What I find confusing now is how my simple question of "Do we have a proper list of honorifics for a writing project" Somehow grew into this.... debate is too strong a word....

INCERT CONFUSION *top of head gets removed, word CONFUSION is incerted* Done

1 hour ago, Ni Fang said:

What I find confusing now is how my simple question of "Do we have a proper list of honorifics for a writing project" Somehow grew into this.... debate is too strong a word....

INCERT CONFUSION *top of head gets removed, word CONFUSION is incerted* Done

Wrong spelling of insert... unless you're talking about paper certificates, in which case it's an unsual verb-form of the noun Cert (short for certificate)...

which creates some rather odd visuals...

English is not my first language; I get common words mixed up {For example I replace the Z in some words with an S}

5 hours ago, Ni Fang said:

English is not my first language; I get common words mixed up {For example I replace the Z in some words with an S}

Did you learn from Britain or America? Americans sometimes put "Z"s in words where it isn't normally expected. ( ) Also, "honour" is the word to use, IMAO.

22 hours ago, Ni Fang said:

English is not my first language; I get common words mixed up {For example I replace the Z in some words with an S}

That's no biggie - Aussies, kiwis, US-ians, and Canuks all have variations on spelling that differ from the Queens. More in the US than the others.

The hard/soft c is triky even for native speakers - it's legacy spelling from when English was phonetic, and K, C, and S all had unique sounds.

Which brings to mind an adventure hook... we know that Kanji are used in Rokugan... but each clan might very well have different subsets in use, and there might be multiple sets of kana as well...

That's an interesting thought. It might even be the case that at least part of the 4e clan ciphers are related to that.

Kinda like Hiragana and katagana?

19 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Kinda like Hiragana and katagana?

It's quite possible that each clan might have its own kana system.

See, Hirigana is derived by simplification of kanji which either made the indicated sound, or which started with the indicated sound. Not unlike how hieroglyphs were used phoneticly in both Mayan and Egyptian. You have a symbol, it's name is ___, so you use it for the sound.

Correct spellings of the transliterations, BTW: hiragana, katakana, kana.

Back in the day there used to be a split between "High Rokugani" and "Low Rokugani," where "High" was used in official capacities, in courtly situations, and the preferred "artistic" language, while "Low" was your everyday use language, both spoken and written, and then there were Clan "dialects" in addition. (IIRC, Crane dialect was the official dialect of the Imperial Court.) All samurai would know both as well as their clan dialect, and use either depending on the time and place, but among non-samurai usually only the highly educated, servants, and clergy would likely know High Rokugani.

In "my" Rokugan, I always imagined written High Rokugani used man'yōgana for kana ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man'yōgana ), while Low didn't quite use hiragana or katakana yet but instead the "in between" kana precursors that were simplified forms of man'yōgana, then each clan had their own stylizations and/or simplifications.

Clan ciphers were a different beast, because rather than dialects the ciphers were more a "secret language" either hidden in seemingly benign text, or simply look like indecipherable nonsense to anyone who didn't know the cipher. Those both likely use kanji/kana in unorthodox ways that would only hold meaning to those who knew the cipher. In one adventure I ran I came up with the idea that the cipher was based on knowing a number sequence and the stroke order of the kanji used in a text, and "pulling out" those strokes to reveal the secret message.

On 12/24/2018 at 2:35 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

Honorifics aren't the worst. After all, to some degree they would be conveying a certain amount of cultural information that well... couldn't be conveyed by having things be straight English. Except the problem is that they can't help themselves in using "kun" and "chan" given that these are the ones people hear in anime constantly. The thing is-- those animes are entirely about elementary school students to young adults who when using those words are putting on a childish demeanor.

The whole origin of "chan" in the first place is that it is difficult for children to make the "s" sound and so Japanese children, at least to Japanese ears, are likely to replace "s" with "ch". So "chan" is really just a way of saying "san", but using baby talk. It is basically like a person speaking english replacing their "r"s with "w"s to sound like an infant, just somewhat more culturally acceptable.

