14 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

In this game. The GM do what he wants and the players should accept that without frustrations. because the rules are awfully loose, If you take everything "as written" you will have a terrible experience and will lose control. As a GM Just do what you want while trying to make sure the players have fun and forget about the rules.

That might be the hard part. None of the two melee players are built for duels, which is probably why he was not happy with it and none of them look like they could do intrigues, which is probably really going to come back to bite them, though the Shugenja player has expressed interest in picking up some social skills, so there is that.

13 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Well, so firstly, Famously Honest still means they have to have heard of you. Middling glory baby samurai probably aren't that well known in a pre-social media landscape. You climb a mountain in Dragon lands to talk to the head of a monastery and you're a Crab known for being honest down at the Wall, he has no way to get news of you - so obviously it's not universal.

Second is just give them evidence to the contrary. Which in Rokugan means somebody with higher Status said it, because only the Kitsuki care about physical evidence. You still can't go around contradicting people more important than you, or your glory will start taking hits. Also if they're lying selfishly a lot start siphoning off that Honor. Pretty sure that's not acting with Honor, Sincerity or Righteousness.

Well, that'll help (and I am sure the player will be upset with it... but I'll just have to deal with that)

I probably should have been doling out honor loss for the Crab and Unicorn players, with how they act (both their characters really don't care for honor much, which may end up becoming an issue)

Not related but the adversary templates stack with the Sample NPCs in chapter 8, even if they are listed as an adversary already? This is for the beta test setting.

Challenges to a duel are not really all that common. Unless there's a dispute over honour, they're downright rare. If other arguments devolve into violence, it's likely not an actual duel but rather a brawl - real duels (can) involve getting permission from lords, setting up a time, finding secondants and arbiters and are generally a hassle. If it's just a case of tempers flaring, bushi might well choose to fight it out without minding the formalities. If that feels better for your players, you can always use skirmish resolution for that sort of thing. Of course, if they push that sort of thing too far there should be consequences too: bad reputations, glory and honor losses, trouble with their betters, etc.

As for Famously Honest, keep in mind your reputation is often only as good as the last impression you make. If a PC commonly bends the truth while relying on his reputation of honesty to convince people, that reputation won't last very long. If your player doesn't play an honest character, that character should gradually lose the benefit of being known for honesty. Aside from that, as @UnitOmega said, there are limits to what a character can convincingly say that have a lot to do with their status, as well as with the nature of their statements: gossip and rumormongering should be easy enough (as long as the rumours aren't too outrageous or easily disproven), but making serious allegations - true or not - about people who outrank you is a) going to come back to bite you and b) won't just make people act on those allegations even if they do believe them. "Might makes right" is an almost literal and absolute truth in Rokugan.

Well, they were challenged to a duel for insulting someones honor (and give the fact that two of the three don't put much stock in honor... i can see this happening to them often)

2 minutes ago, Suimaru said:

Well, they were challenged to a duel for insulting someones honor (and give the fact that two of the three don't put much stock in honor... i can see this happening to them often)

Then hopefully they'll learn not to do that callously, or to become better duelists fast. Point is, PCs don't have to worry about getting into duels because of the setting all the time - but if they provoke them themselves, they shouldn't blame the setting for it.

One would hope. At least the phoenix shugenja isn't trying to start anything (though his delusions of grandeur hasn't been triggered, yet)

17 minutes ago, Suimaru said:

Well, they were challenged to a duel for insulting someones honor (and give the fact that two of the three don't put much stock in honor... i can see this happening to them often)

I mean, if they go too far, there are samurai who will cut them down without care, bringing in the lethality of the setting, and teaching them one of Courtesy's real values in Rokugan. Ronin, some Crab, anyone of particularly high status who they act rudely towards (or, more precisely, that person's guards). For example, if a lowly status 40-45 clan magistrate goes to winter court at Kyuden Hida, mocks the bravery and stoicism of the Crab, and expects not to be beaten to death and have his body dumped over the Wall, he's dreaming (assuming he's had his warnings: likely at least one of which was a beating, brawl, or being locked in his room during 'an emergency'). A reasonable story of how he bragged he could do better (likely a true story), and then went over the Wall to face the Shadowlands (a hilarious polite fiction), would be all his lord gets afterward, and all most would need: he was only status 40-45 after all...

