Admonition is the king of defensive upgrades for the MC-30. Lando is the best insurance against big barrages, especially BTAvenger. Those two on the same ship are a big middle finger to your opponent.

However, how would you rank the best defensive upgrades after that for your second, third or even fourth shrimp?

Obviously this can be meta dependent so I'm interested in people's table experiences with them as well as how the maths breaks down.

Current thoughts on the issue:

Foresight seems like a reasonable next choice but I remember seeing some maths somewhere that you were better off with Advanced Projectors in a non Mon Mothma fleet.

Advanced Projectors seems like it was hit too hard by the XI7 ruling to make it worthwhile, but maybe not?

EWS might be helpful in mitigating attacks on damaged hull zones but on a ship that wants to double arc, and with an easy to hit rear arc, I'm not sure how useful this is.

Reinforced Blast Doors could be a lifesaver (even if it only gets rid of one card) but once a shrimp starts taking hull damage it might be too late to make this worthwhile.

Major Derlin seems like a possible option that will likely save about 3-4 damage over the course of a game, but takes up an officer slot.

Electronic Countermeasures is unlikely to be useful with the defence token redundancy, but is situationally useful against accuracy generating red dice volleys.

Cluster Bombs, heh, maybe useful if you know you're facing heavy squad builds. Super situational.

Redundant Shields seems... inefficient and costly.

Walex Blissex pairs well with Admo, especially if Lando is elsewhere, but I'm not sure of his value on a non Admo ship.

Mon Cal Exodus fleet is hamstrung by needing to engineer when the ship really wants to do something else, and also costs you Admo in another ship if you want to make the most of the synergies.

That's all I can think is relevant. What's your experience of using any of these, against what kind of fleets, and can anyone who is better at the maths provide any useful analysis?

13 minutes ago, ManInTheBox said:

Admonition is the king of defensive upgrades for the MC-30. Lando is the best insurance against big barrages, especially BTAvenger. Those two on the same ship are a big middle finger to your opponent.

However, how would you rank the best defensive upgrades after that for your second, third or even fourth shrimp?

Obviously this can be meta dependent so I'm interested in people's table experiences with them as well as how the maths breaks down.

Current thoughts on the issue:

Foresight seems like a reasonable next choice but I remember seeing some maths somewhere that you were better off with Advanced Projectors in a non Mon Mothma fleet.

Advanced Projectors seems like it was hit too hard by the XI7 ruling to make it worthwhile, but maybe not?

EWS might be helpful in mitigating attacks on damaged hull zones but on a ship that wants to double arc, and with an easy to hit rear arc, I'm not sure how useful this is.

Reinforced Blast Doors could be a lifesaver (even if it only gets rid of one card) but once a shrimp starts taking hull damage it might be too late to make this worthwhile.

Major Derlin seems like a possible option that will likely save about 3-4 damage over the course of a game, but takes up an officer slot.

Electronic Countermeasures is unlikely to be useful with the defence token redundancy, but is situationally useful against accuracy generating red dice volleys.

Cluster Bombs, heh, maybe useful if you know you're facing heavy squad builds. Super situational.

Redundant Shields seems... inefficient and costly.

Walex Blissex pairs well with Admo, especially if Lando is elsewhere, but I'm not sure of his value on a non Admo ship.

Mon Cal Exodus fleet is hamstrung by needing to engineer when the ship really wants to do something else, and also costs you Admo in another ship if you want to make the most of the synergies.

That's all I can think is relevant. What's your experience of using any of these, against what kind of fleets, and can anyone who is better at the maths provide any useful analysis?

In Spain we have a guy who loves RBD on them. I think he likes Foresight with RBD, and Mothma of course.

32 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

In Spain we have a guy who loves RBD on them. I think he likes Foresight with RBD, and Mothma of course.

I've certainly run RBD in the past and it might be brilliant or you might get popped before you ever get a chance to close those blast doors! I've been trying to work out what options may be better for keeping damage off in the first place, rather than removing it, but there are too many variable for me to work it out!

How does he do with them?

I still can't work out if Foresight is good value without MM. With her, it's a no-brainer!

