I see plenty of mistakes being made at first, and there are definitely things that people are unsure of how they properly work. I rarely see fundamental errors against the rules though, and a lot of the errors I see are things people know but forgot. How to roleplay the setting though, most new players are clueless about that. How to deal with someone of superior status who has it in for you; how to conduct an investigation when evidence doesn't matter, testimony means everything and people are being sincere rather than truthful; how to provoke an opponent into a duel or how to avoid getting provoked (while still keeping your honor intact) - that sort of thing perplexes every new player I've ever had at my table. And they can't learn that from the core book, for the most part.

14 hours ago, Ni Fang said:

Is there a list of honorifcs ? *is working on ner groups story version of their party's adventure and wants to get the honorfics correct*

No, there is not. I'm not hugely surprised at this, because for the most basic use, you can get away with using two (-san, -sama), and there isn't a specific etiquette section of the book, which is where that kind of information would fit. I am a little disappointed however, because the fact -sensei can be used as an honorific or title, and -dono, among other nuances, would have been nice to see published to help add verisimilitude to any fiction I end up writing for games.

How is the Otomo Schemer is looking, out of curiosity? Does it seem interesting?

17 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I see plenty of mistakes being made at first, and there are definitely things that people are unsure of how they properly work. I rarely see fundamental errors against the rules though, and a lot of the errors I see are things people know but forgot. How to roleplay the setting though, most new players are clueless about that. How to deal with someone of superior status who has it in for you; how to conduct an investigation when evidence doesn't matter, testimony means everything and people are being sincere rather than truthful; how to provoke an opponent into a duel or how to avoid getting provoked (while still keeping your honor intact) - that sort of thing perplexes every new player I've ever had at my table. And they can't learn that from the core book, for the most part.

As I said before, it's "Core Book part II" in scope.

I noticed one thing, tho' - compared to 2E and 3E troop strengths, it's seeming to drop the numbers of samurai by about a quarter. IIRC (book is at home) 5 imperial legions, instead of 10, and none full strength. And not even an implied 10 legions per clan, let alone 3E's upwards of 200 full strength legions (of around 750 men each) per clan.

And I think that's a good thing. Then again, 3E was after the clan war.

11 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

No, there is not. I'm not hugely surprised at this, because for the most basic use, you can get away with using two (-san, -sama), and there isn't a specific etiquette section of the book, which is where that kind of information would fit. I am a little disappointed however, because the fact -sensei can be used as an honorific or title, and -dono, among other nuances, would have been nice to see published to help add verisimilitude to any fiction I end up writing for games.

I have a list... gleaned from a dozen Japanese sites for tourists and weaboo.

Honorific Suffixes/Pronouns

• Heika Emperor, Empress
• Denka Highness (princes)
• Hidenka Highness (princesses)
• Sama Higher ranking person
• Hakase Senior version of Sensei
• Dono Lord/Master (suffix)
• Tono Lord/Master (pronoun)
• Sensei Instructor/Doctor/Artistic-master
• Senpai Senior to you students in school
• Kōhai Lesser or equal students in school
• San near Equals or polite to inferiors
• Kun Lesser individual adult
• Chan Children, Maiden, female underling
• Bō male child
• Kō can be used for female children
• Shi uncertain rank person.

All but dono can be used as pronouns; all but tono can be used as suffixes.

Note Shi - probably the most important - it invites the addressed individual to state their rank without dishonoring either party by "missing the mark"...

From the various fictions, add "-ue", which seems to be used for addressing Clan Champions, and might not have a root in real history. I'd have to double check if they use it for other super high-ranking people as well, like the imperial family, "jeweled" champions, etc.

Otherwise, the most commonly used in fictions seem to be -sama and -san, with occasional -sensei, -dono, -chan and -kun.

19 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

I have a list... gleaned from a dozen Japanese sites for tourists and weaboo.

Honorific Suffixes/Pronouns

• Heika Emperor, Empress
• Denka Highness (princes)
• Hidenka Highness (princesses)
• Sama Higher ranking person
• Hakase Senior version of Sensei
• Dono Lord/Master (suffix)
• Tono Lord/Master (pronoun)
• Sensei Instructor/Doctor/Artistic-master
• Senpai Senior to you students in school
• Kōhai Lesser or equal students in school
• San near Equals or polite to inferiors
• Kun Lesser individual adult
• Chan Children, Maiden, female underling
• Bō male child
• Kō can be used for female children
• Shi uncertain rank person.

All but dono can be used as pronouns; all but tono can be used as suffixes.

Note Shi - probably the most important - it invites the addressed individual to state their rank without dishonoring either party by "missing the mark"...

Time to channel my inner weaboo I guess (who am I kidding, I killed that twisted abomination years ago when I had enough free time to pursue whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted).