If the characters act against Bushido, take away Honour. As their Honour drops, give them Disdain of Bushido disadvantages. And with those in place, they're going to struggle to act with Bushido believably, and are begging to be ostracized, if not exiled, turned ronin, or killed if they transgress badly enough. It wouldn't be unheard of for a daimyo to send a problem samurai to some minor duty in the City of Lies, expecting to never hear from them again.

Hopefully they'll start enjoying the game once they have actual combat, rather than a duel, there are some skirmishes coming up.

Well, it's kind of a ouroboros of not following cultural norms, innit?

Dueling is a method for resolving 1 v 1 disputes of Honor, which also frequently includes legal disputes. Even high-ranking Samurai cannot get away with certain statements, accusations or actions, especially if they are aimed at members of another Great Clan.

Since dueling is a matter of honor, the key to not being challenged to a duel is to not offend another's honor. But in of itself avoiding a duel is dishonorable and inglorious, and likely to lead to more problems. Too much dishonor and inglory, and your Lord will demand your seppuku. If you refuse, this is also dishonorable and failure to do so one should be so lucky as to be merely disowned as a ronin, and not executed like a common criminal. This means if you don't want to get people to call you on your ****, you should act with honor and integrity. At least in the open (but being too shady behind closed doors gets you Disdain disads, which hurts your public performance). It's almost like this is a self-sustaining system of cultural norms, or something.

I do think part of it is how new I am to this system, as well. I feel like I'm getting the hang of it, after reading over the book for the 10th time. I probably should've played in a game somewhere first.

3 hours ago, Suimaru said:

Doing the beta test's pre-made, they got to the point where they got challenged to a duel by Keinosuke, the Unicorn player accepted and he won the duel but all he did was complain about how his opponent was obviously better than his character and must have had extra points, even after he won. Which has me worried when they get to the fight with the demon cause that thing is way stronger than he is. The other players have been pretty cool with it, other than the Crab player making some complaints about how they can be challenged to a duel, something about disliking the fact that it can even be done. Kinda makes me not want to put more duels in but doing that just doesn't sit well with me, since it's part of the setting of the game as a whole.

Well, sometimes your opponent is going to be better than you. That's a thing. You can still win, sometimes, and - assuming you didn't screw up the social side and end up in a duel to the death , you can even survive losing.

3 hours ago, Suimaru said:

Also but  worried about the Unicorn and Crab player for other reasons, they seem way overly cautious about strife. The Crab player actually went over their composure but refused to even unmask, I dunno if they have some negative view of it or not but I should probably let it come back to bite them, when they have more strife than composure and can't keep strife dice when compromised.

I'm aware that the second part is more a thing I'll have to try and get them over, just not exactly sure how I should go about it.

Three ways:

• Let them see another character unmask and....not precisely "get away with it" but get the chance to do something they wouldn't normally do (like the TN reduction for a heartfealt if discourteous plea; sobbing in court or something).
• Put them in a situation where they really aren't going to pass a check without uncompromising themselves - an intrigue where two opponents are loading strife continuously onto them, or without accepting strife results on dice. Watching a group of fire-stance Ikoma courtiers at work should hammer this point home - they get more bonus successes and layer strife on their opponents faster than they can hope to shrug it off*.
• (Probably the meanest) introduce them to the business end of the technique Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade : " Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised. "

3 hours ago, Suimaru said:

The last thing I'm not sure about is Famously Honest.

I feel like it's going to be a problem because of this part

Other people have heard of you for your honesty, and they believe you by default unless
given evidence to the contrary

this just makes it possible for them to undermine a lot of stuff and I see no real way around it, it almost completely ruined something I had planned. I don't have any idea how I'm supposed to have that player not just convince every NPC he's right, am I supposed to have other NPCs just be more convincing (not sure anything short of physical evidence they are lying would even work, which makes it harder for naturally convincing NPCs to do their job)

This isn't 'magic brainwashing'. The 'text line' of advantages and disadvantages are part rules, part flavour text - the GM should generally have people behave that way , but it can't be automatic-at-all-times or you would never be making a check to need to use the dice and get rerolls from the distinction.

Equally, the GM defines "evidence to the contrary" - no-one said 'physical' evidence.

(remember for that matter that physical evidence is the absolute lowest form of evidence in Rokugan; given a conflict in a court between a murderer's knife being used with fibres from their kimono trapped in it and their distinctive handprint on the grip and testimony from a high-status individual saying " wasn't them, Guv ", they walk).