53 minutes ago, ManInTheBox said:

I've certainly run RBD in the past and it might be brilliant or you might get popped before you ever get a chance to close those blast doors! I've been trying to work out what options may be better for keeping damage off in the first place, rather than removing it, but there are too many variable for me to work it out!

How does he do with them?

I still can't work out if Foresight is good value without MM. With her, it's a no-brainer!

He uses it a lot so I guess it works for him. I cannot tell too much cause he is not in my area.

What I am sure is that he doesn't wait too much to remove the damage.

Just now, ovinomanc3r said:

He uses it a lot so I guess it works for him. I cannot tell too much cause he is not in my area.

What I am sure is that he doesn't wait too much to remove the damage.

My inclination would be to use them at first opportunity, even with only 1 point of damage. At that point you should be hightailing it outta there, possible ly with engineering commands to move any remaining shields around.

Rieekan? Yeah, Rieekan sounds good.

55 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

Rieekan? Yeah, Rieekan sounds good.

Heh! Technically doesn't mitigate or spread damage. Shame I can't add Rieekan to my other Commander's fleets!

You've hit pretty much every option, but there are a few you might add to your consideration: Shields to Maximum! fleet command on a Pelta, Repair Crews on some GR75s, or Projection Experts on ... something, and tricks to pass engineering tokens to the MC30s (e.g. Comms Net). You can also add Walex Blissex to the Admonition to get back a token you've spent away, which perhaps moves Lando to a Mothma-backed Foresight.



I've tinkered and dabbled with lots of efforts to build turtling-regen Rebel lists, especially focused on MC30s. At the end of the day, I usually conclude that it's just better to add another MC30 to the list rather than invest all the points in defensive upgrades and their requisite support vessels.



If you wanted to go full damage mitigation, though, it'd probably be something like Mothma with Lando, Blissex, Derlin, the two titles, and some Reinforced Blast Doors sprinkled about three MC30s with a Shields to Maximum Pelta as support alongside a pair of Repair Team GR75s. Certainly not better than Reikaan and forgoing most of those upgrades in lieu of more offense/ships, but it might be fun trying to keep the MC30s all alive.

2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

You've hit pretty much every option, but there are a few you might add to your consideration: Shields to Maximum! fleet command on a Pelta, Repair Crews on some GR75s, or Projection Experts on ... something, and tricks to pass engineering tokens to the MC30s (e.g. Comms Net). You can also add Walex Blissex to the Admonition to get back a token you've spent away, which perhaps moves Lando to a Mothma-backed Foresight.



I've tinkered and dabbled with lots of efforts to build turtling-regen Rebel lists, especially focused on MC30s. At the end of the day, I usually conclude that it's just better to add another MC30 to the list rather than invest all the points in defensive upgrades and their requisite support vessels.



If you wanted to go full damage mitigation, though, it'd probably be something like Mothma with Lando, Blissex, Derlin, the two titles, and some Reinforced Blast Doors sprinkled about three MC30s with a Shields to Maximum Pelta as support alongside a pair of Repair Team GR75s. Certainly not better than Reikaan and forgoing most of those upgrades in lieu of more offense/ships, but it might be fun trying to keep the MC30s all alive.

Don't forget the Mon Cal generic titles, adding 2 ENG to a Liberty can really help sometimes.

5 minutes ago, eliteone said:

Don't forget the Mon Cal generic titles, adding 2 ENG to a Liberty can really help sometimes.

@ManInTheBox mentioned the Exodus Fleet title in his OP.

I have used a Assault Pelta with Shields to Max! before and it kept Admo alive for a extra turn, which allowed it to take down a ISD in a game. I have also played around with the same Assault Pelta with Entrapment formation and put the Exodus Fleet cards on the MC30's so that nav wasn't needed as much. The ability to change speeds was enough to keep from running into things. I used CF and Eng so I could hit a little harder and then either repair or move shields as needed. SFO was also helpful if I needed to change my command in a round.

Thanks for the feedback so far, good point with the Pelta too. I ran it with EF! And three shrimps when it first came out but that was before Exodus Fleet was an option. Interesting synergy.

I'm not so much trying to get a list of all upgrades that are possible, rather than get a feel for what's actually working for people.

For example, in a 3 MC-30 fleet I'd be putting my commander on Admo and would probably put Lando on the same ship if the fleet hinges on the admiral (Sato, for example). Second MC-30 would either get Lando (if he's not on the first) or maybe Foresight? Last one might get Derlin?

