing a house, the active player has the option to take all cards in their archives and add them to their hand. (See “Archives” in the Glossary.)
• If a player controls a card that does not belong to one of the three houses in their deck, they may (if they desire) choose and activate that house during this step instead of one of the three houses in their deck.

29 minutes ago, Poposhka said:

14 cards feature "this turn" in the text, 9 cards feature "next turn", 17 cards feature "for the remainder of the turn"

And how many of the 14 cards featuring "this turn" have it as a Play ability like, Play : You may play one non-Logos card this turn. ?

1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

And how many of the 14 cards featuring "this turn" have it as a Play ability like, Play : You may play one non-Logos card this turn. ?

15 hours ago, Poposhka said:

Phase Shift	Play: You may play one non-Logos card this turn.	Lo	Action	⬤	0
Soft Landing	Play: The next creature or artifact you play this turn enters play ready.	Ma	Action	⬤	0
Treasure Map	Play: If you have not played any cards this turn, gain 3[A]. For the remainder of this turn, you cannot play cards.	Sh	Action	⋆	1
Stampede	Play: If you used 3 or more creatures this turn, steal 2[A].	Un	Action	⋆	1

Alrighty then, now lets gander at these 4 cards.

Treasure Map and Stampede both use 'this turn' as after effects. " If you have not played any cards this turn," "If you used 3 or more creatures this turn".

Only Soft Landing 'this turn' as a before effect "The next creature or artifact you play this turn"

Which is what I said

22 hours ago, 10Ten said:

How many other Play abilities have "this turn" in their text? One? Were those few cards miswritten or?

12 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Alrighty then, now lets gander at these 4 cards.

Treasure Map and Stampede both use 'this turn' as after effects. " If you have not played any cards this turn," "If you used 3 or more creatures this turn".

Only Soft Landing 'this turn' as a before effect "The next creature or artifact you play this turn"

Which is what I said

I've lost track here, what are you trying to say?

4 hours ago, Palpster said:

I've lost track here, what are you trying to say?

You’re only just now losing track?

Seems to me if Phase Shift used wording similar to this:

Play: The next creature or artifact you play this turn enters play ready.

then it would have been clear. Example:

Play: The next creature or artifact you play this turn may be a non-Logos card.

With that wording it would be clear that you can play Phase Shift multiple times for multiple cards.

It is funny that this debate continues to rage on when in fact the issue is just simple ambiguity. We should all just agree it's ambiguous and wait for a ruling - because it is. Intent doesn't matter when it is not explicitly defined - unless it's an RPG when the GM can just make the call however he wants.

6 hours ago, 10Ten said:

Alrighty then, now lets gander at these 4 cards.

Treasure Map and Stampede both use 'this turn' as after effects. " If you have not played any cards this turn," "If you used 3 or more creatures this turn".

Only Soft Landing 'this turn' as a before effect "The next creature or artifact you play this turn"

Which is what I said

It is amazing that you have no trouble discerning what "this turn" means on these other examples. This is getting ridiculous. lol

Just confirmed by the man himself on FB 😄

Apparently I’ve gone senile and can’t remeber posting here already

15 hours ago, Adanaz said:

Just confirmed by the man himself on FB 😄

I really wish they would post this stuff in the FAQ at the official KeyForge forums instead of expecting people to use Facebook.

He said in another email that it will be put into an FAQ in the near future