-kun and -chan are also semi-interchangeable with people you know, typically who you've grown up with or seen grow up, almost always in private. Using the opposite one typically used (-kun is often for near equals, and more often used on men than women; -chan is completely as described, though more likely to be used for girl children) is a sign of playfulness, extra familiarity, or perhaps even a plethora of other minor social cues that I'm completely ignorant of. Shi is polite, but also demonstrates a kind of stealth insult, that mean you are unaware of the person in question, and can be used intentionally as such. Sensei can be used on pretty much any master, not just those listed, especially if you have either learned from said person (formally or not), or, to imply that you would like to learn from that person, without actively soliciting them.

Senpai-Kohai can go far beyond school, and as words are probably a little more likely to be used alone than as a suffix compared to most of these, other than the terms of royal address, while being less commonly hear aloud in general (-san would usually be used to simply talk to a kohai, and even sometimes for senpai). The most common situations in Rokugan I'm thinking of right now where it would apply are: the Emerald Legions, among magistrates (particularly yoriki), in any kind of apprenticeship following schooling, and in any new position that has a large(ish) membership based less around merit. In any group that is somewhat more merit based (Hiruma scout groups, specialists like the Matsu Beastmasters, or Elemental Legions) it's likely a somewhat more casual thing (along the lines of showing a new guy the ropes). In general once someone has proven themselves, even though they'll still have senpai and be expected to ask them questions when needed, they're likely to be seen closer to equals, and treated as such (similarly, if they prove themselves truly incompetent at some point, they're likely to be treated as juniors, even to newcomers who prove themselves, until they can really show they've grown past that incompetence). In fact, for the lulz, introduce someone that many characters actively refer to as 'senpai' in some job, and let it be up to the players to realize that the reason that's happening is because the person is far too incompetent to be anyone's senpai, but socially, they still are, since it's purely based on seniority. (my devious social-stigmatizing tends to lead to sarcasm).

I'd be curious if anyone knows if it would be appropriate to use -dono when speaking to someone as lordly as a clan champion, even if they are not YOUR lord, or if it's a more personal term than that.

Edit: found an answer to my own question. Apparently, despite meaning 'lord', -dono is more akin to an english 'milord', as a reference. Used for social equals, when of high rank, most commonly. Basically -san for higher ranking folks to use with each other, to differentiate from the -san that is their underling(s), as far as I can tell.

Also looked up -ue, and it seems to be an honorific of great respect. Means something akin to "above" according to wikipedia. In the modern day is largely only attached to words meaning things like 'father' or 'aunt', etc... in other words, when not using a person's name in the first place. Since it's mainly archaic, wikipedia didn't have relevant information on if it, or -sama, would be considered more respectful, but since it's commonly stuck on pronouns nowadays, of family, I'd probably use it when a relationship with a superior is more intimate (good friends, sensei to their now-lord ex-student, family, etc...).

In terms of the replies for honorifics, thank you

1 hour ago, Ni Fang said:

In terms of the replies for honorifics, thank you

Edited my above post. Learned a little more about the use of -dono.

15 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

From the various fictions, add "-ue", which seems to be used for addressing Clan Champions, and might not have a root in real history. I'd have to double check if they use it for other super high-ranking people as well, like the imperial family, "jeweled" champions, etc  .

To date, -Ue has only been used for Clan Champions. Since it's always been used - when used - as a suffix to the family name - "Doji-Ue", "Bayushi-Ue" without personal name, I'd assume it probably wouldn't apply to a Jewelled Champion, as the post isn't associated with a bloodline.

To date, we've seen them referred to as "Champion Toturi" or "Champion Sumiko" in English, so what was actually said may have been "Toturi-Ue", but we don't know.

Similarly, we've only seen the Emperor and the Princes referred to as "Your Majesty" and "Your Highness" (aside from Hantei Daisetsu's "My Brother", obviously) so we can assume the Honorifics from @AK_Aramis 's list, but again, have no confirmation.

The approach may be to say "Hantei-Hidenka" or it might be (as per ancient Egypt) considered impolite to namecheck the Hantei as if they were 'just' another family (implying a prince could ever NOT be a Hantei) and there may be a direct, bloodlineless term for 'highness' and 'majesty'.

14 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Edited my above post. Learned a little more about the use of -dono.

We need to be careful not to conflate the Meiji and later uses with the pre-Meiji and even the pre-Tokugawa use.

Tono/Dono now is used very differently than historically, from what I can piece together. Tono/Dono was for your liege or for a shared liege; Sama was other's lieges.

I've not added Ue to my lists simply because I don't know where it's used, how it's used, and because it translates as "up" or "after/post"

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

To be entirely honest, I wish the writers would entirely avoid the honorifics.

Because they aren't using them correctly. And it is nearly impossible for them to use them correctly.

