17 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

Like in MTG, the reasoning is "If you do [the action], each ship suffers damage". You did the action, part of it was just modified.

If we're referring to other game systems, SW Destiny RRF pg. 19 also has replacement effects.

"REPLACEMENT EFFECTS A replacement effect uses the word “instead” somewhere in its text. If a replacement effect resolves, the original effect is considered to have not resolved, and no abilities can be triggered off of it . (Abilities can be triggered off of the replacement effect.)"

3 hours ago, meffo said:

...

there is no definition of the term "effect" in the game, it's mostly used to describe different game mechanics. gaining an ion token is an effect, gaining a disarm token is also an effect, damage being dealt to all ships at range zero is another effect. that's just how i use the term, though. the rules reference is litteraly littered with the word.

...

it means if you replace the gain an ion token part of feedback array, you never gain the ion token and therefore the text after "if you do" shouldn't apply, since you didn't do it. logically, that means the cost hasn't been paid and the damage shouldn't be dealt.

...

The RRF doesn't have a specific entry for effects vs. abilities, but it's consistent in
that effects are singular things that happen as a result of game rules or card abilities, and abilities are groups of effects.

If you were to take the Jyn Erso example under replacement effects and substitute Feedback Array / Static Discharge Vanes, it's very clear about what happens.

"For example, Jyn Erso’s ability says “If a friendly ship at range 0–3 would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead.” If this ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains a focus token cannot trigger."

Static Discharge Vanes' ability says, " Before you would gain 1 ion or jam token, if you are not stressed, you may choose another ship at range 0-1 and gain 1 stress token. If you do, the chosen ship gains that ion or jam token instead." If this ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains an ion or jam token cannot trigger."

Feedback Array's ability says, " Before you engage, you may gain 1 ion token and 1 disarm token. If you do, each ship at range 0 suffers 1 damage." You would attempt to pay the cost, gaining 1 ion and 1 disarm, to trigger the second part of the ability. The replacement effect of Static Discharge Vanes occurs, and the effect of the ship with Feedback Array gaining 1 ion token is considered to have not occurred; since SDV was used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains an ion or jam token cannot trigger. Feedback Array's second half is an effect that triggers after that ship gains an ion (and disarm) token, so it cannot trigger.

8 hours ago, DoctorJanus said:

The correct interpretation is you both get the ion token if you trigger the discharge vane.

Since the "you may gain [...] 1 ion token" is indeed treated as not having occurred. You may still do it to complete the first part of the Feedback Array. You may not trigger the discharge vane again since you're stressed though.

You're welcome.

Let me tell you a story.

A U-Wing with Perceptive Copilot and Jyn Erso takes a focus action.

After performing a focus action, it gains 1 focus token.

It decides to gain 1 evade token instead, since it's a friendly ship at range 0 of itself.

Since gaining the focus token from Perceptive Copilot is treated as having not occured, it can still do it (gain 1 focus token) to complete the Perceptive Copilot ability.

It decides to gain 1 evade token instead...

2 hours ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:

If we're referring to other game systems, SW Destiny RRF pg. 19 also has replacement effects.

"REPLACEMENT EFFECTS A replacement effect uses the word “instead” somewhere in its text. If a replacement effect resolves, the original effect is considered to have not resolved, and no abilities can be triggered off of it . (Abilities can be triggered off of the replacement effect.)"

The RRF doesn't have a specific entry for effects vs. abilities, but it's consistent in
that effects are singular things that happen as a result of game rules or card abilities, and abilities are groups of effects.

If you were to take the Jyn Erso example under replacement effects and substitute Feedback Array / Static Discharge Vanes, it's very clear about what happens.

"For example, Jyn Erso’s ability says “If a friendly ship at range 0–3 would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead.” If this ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains a focus token cannot trigger."