"I know them and that doesn't sound like them" is quite acceptable 'evidence to the contrary' - not meaning you'd automatically fail, but meaning convincing would need to win an intrigue or something.

3 hours ago, Suimaru said:

I probably should have been doling out honor loss for the Crab and Unicorn players, with how they act (both their characters really don't care for honor much, which may end up becoming an issue)

Definitely. Honour and Glory are dynamic values and should go up, and down, in the course of a campaign. It's not like XP - indeed, some of the best Samurai drama isn't "what's the honourable course of action" (because that's easy ) but what's-the-least-dishonourable-because-we're-dumping-on-some-tenet-of-Bushido-whatever-we-do.

2 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Then hopefully they'll learn not to do that callously, or to become better duelists fast. Point is, PCs don't have to worry about getting into duels because of the setting all the time - but if they provoke them themselves, they shouldn't blame the setting for it.

This. Don't poke the societal rules unless you have the swordsmanship to back it up - and even then, sometimes that's not enough: if the presiding lord - far too high status for you to gainsay or challenge - says "you are being rude, get out" you can either leave or get sashimi-ed by his personal hatamoto (who will most definitely be better than you are).

* If you want generic 'aggressive politicians' you can always do worse than reach for the Ikoma. In the same way Bayushi Kachiko is responsible directly or indirectly for a lot of the political strife in the current Empire, Ikoma Ujiaki is responsible for agitating for most of the military conflict:

• You killed our Clan Champion whilst he was trying to kill you in an attack he launched to seize one of your clan's cities after the Emerald Champion himself ruled "no, that's not a thing" to our rather shaky historical claim ? WAR! ETERNAL VENDETTA!
  • (The Price Of War)
• You broke a betrothal agreement after discovering we never mentioned the man was already happily married and the blood of his wife would be on your hands ? WAR! ETERNAL VENDETTA!
  • (Curved Blades)
• You dare question me about a crime that you're not actually suggesting I was involved in in any way and I actively commissioned you to investigate after pointing out that the entire Lion Clan wanted the man dead and I freely admitted I was scouting his castle with intent to storm it and kill him? WAR! ETERNAL VENDETTA!
  • (Murder at Kyotei Castle)
• You've only got vegetable gyoza left!?! WA .... dude, it's a tea house .....I said WAR! ETERNAL VENDETTA!
  • (Okay, I made this one up, but it's hardly out of character for him)

This has been very helpful. Feeling a bit more confident now. Thanks.

The others have put up some really helpful answers. So I just want to chime in quickly to summarize some of the points.

For players:

• Dueling needs not be deadly. Duels must be approved by the higher-ups, especially duels to death. Duels to first blood can be more common. Failing that is not quite as serious though. Players even have option to forfeit the deal if they recognize that the opponent is obviously better.
• I know they are new players to the system but honor is the name of the game here. Learn to play within its structure. Otherwise why are you playing L5R and not some Asiatic-themed D&D?
• With honor being the name of the game, don't feel bad if people humiliate or kill you when you do dishonorable acts. Starting characters in L5R are especially low-class within the samurai caste so almost anyone can kill them if they don't behave. This is what the game is about : navigating these social constraints to rise up the social ladder.

For GMs:

• Don't hinge crucial plot decisions on a deal if your characters aren't good duelist. If you want them to befriend good duelist NPC, signal that clearly.
• Make dueling fails gracefully i.e. even if the character loses, the plot can move along and still be interesting
• Stress what the game is and is not about. Of course each group can play the way they want, nothing wrong with that. But a vanilla experience of L5R is that of a strict social order where honor is stronger than steel and a false word can kill faster than a sharp blade. Make sure you know what type of Rokugan you want to experience , and make sure you communicate that profusely with your players.

10 minutes ago, broselovestar said:

Don't hinge crucial plot decisions on a deal if your characters aren't good duelist. If you want them to befriend good duelist NPC, signal that clearly.

Or give them a good duellist NPC of their own. It is not at all out of character for a close friend, ally or vassal to offer, to be ordered to, or to be duty bound to volunteer to duel 'on your behalf'.