The people doing the writing don't know **** about Japanese culture and their trying to fake it comes off as ridiculously cringy. I can't tell you how many of the L5R fictions for just this edition I have read where they decide to randomly throw in a Japanese word to replace the most basic of English words or in place of a needless honorific and it takes me entirely out of the story and I can't help but think "f*** you, you god damned ignorant hack"-- and that is even if the story more or less had me at that point.

Oh, you know that "yes" in Japanese is "hai"? Good job, first day student of the Japanese language.

And these entirely unnecessary insertions of the Japanese language by people who don't understand **** about the Japanese language (including such ridiculous mistakes as "Kaito no Isawa Kosori" where anyone who knows the first thing about Japanese and isn't a complete idiot would recognize that the Kaito and Isawa there are entirely backwards from what would remotely be passable.

Even if the other 98% of the story is far more well written and engaging than I could hope to pull off, deciding to flagrantly misuse a language I am familiar with and use on a daily basis just entirely ruins the whole **** thing.

If you don't know the first god **** thing about how the language is used, don't try to crowbar into your story in hopes of adding "authenticity", because you are doing the exact opposite. Your samurai story would play better if no such crowbarred Japanese existed within the story and it was only added by those who were translating the thing for a Japanese audience.

But those among the writing staff who decide to write the entire story in English except insert a couple words that a first day student of Japanese could learn? Literally any writer who has written for this setting and decided to put a "hai" in the place of a "yes"....

Seriously try to be a better writer because even if FFG isn't paying you at all, you are overpaid for what a complete hack you are.

There are two kinds of mistakes that annoy me in the fiction. Supremely basic ones (reversing naming schema is an example; shouldn't happen because basic research should point out to you the mistake), and very large-scale complex ones (which shouldn't happen, because that's the kind of thing you do utmost research for).

I am a very rudimentary student of Japanese, and know plenty of people who are fans of the culture with even less knowledge, and I'll explain why adding in something like "hai" does work to add authenticity: it's because while the word being used is "authenticity", the more correct word is "verisimilitude" (just like 'realistic' shouldn't be applied to fiction, or fictional character decisions, when this word more properly addresses the concept). The goal is not to make Rokugan seem like real-world Japan, or like a real place. The goal is to make Rokugan seem more grounded in its own reality, to 'seem real', with the emphasis on 'seem'. It is to add flavour, and emphasize in common speech that these characters are not speaking English. It works as auditory short-hand to remind people to avoid contractions, to speak a little more roundabout, and otherwise effect a certain tone. The honorifics are the same, and while they're abused in the fiction, without living in the culture, ROKUGAN's culture, not modern Japan, not ancient Japan, you can't really grasp the nuance involved: just like the writers clearly can't grasp the proper use for real world purposes. Now, if that bothers you in your games, you can alter their use as necessary, including eliminating them. It's even still worthwhile to criticize specific uses in the fiction, and encourage a more consistent system. But demanding that the honorifics be completely accurate to the real world, and claiming that the writers are hacks, is counter-productive.

I think a major question I would ask you, is does the use of English, German, Russian, and the occasional other language, in Japan, and Japanese works (from anime, to advertisements) make you consider those writers as hacks, and anger you in the same way? Japan does this kind of thing all the time. Engrish is a term for a reason. The grammar aware English major in me is sometimes tweaked by it, but I don't get angry, or somehow think that because the Japanese occasionally use 'yes' or 'no' when it's English 101, that it's some offense (compared to your aggressive dismissal of the use of "hai"). If it does bother you, then I can only point out that within a fictional universe, like Rokugan, my above arguments stand. If it does not though, then I can't help but wonder if you're romanticizing Japanese/Japan, and that's getting in the way of your ability to separate Rokugan, however Japanese inspired it may be, from the real world, because of your emotional attachment to its real-world inspiration.

So use honorifics or dont ? Just want to be sure before I post up the story's progress here

6 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

I think a major question I would ask you, is does the use of English, German, Russian, and the occasional other language, in Japan, and Japanese works (from anime, to advertisements) make you consider those writers as hacks, and anger you in the same way? Japan does this kind of thing all the time. Engrish is a term for a reason. The grammar aware English major in me is sometimes tweaked by it, but I don't get angry, or somehow think that because the Japanese occasionally use 'yes' or 'no' when it's English 101, that it's some offense (compared to your aggressive dismissal of the use of "hai"). If it does bother you, then I can only point out that within a fictional universe, like Rokugan, my above arguments stand. If it does not though, then I can't help but wonder if you're romanticizing Japanese/Japan, and that's getting in the way of your ability to separate Rokugan, however Japanese inspired it may be, from the real world, because of your emotional attachment to its real-world inspiration.

Well, most "Engrish" occurs when people are sincerely trying to make a translation of something for their English speaking customers, but the person doing it is not familiar with English.