Or perhaps RBD is a better budget option on the second 2? Or EWS?

I know how long if these work but I don't get a load of time for practice games to get a feel for how situationally useful they are. I misread the XI-7 Vs AP nerf when if first came out and thought it allowed me to move an extra damage, which would have been worth it. When I realised it didn't, that dropped the stock of AP even further!

I know some people were trialing EWS on shrimps and I've not had a chance to run it myself.

1 hour ago, ManInTheBox said:

Heh! Technically doesn't mitigate or spread damage. Shame I can't add Rieekan to my other Commander's fleets!

Technically, it mitigates every point of hull damage after the first four.

@AllWingsStandyingBy The first damage mitigation is always good flying and arc dodging. Good luck arc dodging with a double pelta projection expert fleet.

@ManInTheBox What situations are you putting the mc30s into. Beyond not getting shot you get to choose what type of damage to take and thus tech accordingly. Admo is inherently lazy as its just good against slmost everything.

@Ginkapo, Inherently lazy is my style!

Usual plan with Landmonition is to dive into a dubiously safe position, shedding tokens on the way in, to deliver a nasty double arc and GTFO, possibly blocking a key ship in place for a turn and eating a front arc if need be.

It's been a while since I ran more than one shrimp and I know that I can't get away with quite that level of aggression for the non Admo ships and expect to live (unless I have Mon Mothma with Foresight). Though, target saturation is a valuable strategy to trade up.

Whenever I run these, I do so as torpedo frigates, and all the lists I have built are with those because I like that brawly style. I'm not against running scouts but that extra cost makes it harder to fit multiples.

The vanilla versions of these ships are ok at taking a decent hit, as long as the opponent doesn't have big barrages with accuracy tech, but extra survivability is super helpful if the cost/benefit works out.

For 3 of them, I'm thinking standard Ord Experts, plus an ordnance slot to taste, and some sort of defensive upgrade. RBD is cheap, but keeping damage off is better.

I remember you running multiple shrimps a while back, but a very different approach.

Run them without damage mitigation for a while in casual games imo. Its a learning experience, not optimal but useful training.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Run them without damage mitigation for a while in casual games imo. Its a learning experience, not optimal but useful training.

I agree. It's just that I have relatively few opportunities to play casual games so I have to make them count.

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

@AllWingsStandyingBy The first damage mitigation is always good flying and arc dodging. Good luck arc dodging with a double pelta projection expert fleet.

I mean, I never suggested using double peltas. That said, you're preaching to the choir man, I'm on record saying that the Pelta is one of--if not the--worst ship in the game, and shields to maximum, projection experts, and other defensive tricks won't change that.


Nevertheless, the OP is looking for a particular kind of fleet to try out, and these sorts of options provide what he is looking for... not sure why you think it necessary to crap all over his attempt to try something new and have fun...

13 hours ago, ManInTheBox said:

Electronic Countermeasures is unlikely to be useful with the defence token redundancy, but is situationally useful against accuracy generating red dice volleys.

Try ECM with admo, it will make it more annoying. There will be situations where you will want to use a green def token that is locked down but your other redundant token is red. This helps lengthen the lifespan of your def tokens and reduces the times you would find yourself discarding green tokens to use admo. Also when admo loses its redundant tokens u are still able to ECM-use your remaining token with impunity. This will also allow the mc30 to more fully utilise all its shields coz the def tokens last longer. The shields are part of its health. I have tried rbd before but like cr90 the best use is for healing the ramming and if it starts eating hull damage from attacks it's likely going to die before rbd can be used.

35 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

Try ECM with admo, it will make it more annoying. There will be situations where you will want to use a green def token that is locked down but your other redundant token is red. This helps lengthen the lifespan of your def tokens and reduces the times you would find yourself discarding green tokens to use admo. Also when admo loses its redundant tokens u are still able to ECM-use your remaining token with impunity. This will also allow the mc30 to more fully utilise all its shields coz the def tokens last longer. The shields are part of its health. I have tried rbd before but like cr90 the best use is for healing the ramming and if it starts eating hull damage from attacks it's likely going to die before rbd can be used.