Static Discharge Vanes' ability says, " Before you would gain 1 ion or jam token, if you are not stressed, you may choose another ship at range 0-1 and gain 1 stress token. If you do, the chosen ship gains that ion or jam token instead." If this ability is used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains an ion or jam token cannot trigger."

Feedback Array's ability says, " Before you engage, you may gain 1 ion token and 1 disarm token. If you do, each ship at range 0 suffers 1 damage." You would attempt to pay the cost, gaining 1 ion and 1 disarm, to trigger the second part of the ability. The replacement effect of Static Discharge Vanes occurs, and the effect of the ship with Feedback Array gaining 1 ion token is considered to have not occurred; since SDV was used, an effect that triggers after a ship gains an ion or jam token cannot trigger. Feedback Array's second half is an effect that triggers after that ship gains an ion (and disarm) token, so it cannot trigger.

Let me tell you a story.

A U-Wing with Perceptive Copilot and Jyn Erso takes a focus action.

After performing a focus action, it gains 1 focus token.

It decides to gain 1 evade token instead, since it's a friendly ship at range 0 of itself.

Since gaining the focus token from Perceptive Copilot is treated as having not occured, it can still do it (gain 1 focus token) to complete the Perceptive Copilot ability.

It decides to gain 1 evade token instead...

So, if I'm reading your reply correctly, you attempt to take the Ion, pass it off to another ship, and then that halts the Feedback array, leaving you without the Disarm token? Whereas if you take the disarm, surely you get to complete the card?

I'm guessing token order is very important here then, because if the Disarm token comes first, you then leave yourself without an opportunity to fire.

2 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

So, if I'm reading your reply correctly, you attempt to take the Ion, pass it off to another ship, and then that halts the Feedback array, leaving you without the Disarm token? Whereas if you take the disarm, surely you get to complete the card?

I'm guessing token order is very important here then, because if the Disarm token comes first, you then leave yourself without an opportunity to fire.

Nah, you take the disarm and ion token simultaneously. Replacement effects don't stop an ability from resolving itself, it stops any effects that would have resolved off of the replaced ability or effect.

The 'if you do' clause doesn't care that you tried to resolve the effect, it only cares whether or not you completely resolved the effect as written. Once you decide to pay the cost for Feedback Array (that ship gaining 1 ion and disarm), you must attempt to gain both tokens, and you get to resolve the rest of the effect (1 damage to ships at range 0) if and only if the ship with Feedback Array gained one ion token and one disarm token. If the ship with Feedback Array uses replacement effects to avoid the disarm, the ion, or both, you don't get to deal the 1 damage.

12 hours ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:

The RRF doesn't have a specific entry for effects vs. abilities, but it's consistent in

that effects are singular things that happen as a result of game rules or card abilities, and abilities are groups of effects.

If you were to take the Jyn Erso example under replacement effects and substitute Feedback Array / Static Discharge Vanes, it's very clear about what happens.

Since gaining the focus token from Perceptive Copilot is treated as having not occured, it can still do it (gain 1 focus token) to complete the Perceptive Copilot ability.

It decides to gain 1 evade token instead...

RAW the situation is not different. Focus action resolve is "you gain a guess token." if replacement effects make everything go on as if the replaced event never occurred, you're still pending receiving a focus token.

But indeed I would rule against it for the current cost of Jyn. But for Discharge Vane, it's a decent and nice combo, not overpowered. You do take an ion, a disarmament, and a stress token to ionize the opponent. (and you all take a damage, if several bumped , while oh one gets ion)

Anyway, ya all are trying to pass "if you do" as a cost, where as it is "do X to" which is the correct wording.

Take Admiral Sloane*. Is doing a barrel roll or a boost a cost, or a trigger?

That doesn't change the fact that "if X" becomes untrue if you replace one of the event it is referring to. You can't answer "I did gain an ion token." It was the other ship that did. So you don't fulfill the condition.

*:meant Ciena Ree

20 minutes ago, DoctorJanus said:

...