But, yes, there are occasions I have seen where within anime, especially those aimed at kids, a character will spout off some standard English phrases, often incredibly out-dated or with incorrect words and often spoken in the most ridiculous of accents to the point that the words can barely be understood.

And, you know what? It does come off as incredibly hacky, and pretty much everyone agrees that it does-- thus whole online communities dedicated to ridiculing this sort of terrible butchering of English. And combined with the ridiculous voice/accent/character put on when such characters do speak English, it can come off as at least somewhat insulting too.

No one who speaks proper English finds Engrish, and especially the portrayal of "American" characters in bad anime granting any sort of authenticity at all. And, in fact, rather when they don't have the characters putting on fake accents and using butchered phrases it comes off as more authentic.

5 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Well, most "Engrish" occurs when people are sincerely trying to make a translation of something for their English speaking customers, but the person doing it is not familiar with English.

But, yes, there are occasions I have seen where within anime, especially those aimed at kids, a character will spout off some standard English phrases, often incredibly out-dated or with incorrect words and often spoken in the most ridiculous of accents to the point that the words can barely be understood.

And, you know what? It does come off as incredibly hacky, and pretty much everyone agrees that it does-- thus whole online communities dedicated to ridiculing this sort of terrible butchering of English. And combined with the ridiculous voice/accent/character put on when such characters do speak English, it can come off as at least somewhat insulting too.

No one who speaks proper English finds Engrish, and especially the portrayal of "American" characters in bad anime granting any sort of authenticity at all. And, in fact, rather when they don't have the characters putting on fake accents and using butchered phrases it comes off as more authentic.

I am not exclusively talking about bad anime. Japanese society sees English, and a number of other languages, as 'cool', and randomly insert words into stuff. Ads use English words that make no sense. Songs include random English. Plenty of non-bad anime have characters use English words erratically, because that's how a number of Japanese use English, or speak (both when being hacky, like when interrogating the one transfer student, and not). Most of the time there's no accent involved (in the songs, ads, anime use where it's not mockery either in-character or out).

Also not talking about American characters, good or not, though yeah, having a character who is supposed to be from America/Britain use some more English does add a touch of authenticity to the character, with an earnestness that's almost painful, considering the character will basically never sound like they were raised speaking the language, but only almost: the honest attempt undermines the cringe to me, and to many others.

Besides that, it's the stereotypes (all Americans are blonde, all American girls have large breasts, they're all 'rude' relatively speaking, etc...) that are far more common, and offensive, than naive attempts to use language to emphasize a part of the character (their foreign-ness in this case), and arguably all of Rokugan/L5R is a bunch of stereotypes moulded into a system designed to explore human characters living within those constraints, both internalized, and those expected/imposed upon them.

If these interactions between cultures insult you so personally that they ruin your enjoyment of things that are meant with no ill intent, then so be it, and I feel bad for you. Stasis isn't a realistic state for existence however, and change and sharing, mutation, adoption, and adaptation, are natural consequences of communication, and cultural exchange (not to mention enhanced by the internet). Trying to maintain a purity artificially isn't very effective (just ask the French), and since Rokugan is explicitly NOT-Japan, there's no reason to act as if it should be some exacting identical language-detailed culture, or completely ignore the language of the cultural inspiration, with no middle ground.

8 hours ago, Ni Fang said:

So use honorifics or dont ? Just want to be sure before I post up the story's progress here

Do what you want, and what your group enjoys, and what you think adds flavour to your game. Leaving them out is fine, but I find ignoring the social nuance you get from using -san, -sama, the occasional -chan or -kun, and of course -sensei, and referring to some people by first name, others by last, or title, does a disservice to the setting. For the record, I don't use the honorifics I'm not familiar with as commonly used in samurai fiction, and L5R like: the aforementioned -ue, but also -dono, which I can't seem to get good answers about, and I'm more likely to use Prince/Princess/Emperor, than honorifics; 'lord' doesn't feel right when a character can actually bow and otherwise treat someone as a lord, and use -san as a dig, or hint of equality, and it doesn't feel right when I want to use -sama to refer to someone who is clearly not a 'lord' as a sign of respect.

On 12/21/2018 at 6:47 PM, Ni Fang said:

So use honorifics or dont ? Just want to be sure before I post up the story's progress here

My vote is do, but do carefully.

52 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

On 12/22/2018 at 11:47 AM, Ni Fang said:

So use honorifics or dont ? Just want to be sure before I post up the story's progress here

My vote is do, but do carefully

If this is limited to -san / -Sama suffixes, don’t worry. It is actually common practice for Japanese people to include those in English written communications. Not including them is considered rude. So you don’t have to worry about this making your piece inauthentic or anything.

1 hour ago, Franwax said:

If this is limited to -san / -Sama suffixes, don’t worry. It is actually common practice for Japanese people to include those in English written communications. Not including them is considered rude. So you don’t have to worry about this making your piece inauthentic or anything.

