I did a search through this forum and didn't see any topic or post about this interaction. The question is if a ship can use Feedback Array and Static Discharge Vanes to take a weapons disabled token and 1 stress, then deal 1 damage and 1 ion token to a ship at range 0.
The ion and disarm token you get from Feedback Array are a cost you pay to deal the damage. Since you use a replacement effect to redirect the ion token, you didn't actually pay the cost in full, so you don't deal the damage.
So if you use both upgrades, the equipped ship receives a stress and a disarmed token, and another ship at range 0-1 receives an ion token. No damage is done.
So Foreman Proach and Overseer Yushyn would also not work together. If Overseer Yushyn used his ability, then the target of Foreman Proach's ability would not gain a tractor token.
Huh. That's clearly intended to be a combo but it definitely doesn't work by RAW.
Just now, thespaceinvader said:Huh. That's clearly intended to be a combo but it definitely doesn't work by RAW.
I’m now wondering if it also stops Reload & R2 from working if you use Yushyn...
It'd stop R2 Astromech, but reload would work fine.
47 minutes ago, ConomeOnTheVine said:The ion and disarm token you get from Feedback Array are a cost you pay to deal the damage. Since you use a replacement effect to redirect the ion token, you didn't actually pay the cost in full, so you don't deal the damage.
So if you use both upgrades, the equipped ship receives a stress and a disarmed token, and another ship at range 0-1 receives an ion token. No damage is done.
i agree with this, but lets play around with the mechanics just to see how it could work.
your attention, please! i'm not claiming the combo works according to the rules as written! i am well aware of "When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as having not occurred."!
the effect of paying the cost is not resolved as normal. instead, there is a replacement effect.
with static discharge vanes and feedback array, it would work like this:
pay the cost for feedback array - you are about to gain an ion and a disarm token.
static discharge vanes kick in and lets you make another ship at range 0-1 gain the ion token instead of you - and makes you receive a stress token.
you gain the disarm token. the paying costs part for feedback array has been resolved.
static discharge vanes effect resolves, you and all other ships at range 0 receive one damage.
your thoughts? know any further references to instances that tell us you have to resolve paying costs exactly the way they are printed with no options for replacement effects for the paying costs to be regarded as having been resolved?
obviously, you never receive the ion token, so nothing that would trigger off you receiving an ion token would trigger, but is it really clearly stated that you cannot resolve the rest of the effect on a card if you replace the effect of the cost?
feedback array tells us that you need to receive one ion token and one disarm token to deal one damage to each ship at range zero, so it would be illogical to assume that it would still trigger even if you didn't receive the ion token. there is some room for interpretation of the intent here, though.
just some food for thought. FFG clarification would be appreciated as always. i mean, if the
Overseer Yushyn and Foreman Proach combo is intended to work, so should the feedback array - static discharge vanes combo. no? why not?
don't you just love spoiler articles? i know i do.
Now that I think about it, the official ruling about replacement effects is actually from SW Destiny. I don't see any further clarification besides what you've already posted from the rules reference. Logically it still makes sense so I'd stand by my statement though.
I also wouldn't put any faith into spoiler articles being official rulings, FFG's copywriters are infamous for including interactions in their articles that blatantly don't work, even more so than the Mining Guild TIE article.
While I understand why people are claiming the interaction does not work, I am going to point out that the RAW interpretation isn't as clear to me as everyone is saying.
My reasoning is that the cost is still paid. A disarm token and ion token are given out - the ion just goes to a different ship and the ship with feedback takes a stress instead. Obviously that is a replacement effect, which is what you are all pushing.
The reason I will agree is because feedback array specifically says if you do (as in the ship triggering feedback) then... Because the ship triggering never receives the ion, I will agree the cost is not paid, per the card. The replacement effect ruling obviously has important play here, but the card wording seems even more important.
The replaced effect is gain 1 ion token. Nothing else is replaced.
In a slightly different vein, am I reading the card correctly? If I choose to use Feedback Array, I gain one ion token, one disarm token and a damage!
5 minutes ago, Stoneface said:In a slightly different vein, am I reading the card correctly? If I choose to use Feedback Array, I gain one ion token, one disarm token and a damage!
Yup!
10 minutes ago, Stoneface said:In a slightly different vein, am I reading the card correctly? If I choose to use Feedback Array, I gain one ion token, one disarm token and a damage!
That's right, a ship is at range 0 of itself.
9 minutes ago, Stoneface said:In a slightly different vein, am I reading the card correctly? If I choose to use Feedback Array, I gain one ion token, one disarm token and a damage!
Yes, that's also exactly how Feedback worked in 1e too. They just said "Instead of attacking" rather than "gain a disarm token" but functionally it was the same thing. The big change is that in 1e feedback worked out to range 1 rather than just 0.
It never saw a lot of play but was used as a counter to Phantoms and Imperial Aces at times since it was unavoidable if you could get range.
I didn't play S & V too often in 1e so I never realised that you also took damage. No wonder it wasn't used much!