Well, culturally acceptable among modern Japanese and those through teenagers and parents talking to their children and such. And, for whatever reason, baby talk between couples is considered sexy-- even more so in Japan than in America/Europe, but it at least used to be a big thing in America/Europe too.

Samurai should absolutely, positively never use those honorifics when speaking with other samurai, especially with those of other clans. It should be limited entirely between "san", "sama", "dono" and "ue". So people's favorite Japanese honorifics that they picked up from anime should realistically be entirely off the table and incorporating them at all is having the characters talk like little kids.

And the "Rokugan isn't Japan" defense isn't very solid-- for if that is the case, why are you force the use of Japanese into the setting at all in the first place?

Another point where there could be a legitimate way of inserting Japanese words if we are to give the impression that the setting is being translated from Japanese? Well, there are multiple ways of saying "I" and "you" in Japanese that absolutely, positively could not translate to English. And so much about how a character would see their relationship with the other person could be expressed by which version of "I" and "you" they chose to use. If a writer had a grasp on this and decided to explain and then utilize this.

Another one would be the fact that within Japanese one can eliminate the subject from a setting entirely. And this can leave what one is saying way more ambiguous than someone speaking in English. In fact, even Japanese texts that are only maybe 100 years old can be difficult for modern Japanese to entirely decipher and translate because English sentence construction fundamentally requires being far more clear and concrete with what one intends to convey.

In cases like these where if one was translating actual Japanese speech, one would have to either add or delete information from the actual utilized words in order to produce a translation that best conveys the meaning that the speech would convey, then it would be appropriate to use the foreign words and/or add additional explanation that would be informative to the reader. A good writer would do this.

But simply using the one word the writer knows in Japanese 100% exactly the way in which the English word could and would and should have been used. That just singularly signals a complete ignorance of the language and is complete hack writing.

And it would be different, perhaps, if the first line of dialogue in any given story was properly translated to Japanese and then the rest of the dialogue in the scene was in English as to signal to the reader that the dialogue in the scene is being translated for their convenience. But then that would have to hold true for whatever the first line of dialogue was.

But to just insert "hai" every time a character says "yes" when using "hai" instead of "yes" adds no information to the story, gives the reader no further understanding or education about the Japanese language and it is the only word in the entire story that is translated to Japanese when nothing about the dialogue in the story shows any sign that there was any concept in the head of the writer to figure out how a Japanese person would have said this line and then translated it-- and mind you, I am not saying you need to do the last of those, only that it would have gone a long way towards justifying "leaving" and of the words in the story "in the original language"...

It is hack writing. It is a writer basically announcing that "this is the singular word I bothered to learn in Japanese, so I am going to abuse it like crazy and insert it everywhere in a desperate attempt to make this setting seem more Japanese." It isn't earnest, it isn't honest-- is stinks of pathetic desperation.

The only thing that is worse is when one of the characters in dialogue says something in japanse-- then explains it in English. Because that 100% indicates that NO ONE in the setting is EVER using Japanese, that everyone in the setting only speaks in English and has only ever spoken in English and any Japanese in the setting is even weird window dressing to the characters in universe with no explanation as to where it came from or why we are told that the Japanese is "Rokugani" when obviously no one actually uses that language.

Because if the characters within that setting were using that language at all-- ever-- even had the slightest knowledge of that language, they would not have to say something within their language and then immediately repeat it to explain its meaning. Imagine someone saying to you.

"The pot calling the kettle black. That means the pot calling the kettle black."

Not only would no one ever say that, it is a nonsensical thing to say-- one's repetition of the phrase did not add any additional information.

So when a writer has a character do this, it lampshades the fact that no one in the setting is speaking Japanese or "Rokugani" at all, even within the writer's head they never considered for a second that the characters were using any other language but English.