I worked in a school housing an Immersion program for a year. Sensei and Hakase are used almost as much as san/sama. All faculty and staff were Sensei to the studend; the Principal was Hakase to everyone, as were the TICs for the two programs (neighborhood and immersion). Instructors amongst themselves used few honorifics, but the TA's always addressed the teachers as sensei, even informally. Both TA's and Teachers always used Hakase for the principal.

On 12/22/2018 at 7:58 PM, Isawa Miyu said:

If these interactions between cultures insult you so personally that they ruin your enjoyment of things that are meant with no ill intent, then so be it, and I feel bad for you. Stasis isn't a realistic state for existence however, and change and sharing, mutation, adoption, and adaptation, are natural consequences of communication, and cultural exchange (not to mention enhanced by the internet). Trying to maintain a purity artificially isn't very effective (just ask the French), and since Rokugan is explicitly NOT-Japan, there's no reason to act as if it should be some exacting identical language-detailed culture, or completely ignore the language of the cultural inspiration, with no middle ground.

Ah.. the Rokugan is not Japan defense.

Despite the fact that the Japanese language is randomly inserted and whenever we are told what the "Rokugani" word for something is, it Japanese.

When literally every single word of description, thought and dialogue is being translated to English except for proper names -- and even then, sometimes they are being translated into English because if Rokugani is Japanese, then no one uses the name "Crab" or "Crane" when describing their clan and it is highly questionable what exactly the "Lion" call their clan because the Japanese use the English word for that animal.

But when literally everything but some of the names is supposedly being "translated" from Japanese to English, when they decide that the ONLY time we will get Japanese within the setting is when they use the word "yes" or when using honorifics, or worse... that they insert Japanese, screw it up and make it a permanent part of the setting due to where and how they screwed it up-- it just looks bad.

It isn't quite on the level of cringe as having characters in setting with pink or blue hair that constantly giggle and call everything "kawaii" would. But it is some degree towards that.

The word "yes" being "hai" isn't even an interesting cultural note. The use of that word is so identical to English that it is useless towards adding additional information to the story. There are things that could be.

Honorifics aren't the worst. After all, to some degree they would be conveying a certain amount of cultural information that well... couldn't be conveyed by having things be straight English. Except the problem is that they can't help themselves in using "kun" and "chan" given that these are the ones people hear in anime constantly. The thing is-- those animes are entirely about elementary school students to young adults who when using those words are putting on a childish demeanor.

The whole origin of "chan" in the first place is that it is difficult for children to make the "s" sound and so Japanese children, at least to Japanese ears, are likely to replace "s" with "ch". So "chan" is really just a way of saying "san", but using baby talk. It is basically like a person speaking english replacing their "r"s with "w"s to sound like an infant, just somewhat more culturally acceptable.

Well, culturally acceptable among modern Japanese and those through teenagers and parents talking to their children and such. And, for whatever reason, baby talk between couples is considered sexy-- even more so in Japan than in America/Europe, but it at least used to be a big thing in America/Europe too.

Samurai should absolutely, positively never use those honorifics when speaking with other samurai, especially with those of other clans. It should be limited entirely between "san", "sama", "dono" and "ue". So people's favorite Japanese honorifics that they picked up from anime should realistically be entirely off the table and incorporating them at all is having the characters talk like little kids.

And the "Rokugan isn't Japan" defense isn't very solid-- for if that is the case, why are you force the use of Japanese into the setting at all in the first place?

Another point where there could be a legitimate way of inserting Japanese words if we are to give the impression that the setting is being translated from Japanese? Well, there are multiple ways of saying "I" and "you" in Japanese that absolutely, positively could not translate to English. And so much about how a character would see their relationship with the other person could be expressed by which version of "I" and "you" they chose to use. If a writer had a grasp on this and decided to explain and then utilize this.

Another one would be the fact that within Japanese one can eliminate the subject from a setting entirely. And this can leave what one is saying way more ambiguous than someone speaking in English. In fact, even Japanese texts that are only maybe 100 years old can be difficult for modern Japanese to entirely decipher and translate because English sentence construction fundamentally requires being far more clear and concrete with what one intends to convey.

In cases like these where if one was translating actual Japanese speech, one would have to either add or delete information from the actual utilized words in order to produce a translation that best conveys the meaning that the speech would convey, then it would be appropriate to use the foreign words and/or add additional explanation that would be informative to the reader. A good writer would do this.

But simply using the one word the writer knows in Japanese 100% exactly the way in which the English word could and would and should have been used. That just singularly signals a complete ignorance of the language and is complete hack writing.

And it would be different, perhaps, if the first line of dialogue in any given story was properly translated to Japanese and then the rest of the dialogue in the scene was in English as to signal to the reader that the dialogue in the scene is being translated for their convenience. But then that would have to hold true for whatever the first line of dialogue was.