Take Admiral Sloane. Is doing a barrel roll or a boost a cost, or a trigger?

...

Admiral Sloane crew has nothing to do with boost or barrel roll.

The rest of your post is just as nonsensical.

The Copilot/Jyn example was supposed to demonstrate that your interpretation, when applied elsewhere, results in the game breaking. Unless you're eager for 3.0 next year, that's not the correct interpretation.

6 hours ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:

Admiral Sloane crew has nothing to do with boost or barrel roll.

The rest of your post is just as nonsensical.

The Copilot/Jyn example was supposed to demonstrate that your interpretation, when applied elsewhere, results in the game breaking. Unless you're eager for 3.0 next year, that's not the correct interpretation.

Duh... I meant Ciena Ree. My bad for being in a hurry and not double checking.

And while I agree that this behavior makes Jyn broken, ffg could still affect a different cost. Sure doubling up evades with focus is strong, so you need to rein in the availability. Cost her 20 points and boom she's balanced.

Also, both are worded differently. Static Discharge Vane happens specifically "before" you would gain the token. Jyn may be interpreted replacing the received token instead of replacing the event.

Oh and please stop saying I'm being non-sensical. This whole "replacement effects make the replaced effect considered like it didn't happen" is what is non-sensical. That's making a time paradox...

the jyn/perceptive example is very silly indeed - and off topic as well. gaining another focus token wouldn't trigger anyway, since effects never trigger more than once at a specific timing unless otherwise clearly stated. also, the timing would already have passed, since "after" means straight away imediately after, not at any time after.

i still agree that the "if you do..." is not fullfilled according to RAW, but i'm quite certain that the intention is for the interaction to work, even though the language is off, judging from previous examples. in my mind, there is no way that ffg didn't intend for the mining guild ties pilot abilities to work together as stated in the article - and they are using the same language.

please note that i'm aware that's not a valid argument for how the rules work, just why i belive we need this clarified, or the rules reference updated regarding replacement effects.

As much as I would LOVE this combo to work, I believe there is enough written evidence and correct wording that proves it doesn't.

In the "Erratta" Section of the Current Rules and Reference Booklet it states that:

Quote

Static Discharge Vanes
Should read: “Before you would gain 1 ion or jam token, if you are not
stressed, you may choose another ship at range 0–1 and gain 1 stress token.
If you do, the chosen ship gains that ion or jam token instead.”

(Changed from “If you would gain an ion or jam token, you may choose a ship
at range 0–1.

I want to highlight the words BEFORE and INSTEAD. By changing the wording from "IF YOU WOULD" to BEFORE, FFG is specifically saying that you will be committing to the following ability BEFORE the ION or JAM token is assigned to your ship and thus, by accepting to "choose another ship at range 0–1 and gain 1 stress token... the chosen ship gains that ion or jam token INSTEAD" and that the Ion token in question was never assigned to the ship that used its Static Discharge Vanes.

So to come back to Feed Back Array: The statement "If you do" (Gain 1 ion token and 1 disarm token) does not hold any truth, because the ship that uses Static Discharge never gains an Ion token, thus not allowing for the ability to work.

I for one fell for the false combo and luckily looked into it before rolling it out in a game.

If the ability was TRULY meant to work we would be seeing wording similar to :

AFTER YOU HAVE RECEIVED and Ion or Jam Token, if you are not
stressed, you may choose another ship at range 0–1 and gain 1 stress token.
If you do, the chosen ship gains that ion or jam token.”

Or

"IF you GAINED AN ION OR JAM TOKEN EARLIER THIS ROUND, if you are not
stressed, you may choose another ship at range 0–1 and gain 1 stress token.
If you do, the chosen ship gains that ion or jam token.”

Both of these wording choices would allow for Feedback Array to finish its conditions and card ability, and THEN after all ships receive the appropriate damage and tokens, static discharge can be used as a secondary ability in the cue as: IF you GAINED AN ION OR JAM TOKEN EARLI..." you get the point.