The proper way to do this would be to have the character say something, either translate the phrase when they say it even if it is in fact a Japanese phrase you looked up, or don't translate it and then outside of dialogue add the translation for the reader. But when one literally has the character "translate" what they just said in their native language to presumably their native language, the whole thing falls apart.

Again-- another big sign one is reading something done by an entirely hack writer.

Totally agree on over-use of -chan, -kun. Though I'd add some areas they can be used (used on people you've known since their early childhood for example), but not many. For the most part they should definitely go unused.

You're using Japanese in the first place, because Rokugan is inspired by Japan, and it is used to add a flavour artifact. Why call DnD entities demons/angels, why call a dragon Tiamat, why have golems/naga/trolls/oni/dragons/[insert any type of named creature here] when you could use/make your own new entity type, or name, that conveys personal flavour, and is something you can define to be what you want? Because the artifacts from real world history/culture/language add flavour to the setting, as well as act as shorthand symbology connecting your invention with the concept people already know/understand, even when those two things are not identical.

The ambiguity of Japanese is something that makes roleplaying in Rokugan difficult, because a lot of its cultural mores and traditions, like poetry, and asking questions without actually asking questions, takes advantage of that language's potential, and is trickier to impossible in English. It's actually an argument to include Japanese, particularly at the table, by groups who know what they're doing, for such things when possible. Demands caution however, and I'd like it if we could see more research put into the Japanese used.

I agree that using a word only like it can be used in English is, if not hack-y, is lazy (either personally, or due to apathy that you have no expectations of the audience).

They're definitely using a pseudo-Japanese as their language, with the assumption of a translation convention. That's just a fact. Rokugani is not English. When they explain stuff, sometimes they do it in a way that isn't as straightforward as your example (and in fact, they're rarely explaining an idiom, so much as a definition, so that example is flawed in that way as well), but yeah, it comes off as lazy when they do it. They're doing it for the reader's benefit, but can't find a way to do it naturally, and apparently aren't allowed, or are too mindless (I really hope it's the former) to use footnotes.

Some of the writers for the L5R fiction are definitely better than others. 'Hai' is definitely one of the more obvious examples of a word they should either use for its broader uses as well, or stop using, because just using it as 'yes' is lazy. Despite all that though, it undeniably adds a flavour to the text lending itself to a specific aesthetic, no differently than the word samurai, or katana, or the way Rokugani dress in kimono, add to a certain aesthetic, flavour, and feel of their universe.

On 12/26/2018 at 9:25 PM, AK_Aramis said:

Except that, from First Edition, L5R is a Samurai game - and Samurai existed nowhere except Japan†. John Wick explicitly linked Rokugan to Pre-Tokugawa Japan.

He did include the weasel words, "Rokugan is Not Japan"... but John also has said that people should play L5R as Japanese as they want it to be. John always includes such weasel words. Saves on litigation later.

†Noting that Parts of Manchuria and Korea have, at various points, been part of Imperial Japan. And not just in WW II.

Weasel words is harsh. Sure he's using them to be vague, but in the creation of a game entity where vague-ness is commonly accepted, due to variations from table-to-table. Also, how linked 1st ed is to Japan isn't the greatest technique for analysis of the current state of the game. Japan and 1st ed didn't have female daimyo common enough that a third or more of the family daimyo in the current game being female can be associated with either of them. Let alone the same-sex marriage according to sexual preferences being something matchmakers care about element of the setting, or the samurai-ko being bushi is common element, or the men marrying into women's families widely based on personal status element.

On 12/30/2018 at 11:42 PM, AK_Aramis said:

Anyone with a passing familiarity with Japanese will immediately know that cicada isn't Japanese... none of the standard tramsliteration schemes have lone c 's, only ch 's.

The Japanese for it is higurashi ....