But to just insert "hai" every time a character says "yes" when using "hai" instead of "yes" adds no information to the story, gives the reader no further understanding or education about the Japanese language and it is the only word in the entire story that is translated to Japanese when nothing about the dialogue in the story shows any sign that there was any concept in the head of the writer to figure out how a Japanese person would have said this line and then translated it-- and mind you, I am not saying you need to do the last of those, only that it would have gone a long way towards justifying "leaving" and of the words in the story "in the original language"...

It is hack writing. It is a writer basically announcing that "this is the singular word I bothered to learn in Japanese, so I am going to abuse it like crazy and insert it everywhere in a desperate attempt to make this setting seem more Japanese." It isn't earnest, it isn't honest-- is stinks of pathetic desperation.

The only thing that is worse is when one of the characters in dialogue says something in japanse-- then explains it in English. Because that 100% indicates that NO ONE in the setting is EVER using Japanese, that everyone in the setting only speaks in English and has only ever spoken in English and any Japanese in the setting is even weird window dressing to the characters in universe with no explanation as to where it came from or why we are told that the Japanese is "Rokugani" when obviously no one actually uses that language.

Because if the characters within that setting were using that language at all-- ever-- even had the slightest knowledge of that language, they would not have to say something within their language and then immediately repeat it to explain its meaning. Imagine someone saying to you.

"The pot calling the kettle black. That means the pot calling the kettle black."

Not only would no one ever say that, it is a nonsensical thing to say-- one's repetition of the phrase did not add any additional information.

So when a writer has a character do this, it lampshades the fact that no one in the setting is speaking Japanese or "Rokugani" at all, even within the writer's head they never considered for a second that the characters were using any other language but English.

The proper way to do this would be to have the character say something, either translate the phrase when they say it even if it is in fact a Japanese phrase you looked up, or don't translate it and then outside of dialogue add the translation for the reader. But when one literally has the character "translate" what they just said in their native language to presumably their native language, the whole thing falls apart.

Again-- another big sign one is reading something done by an entirely hack writer.

Well I don’t know about “hack writers”, but someone sure knows how to hatch a novel in a forum post!

Peace & Love guys, it’s Xmas ❤️ !!

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Ah.. the Rokugan is not Japan defense.

Despite the fact that the Japanese language is randomly inserted and whenever we are told what the "Rokugani" word for something is, it Japanese.

When literally every single word of description, thought and dialogue is being translated to English except for proper names -- and even then, sometimes they are being translated into English because if Rokugani is Japanese, then no one uses the name "Crab" or "Crane" when describing their clan and it is highly questionable what exactly the "Lion" call their clan because the Japanese use the English word for that animal.

But when literally everything but some of the names is supposedly being "translated" from Japanese to English, when they decide that the ONLY time we will get Japanese within the setting is when they use the word "yes" or when using honorifics, or worse... that they insert Japanese, screw it up and make it a permanent part of the setting due to where and how they screwed it up-- it just looks bad.

It isn't quite on the level of cringe as having characters in setting with pink or blue hair that constantly giggle and call everything "kawaii" would. But it is some degree towards that.

The word "yes" being "hai" isn't even an interesting cultural note. The use of that word is so identical to English that it is useless towards adding additional information to the story. There are things that could be.

Honorifics aren't the worst. After all, to some degree they would be conveying a certain amount of cultural information that well... couldn't be conveyed by having things be straight English. Except the problem is that they can't help themselves in using "kun" and "chan" given that these are the ones people hear in anime constantly. The thing is-- those animes are entirely about elementary school students to young adults who when using those words are putting on a childish demeanor.

The whole origin of "chan" in the first place is that it is difficult for children to make the "s" sound and so Japanese children, at least to Japanese ears, are likely to replace "s" with "ch". So "chan" is really just a way of saying "san", but using baby talk. It is basically like a person speaking english replacing their "r"s with "w"s to sound like an infant, just somewhat more culturally acceptable.

Well, culturally acceptable among modern Japanese and those through teenagers and parents talking to their children and such. And, for whatever reason, baby talk between couples is considered sexy-- even more so in Japan than in America/Europe, but it at least used to be a big thing in America/Europe too.

Samurai should absolutely, positively never use those honorifics when speaking with other samurai, especially with those of other clans. It should be limited entirely between "san", "sama", "dono" and "ue". So people's favorite Japanese honorifics that they picked up from anime should realistically be entirely off the table and incorporating them at all is having the characters talk like little kids.

And the "Rokugan isn't Japan" defense isn't very solid-- for if that is the case, why are you force the use of Japanese into the setting at all in the first place?