^^ And this is why I believe so many of us had been confused by this card because we were reading the ability to have sent the Ion token to the ship.

The problem: Grammar

"The original wording "if you would gain" can be interpreted as fulfilling the card abilities because it can be read as a modal verb that expresses a possibility of the intention.

I hope this helps qualm any future frustration and helps narrow in on what I now understand the card effects to be.

On 1/13/2019 at 2:55 AM, Kaz10 said:

(lots of text and pictures)

i agree, except with some of your examples, which would probably let you transfer (that's a game term) the token after receiving it rather than letting another ship gain a specific token you have, if this combo was intended to work.

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:55 PM, Kaz10 said:

As much as I would LOVE this combo to work, I believe there is enough written evidence and correct wording that proves it doesn't.

It does work, just not as an AOE damage combo since the errata you quoted. It is great for guaranteeing an Ion token on a target who is at range 1 making it, ironically, the only reliable way to Ionize an enemy ship. For Small bases it just takes one pulse, for Mediums 2, 3 to Ionize Larges. The ship using the combo pays via a stress and a disarm token for each Ion token applied. While 10 points for the combo, multiple instances of this in a squad can Ion walk a ship off the board in short order, though positioning still matters.

23 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

It does work, just not as an AOE damage combo since the errata you quoted. It is great for guaranteeing an Ion token on a target who is at range 1 making it, ironically, the only reliable way to Ionize an enemy ship. For Small bases it just takes one pulse, for Mediums 2, 3 to Ionize Larges. The ship using the combo pays via a stress and a disarm token for each Ion token applied. While 10 points for the combo, multiple instances of this in a squad can Ion walk a ship off the board in short order, though positioning still matters.

ya, it does work to receive the stress and hand out the ion, but feedback array won't do any damage.

1 minute ago, meffo said:

ya, it does work to receive the stress and hand out the ion, but feedback array won't do any damage.

Like I said...

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Like I said...

ya, i agree, just clarifying that all of the effects don't happen just because part of the combo works.

8 minutes ago, meffo said:

ya, i agree, just clarifying that all of the effects don't happen just because part of the combo works.

Has the term AOE fallen that far out of use?

6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Has the term AOE fallen that far out of use?

well, if you don't mind the ion token it works, but in that case it's no longer a combo.

1 minute ago, meffo said:

well, if you don't mind the ion token it works, but in that case it's no longer a combo.

🤨 From the lack of understanding of what I asked I'll take it that AOE no longer is used to imply "area of effect"...

What I originally said...

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

It does work, just not as an AOE damage combo since the errata you quoted  .

Feedback Array + Static Discharge Vanes is an Ion control combo that won't deal any damage in its combined utilization, as you know and I stated... You use it to force a small base dumb enough to get close to be hard locked into one of only a few possible positions (taking into account coordinated Barrel Rolls and/or Boosts, Advanced Sensors doesn't bypass since no dial is revealed) in the next Activation Phase. If you can get multiple ships with the combo in range of the intended target you can affect medium and large based ships as well. IF you can match heading while stressed you can walk the ship off the table...

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 From the lack of understanding of what I asked I'll take it that AOE no longer is used to imply "area of effect"...

What I originally said...

Feedback Array + Static Discharge Vanes is an Ion control combo that won't deal any damage in its combined utilization, as you know and I stated... You use it to force a small base dumb enough to get close to be hard locked into one of only a few possible positions (taking into account coordinated Barrel Rolls and/or Boosts, Advanced Sensors doesn't bypass since no dial is revealed) in the next Activation Phase. If you can get multiple ships with the combo in range of the intended target you can affect medium and large based ships as well. IF you can match heading while stressed you can walk the ship off the table...

oh, sorry. must've been too tired when i originally read the post.

unfortunately, this is 34 points and not 33.

(24) Binayre Pirate
(4) Feedback Array
(6) Static Discharge Vanes
Points 34