For sure. But most of my players have no familiarity with Japanese whatsoever, and English is not their first language either. I'm just saying, weird-looking words in the fictions are going to happen. If they matter to the reader and they aren't explained, that reader will look them up.

double post

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 4:02 AM, AK_Aramis said:

Which brings to mind an adventure hook... we know that Kanji are used in Rokugan... but each clan might very well have different subsets in use, and there might be multiple sets of kana as well...

Well, Rokugan is certainly big enough, and the various clans' peasant families not mobile enough, for detectable accents to diverge over a 1000 year period.

Whilst a Mandarin or Queen's English 'official speech/spelling' makes sense, you're going to get dramatic shifts in language, idioms and - especially if writing is phonetically based - the written word across the breadth of the empire.

It's another thing the Composition and Culture skills might be relevant for, I guess.

Well, some of my qwuestions have been answered. I managed to get a look inside the pages of the book today. The timeline goes from dawn of the empire up to the spring of 1123. 1123 in the old timeline is when the Scorpion Coup took place. BUT its possible it is going to still happen some point during 1123 according to the timeline apparently Kachiko is planning something and her affair with the Crane champion is part of it

I like these kinds of puzzles

On a content note, are there new Kiho in the EE book? Anyone have a list (with short description) of them? Any good water or earth ones for my Togashi to think about???

I believe there's only two new techniques in the book from what people have told me, an Imperial Shuji and a Kolat Shuji.

I think people are missing the most important part of the book, which is that Australia is now canon 🤣

(The Mantis NPC is chapter 2 is planning to visit a land of vast deserts, endless coral reefs, and creatures which drop from trees )

Looks like EE hit drivethru!!

Here is the link. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/264319/Legend-of-the-Five-Rings-Emerald-Empire

Wow, that is about 4 hours after it finally arrived in my FLGS in the UK.

for those with either the PDF or the physical book, I just got the PDF myself, looking over the map of Rokugan, the PDF version is very blurry, I can barely make out names, is it the same with the physical book? I also don't see many villages in the phoenix lands, just one shrine from what I can make out and one other location that I can't even read the name of, because of the aforementioned blurriness.

1 hour ago, Suimaru said:

for those with either the PDF or the physical book, I just got the PDF myself, looking over the map of Rokugan, the PDF version is very blurry, I can barely make out names, is it the same with the physical book? I also don't see many villages in the phoenix lands, just one shrine from what I can make out and one other location that I can't even read the name of, because of the aforementioned blurriness.

The locations marked on the map in Emerald Empire are all the ones that are described in the book. This seems to be a recurring theme. Each product that includes the map has the locations that are discussed or mentioned in it marked.

Of course, to re-complicate matters, the map is done in English, but the index is in Rokugani...

4 hours ago, Suimaru said:

for those with either the PDF or the physical book, I just got the PDF myself, looking over the map of Rokugan, the PDF version is very blurry, I can barely make out names, is it the same with the physical book? I also don't see many villages in the phoenix lands, just one shrine from what I can make out and one other location that I can't even read the name of, because of the aforementioned blurriness.

don't know about EE, but the map in the corebook PDF set is also low-quality.

On 1/15/2019 at 9:47 AM, Daigotsu Max said:

I think people are missing the most important part of the book, which is that Australia is now canon 🤣

(The Mantis NPC is chapter 2 is planning to visit a land of vast deserts, endless coral reefs, and creatures which drop from trees )

Hey, I worked on that! Glad someone noticed. Minor note, the text of EE does say a "rumored land to the south" So is it actually there? Unconfirmed. But still, I'm glad someone noticed!

1 hour ago, KRKappel said:

Hey, I worked on that! Glad someone noticed. Minor note, the text of EE does say a "rumored land to the south" So is it actually there? Unconfirmed. But still, I'm glad someone noticed!

Awesome, loved the reference! And the general entry as well. I love how Kyuden Gotei feels really different now.

And in a later chapter there are references to an Africa equivalent. I'm excited to see what lies beyond Rokugan in this edition!