Another point where there could be a legitimate way of inserting Japanese words if we are to give the impression that the setting is being translated from Japanese? Well, there are multiple ways of saying "I" and "you" in Japanese that absolutely, positively could not translate to English. And so much about how a character would see their relationship with the other person could be expressed by which version of "I" and "you" they chose to use. If a writer had a grasp on this and decided to explain and then utilize this.

Another one would be the fact that within Japanese one can eliminate the subject from a setting entirely. And this can leave what one is saying way more ambiguous than someone speaking in English. In fact, even Japanese texts that are only maybe 100 years old can be difficult for modern Japanese to entirely decipher and translate because English sentence construction fundamentally requires being far more clear and concrete with what one intends to convey.

In cases like these where if one was translating actual Japanese speech, one would have to either add or delete information from the actual utilized words in order to produce a translation that best conveys the meaning that the speech would convey, then it would be appropriate to use the foreign words and/or add additional explanation that would be informative to the reader. A good writer would do this.

But simply using the one word the writer knows in Japanese 100% exactly the way in which the English word could and would and should have been used. That just singularly signals a complete ignorance of the language and is complete hack writing.

And it would be different, perhaps, if the first line of dialogue in any given story was properly translated to Japanese and then the rest of the dialogue in the scene was in English as to signal to the reader that the dialogue in the scene is being translated for their convenience. But then that would have to hold true for whatever the first line of dialogue was.

But to just insert "hai" every time a character says "yes" when using "hai" instead of "yes" adds no information to the story, gives the reader no further understanding or education about the Japanese language and it is the only word in the entire story that is translated to Japanese when nothing about the dialogue in the story shows any sign that there was any concept in the head of the writer to figure out how a Japanese person would have said this line and then translated it-- and mind you, I am not saying you need to do the last of those, only that it would have gone a long way towards justifying "leaving" and of the words in the story "in the original language"...

It is hack writing. It is a writer basically announcing that "this is the singular word I bothered to learn in Japanese, so I am going to abuse it like crazy and insert it everywhere in a desperate attempt to make this setting seem more Japanese." It isn't earnest, it isn't honest-- is stinks of pathetic desperation.

The only thing that is worse is when one of the characters in dialogue says something in japanse-- then explains it in English. Because that 100% indicates that NO ONE in the setting is EVER using Japanese, that everyone in the setting only speaks in English and has only ever spoken in English and any Japanese in the setting is even weird window dressing to the characters in universe with no explanation as to where it came from or why we are told that the Japanese is "Rokugani" when obviously no one actually uses that language.

Because if the characters within that setting were using that language at all-- ever-- even had the slightest knowledge of that language, they would not have to say something within their language and then immediately repeat it to explain its meaning. Imagine someone saying to you.

"The pot calling the kettle black. That means the pot calling the kettle black."

Not only would no one ever say that, it is a nonsensical thing to say-- one's repetition of the phrase did not add any additional information.

So when a writer has a character do this, it lampshades the fact that no one in the setting is speaking Japanese or "Rokugani" at all, even within the writer's head they never considered for a second that the characters were using any other language but English.

The proper way to do this would be to have the character say something, either translate the phrase when they say it even if it is in fact a Japanese phrase you looked up, or don't translate it and then outside of dialogue add the translation for the reader. But when one literally has the character "translate" what they just said in their native language to presumably their native language, the whole thing falls apart.

Again-- another big sign one is reading something done by an entirely hack writer.

So why are you here? It is a game that people can experience a different culture which can lead to people wantingnto learn more.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So why are you here? It is a game that people can experience a different culture which can lead to people wantingnto learn more.

I suppose you are new to this community.

Like, "X is dumb because of reasons" arguments - where "X" is a setting piece of your choice - are the most quintessential Legend of the Five Rings posts by far and wide, even moreso than the "Baby's first L5R game: need help!" stuff.

On 12/22/2018 at 5:56 AM, TheHobgoblyn said:

To be entirely honest, I wish the writers would entirely avoid the honorifics.

Because they aren't using them correctly. And it is nearly impossible for them to use them correctly.

The people doing the writing don't know **** about Japanese culture and their trying to fake it comes off as ridiculously cringy. I can't tell you how many of the L5R fictions for just this edition I have read where they decide to randomly throw in a Japanese word to replace the most basic of English words or in place of a needless honorific and it takes me entirely out of the story and I can't help but think "f*** you, you god damned ignorant hack"-- and that is even if the story more or less had me at that point.

Oh, you know that "yes" in Japanese is "hai"? Good job, first day student of the Japanese language.

And these entirely unnecessary insertions of the Japanese language by people who don't understand **** about the Japanese language (including such ridiculous mistakes as "Kaito no Isawa Kosori" where anyone who knows the first thing about Japanese and isn't a complete idiot would recognize that the Kaito and Isawa there are entirely backwards from what would remotely be passable.

Even if the other 98% of the story is far more well written and engaging than I could hope to pull off, deciding to flagrantly misuse a language I am familiar with and use on a daily basis just entirely ruins the whole **** thing.