The problem is that when fighting an MC30 accuracies are almost worse than damage to begin with (only deals one extra point when locking down redirects, often useless versus evades.) Your opponent won't bother with accuracies at all if you can block them; he'll just reroll them into damage,and you're generally the same or worse off. It's better to bring EWS and get that damage reduction all the time, often in addition to your defense tokens and with the option to protect unshielded hull zones.

Using activations to not get shot at before it's absolutely necessary...

Which pairs fairly well with Mon Cal fleet (use flotilla to toss 4-eng tokens).

But then admo happens and you scrap that idea.

My favorite defensive upgrade for MC30s is Madine and a Nav Dial+Token. Go in full throttle, and that'll keep those fighters off your back. If you have activation advantage and first turn, you can stop just outside long range of the enemy's big ships, wait for them to move toward you, then kick up to Speed 4 to stop right in front of them. Go first, double-arc, then drop to Speed 3 and 2-2-2 your way out of their front arcs, and rely on those shields and redirects until you're behind them (which will be the next turn). Don't have advantage and first turn? Start the MC30s way out to the side and come screaming in at Speed 4 in their flanks or rear. They'll see it coming, but they either have to turn away from whatever is in front of them (exposing their flanks/rears to your other ships), or let the MC30 get where it wants to be. MC30s are surprisingly hard to kill when they're not getting front-arced by ISDs and MC80s, or plinked by multiple enemy ships.

Also, I agree on the Pelta. I WANT to like that thing, but just. . .meh. Especially considering that the Imperial special command ships are ISDs (and, well, soon the SSD). I ran a pretty successful Rieekan Aces list with it, where it used AFFM, Flight Commander and Fighter Coordination Teams to give B-Wings an insanely large threat range (Speed 1 bump from FCT, then activate with FC and fly them Speed 3. . .makes their effective flight path around Speed 4 1/2). And I don't know if I'll be able to playtest it enough to be comfortable before Regionals (nearest one to me is December 8th), but I'm toying with the idea of an Assault Pelta with Shields to Maximum and Projection Experts to help my shield regenerating big ships alive. But its statline and upgrade bar leave a lot to be desired. Ordnance slot but no access to Weapon Teams, 3/2/1 with 5 hull, and a 1-1 at Speed Two. I'm thinking of using External Racks on the aforementioned shield giver just as a deterrent against small, fast ships that may get around by big fellas.

12 hours ago, reegsk said:

Also, I agree on the Pelta. I WANT to like that thing, but just. . .meh. Especially considering that the Imperial special command ships are ISDs (and, well, soon the SSD). I ran a pretty successful Rieekan Aces list with it, where it used AFFM, Flight Commander and Fighter Coordination Teams to give B-Wings an insanely large threat range (Speed 1 bump from FCT, then activate with FC and fly them Speed 3. . .makes their effective flight path around Speed 4 1/2). And I don't know if I'll be able to playtest it enough to be comfortable before Regionals (nearest one to me is December 8th), but I'm toying with the idea of an Assault Pelta with Shields to Maximum and Projection Experts to help my shield regenerating big ships alive. But its statline and upgrade bar leave a lot to be desired. Ordnance slot but no access to Weapon Teams, 3/2/1 with 5 hull, and a 1-1 at Speed Two. I'm thinking of using External Racks on the aforementioned shield giver just as a deterrent against small, fast ships that may get around by big fellas.

I have played around with a repair Pelta. I found that instead of using StM!, just add Raymus and PE. You can then transfer 2 and repair 2 to keep it full strength at all times. If I have a few extra points I will add ER to it as well. Also, if you are using a repair Pelta, it is a nice place to put your Admiral as your big ship will be protecting it most of the time as you will be flying it behind the fleet. I have used it as a finishing ship if my target ship gets past my big ship with a couple of hull remaining.

I had a similar thought as well, but toyed with the idea of investing a few more points and replacing the Pelta with a Redemption Neb-B, Raymus and PE. Then those dial+token+MCEF MCs could discard three damage cards in a single turn (or a Liberty with an Engineering Team could raise 5 shields), while also getting shields bounced to them by the Neb. The Neb is also faster and more maneuverable, and if someone gets a halfway decent combat ship to either one, they're probably dead.