15 hours ago, Green Knight said:The replaced effect is gain 1 ion token. Nothing else is replaced.
continuing with the feedback array example; the card says:
"Before you engage, you may gain 1 ion token and 1 disarm token. If you do, each ship at range 0 suffers 1 (hit) damage."
so the card says you may gain the tokens - and if you do, each ship at range 0 suffers a damage. are you saying that each ship at range 0 still suffers a damage, even if you do not gain the tokens because part of the effect is replaced? and if so, what are you basing that interpretation on?
Like in MTG, the reasoning is "If you do [the action], each ship suffers damage". You did the action, part of it was just modified.
4 hours ago, meffo said:continuing with the feedback array example; the card says:
"Before you engage, you may gain 1 ion token and 1 disarm token. If you do, each ship at range 0 suffers 1 (hit) damage."
so the card says you may gain the tokens - and if you do, each ship at range 0 suffers a damage. are you saying that each ship at range 0 still suffers a damage, even if you do not gain the tokens because part of the effect is replaced? and if so, what are you basing that interpretation on?
You don't get the ion token, because that effect is replaced.
This happens out of action queue, as described in the Replace part of the RRG.
You instead get a stress token, and another ship gains the ion token.
How is that controversial or problematic?
2 hours ago, Green Knight said:You don't get the ion token, because that effect is replaced.
This happens out of action queue, as described in the Replace part of the RRG.
You instead get a stress token, and another ship gains the ion token.
How is that controversial or problematic?
"When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as having not occurred."
therefore, as i interpret RAW, the damage from feedback array should not be dealt.
i want to know if you're saying that the damage is being dealt and if so, how you came to that conclusion.
nothing controversial about it at all.
5 hours ago, Matanui3 said:Like in MTG, the reasoning is "If you do [the action], each ship suffers damage". You did the action, part of it was just modified.
that's interesting, do you have any references to it working like that in the rules for x-wing?
i understand where you're coming from with this, but i should note that it's not an action in game terms.
45 minutes ago, meffo said:"When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as having not occurred."
therefore, as i interpret RAW, the damage from feedback array should not be dealt.
i want to know if you're saying that the damage is being dealt and if so, how you came to that conclusion.
nothing controversial about it at all.
Why should not the damage be dealt?
That effect has not been replaced, has it?
Only the ion token bit.
Or do you mean to say that if you 'interrupt' one effect resolution by replacing part of it, the rest of the effect is cancelled?
I guess that's one possible reading of the rules. Hadn't occurred to me. Seems very strange, but you never know with FFG 😀
1 hour ago, Green Knight said:Why should not the damage be dealt?
That effect has not been replaced, has it?
Only the ion token bit.
Or do you mean to say that if you 'interrupt' one effect resolution by replacing part of it, the rest of the effect is cancelled?
I guess that's one possible reading of the rules. Hadn't occurred to me. Seems very strange, but you never know with FFG 😀
well, RAW you may receive an ion and a disarm and if you do, you deal the damage.
part of the effect is replaced. according to the rules reference, this means the effect never occured, so you never receive the ion and therefore have not paid the cost. therefore, the damage isn't dealt.
feedback array is not a single effect, it's multiple effects.
again, i don't think this is the intention, but it's what the rules say atm..
9 minutes ago, meffo said:well, RAW you may receive an ion and a disarm and if you do, you deal the damage.
part of the effect is replaced. according to the rules reference, this means the effect never occured, so you never receive the ion and therefore have not paid the cost. therefore, the damage isn't dealt.
feedback array is not a single effect, it's multiple effects.
again, i don't think this is the intention, but it's what the rules say atm..
But do the rules REALLY say that?
Is 'effect' the whole card and nothing but the whole card, or can 'effect' be receiving an ion token? And therefore the ion token party can be replaced in isolation?
The example in the rrg is not much use - it's too simple.
The correct interpretation is you both get the ion token if you trigger the discharge vane.
Since the "you may gain [...] 1 ion token" is indeed treated as not having occurred. You may still do it to complete the first part of the Feedback Array. You may not trigger the discharge vane again since you're stressed though.
You're welcome.
Edited by DoctorJanus27 minutes ago, Green Knight said:But do the rules REALLY say that?
Is 'effect' the whole card and nothing but the whole card, or can 'effect' be receiving an ion token? And therefore the ion token party can be replaced in isolation?
The example in the rrg is not much use - it's too simple.
well, not exactly, but it's how i interpret them. strictly speaking, it's what the language used means. i am aware that the language used for the rules is really very sloppy at times, but mostly it's all good.
there is no definition of the term "effect" in the game, it's mostly used to describe different game mechanics. gaining an ion token is an effect, gaining a disarm token is also an effect, damage being dealt to all ships at range zero is another effect. that's just how i use the term, though. the rules reference is litteraly littered with the word.
feedback array is not the only card that uses similar wording, "you may [...], if you do [...]". the question comes down to how strict the if-you-do part is. is the requirement litteral or does it just mean something along the lines of "if you resolve the effect in one way or another"?
this sentence from the rules reference is really problematic for the interaction of replacing part of a cost: "When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as having not occurred."
it means if you replace the gain an ion token part of feedback array, you never gain the ion token and therefore the text after "if you do" shouldn't apply, since you didn't do it. logically, that means the cost hasn't been paid and the damage shouldn't be dealt.
i am going in circles here. probably because i agree with you, but don't think the language is there for us to be 100% correct.