If you don't know the first god **** thing about how the language is used, don't try to crowbar into your story in hopes of adding "authenticity", because you are doing the exact opposite. Your samurai story would play better if no such crowbarred Japanese existed within the story and it was only added by those who were translating the thing for a Japanese audience.

But those among the writing staff who decide to write the entire story in English except insert a couple words that a first day student of Japanese could learn? Literally any writer who has written for this setting and decided to put a "hai" in the place of a "yes"....

Seriously try to be a better writer because even if FFG isn't paying you at all, you are overpaid for what a complete hack you are.

Don't you think you are getting a bit too much angry? Also, because, the novellas are well written in the end?

Also, don't even Japanese know their own language, so... I don't see the point to get angry (Many of them can't even tell you why green light in the traffic light is 青, so blue, in their language). Should I be angry because so many Japanese (or and some American too) think Cappuccino and Pizza are from USA.? You know, as an Italian, when I explain them they are both Italian words, and also both are Italian dish and drink, they look at me like if I am an alien or a messiah (depend on people). But to be honest, I don't care... and if I care I should be angry with all the ignorance in every part of the world, lol

And also, it is a fiction. If it will be real feudal Japan, they also need to use Jodai, or other form of classic Japanese. It's like to play a roman empire game and pretend people who writes novella need to be perfect in Latin... Not even people who study it know the exactly pronunciation of the Latin words...

So, just enjoy for what it is: a fiction based on some history. Not real one. Like 300 or similar movie or comic or books.

2 hours ago, Victarion13 said:

Many of them can't even tell you why green light in the traffic light is 青, so blue, in their language

In case anyone is wondering, it's because they didn't used to have separate words for "green" and "blue." "Midori" meaning "green" is a relatively new thing. 😎

Hobgoblyn, what are your favorite fictional works in the L5R setting? You seem to have a lot of passion for the setting, so I'm curious what works you'd hold up as IP standards.



Regarding the verisimilitude of Japanese language within these stories, I'd love to give my perspective as someone who does a lot of freelance work for FFG (I've mostly worked on Star Wars and Genesys, but check out my first foray into L5R in the newly released Emerald Lands). First, the folks working on the L5R fiction aren't "hacks". Full stop. I've read quite a bit of it, and the writing is excellent. Regarding your specific issues with the use of the Japanese language as "hacky", I'd point you to Junot Diaz, all around awful human being, but also a Pulitzer prize winning author who combines Spanish and English on the page, does the things you're upset about all the time. I can tell you I'm not as good or as successful as Junot Diaz, but there are only a handful of writers who are. And they aren't exactly doing work for hire at an RPG company (most of them are writing original literary novels on the side, while pursuing careers in academia, journalism or television/film).

In this particular excerpt of his, he only uses a handful of Spanish words. Just enough for verisimilitude. Anything not within the common vernacular among most American readers, he translates immediately after. So basically, if its good enough for the Pulitzer prize, it's good enough for me, in terms of writing quality.

Warning, foul language and sexual content within the story excerpt.

https://www.cnn.com/2012/09/18/living/this-is-how-you-lose-her-excerpt-junot-diaz/index.html

Anyway, I guess the point is, hey, I'm doing my best. Writing is hard. It's okay if a piece of work isn't everyone's cup of tea. It's okay to criticize the work for how it uses the Japanese language (or whatever else you don't like), especially if it is empirically wrong. But throwing in a few "hai's" is pretty much the industry standard for this sort of thing. No writer, or publisher, wants to take readers out of a story because there is a lengthy foreign language excerpt they might not understand. If it is there, it's going to have to be explained immediately after, or be obvious in context to a majority of readers. Requiring foreign language study for an Intellectual Property is only going to serve to limit the audience for said IP.

Further, anyone in FFG's position is going to want to get the best writers their budget can get them. In my experience, editors are interested in three things. 1.) How good is their prose? 2.) Do they hit their deadlines? 3.) Are they easy to work with? There are surprisingly few folks out there who can manage all three and are affordable for an RPG publisher's budget.

If you have some fluency in Japanese, that's awesome! You should consider keeping an eye on the careers page of this website, and waiting for a call for copy editors or playtesters, so you can lend your linguistic and IP knowledge toward making the products better.

I would say the issue is more about a distinct lack of in-setting explanation for the strange Rokugani linguistics. For example, we can say that the Founding Kami spoke not!Japanese but the humans spoke not!English, so modern Rokugani speak "Weeaboo" as a result of the Kami's not!Japanese obviously having a great influence on their not!English. Hence the strange linguistic artifacts in the setting.

This is actually a problem I often have with the setting: I'm told that Rokugan is not Japan, but the explanation of "how" and "why" are missing, and it kinda leaves me hang out to dry when I want to make sense out of the differences.