Most of the old 'B' (Bushido) series of L5R adventures featured the players getting in waaaaaaay over their heads to the point that they were going to get challenged by someone to a duel to the death no matter what they did, but equally some of them had the option of some scary-good NPCs (as in "named characters from the current LCG and fiction") interceding for them if they'd comported themselves appropriately.

well, I left them hints, like the setting asked for, one of the players even thought Keinosuke wasn't guilty, soon as they get to the wall and confront him
"We're taking you to the Emerald Magistrate for murder charges!" two of them said, while the shugenja just sighed and wished they had learned how to be subtle and read the situation better. Ironically, it was the Crab player's character, who thought he wasn't guilty, then just says that.

1 hour ago, Suimaru said:

well, I left them hints, like the setting asked for, one of the players even thought Keinosuke wasn't guilty, soon as they get to the wall and confront him
"We're taking you to the Emerald Magistrate for murder charges!" two of them said, while the shugenja just sighed and wished they had learned how to be subtle and read the situation better. Ironically, it was the Crab player's character, who thought he wasn't guilty, then just says that.

...Yeah.

On the one hand, that is what they've been tasked to do by Seppun Hirohide; lying about it and trying to trick him would be dishonourable too.

On the other, walking up to an unknown Ronin, telling him he's under arrest and expecting him to come quietly is optimistic at best. Did they bother to find out he was now a full-fledged Crab Clan Samurai before trying to arrest him?

Granted the adventure was tough for beginners. Not in terms of NPC level but in terms of navigating Rokugan's politics. Kudos on running it

1 hour ago, broselovestar said:

Granted the adventure was tough for beginners. Not in terms of NPC level but in terms of navigating Rokugan's politics. Kudos on running it

For new players getting comfortable with the ins and outs of the setting has been a bigger challenge than learning the mechanics of the game for several editions already.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

...Yeah.

On the one hand, that is what they've been tasked to do by Seppun Hirohide; lying about it and trying to trick him would be dishonourable too.

On the other, walking up to an unknown Ronin, telling him he's under arrest and expecting him to come quietly is optimistic at best. Did they bother to find out he was now a full-fledged Crab Clan Samurai before trying to arrest him?

oh, they knew he was a member of the Crab Clan now. I'm doing my best to show the players that he's acting very honorably despite "being a murderer" because the Crab and Unicorn player still think he'd run away in the confusion of the upcoming battle, so they have him locked up. Fortunately, he'll be able to get out during the demon attack to help them. Hopefully they adjust quickly, because if not, they'll have it hard during the next one.

Even winning a duel doesn't guarantee the issue is settled. It just means the repercussions won't be formal and public over the initial transgression.

If you draw duels for being a lout and leave a swathe of cripples behind you, those cripples have no legal recourse... but their lords do. You have deprived these lords of healthy samurai. You're not in trouble so much because of the duels, but your lack of self control.

Likewise, if you leave a trail of bodies, sane daimyō will not grant you permission to enter nor travel through their lands. The guards at the road in who have heard of you will politely ask you to stay at the guardpost, even put you under an umbrella or inside the post, while a runner takes your papers to their lord. When said runner returns, you are very politely informed that, "the Lord is away. Please try again tomorrow." If you then enter, they can legit dogpile on you and kill you as a common criminal. If you come back, it repeats. Indefinitely. Even as someone else's papers are approved. "They had a permission already" will be the explanation.

One must remember that Rokugan is essentially an occupied land under martial law by an elite caste. It's heaven is filled with a bureaucracy, even. You can be stonewalled for weeks, and if you don't play along, killed summarily.

12 hours ago, Suimaru said:

oh, they knew he was a member of the Crab Clan now.

So, they were coming to arrest a crab samurai for murder without any testimony specifically stating "he dun it", during a major attack on the part of the wall whose garrison he is a member of ?

I'm just picturing Hida Tonomatsu looming over the Unicorn, asking

"Is everyone in your family a suicidal fool, Exceedingly Small Northerner? Or did they sensibly exile you for your personal defects?"

(Yes, I realise that's not especially courteous either. But [1] she's the Watchtower commander, hence the local 'lord' and [2] she's a Crab samurai, so given to pointing out stupidity when she sees it, whether it's diplomatic to do it or not)

11 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Even winning a duel doesn't guarantee the issue is settled. It just means the repercussions won't be formal and public over the initial transgression.

This. A duel settles all issues relating to the initial subject of the duel in the eyes of the law. But that doesn't mean people forget it happened, and it certainly doesn't mean the loser and their friends, superiors and allies won't hold a grudge.

Well, that is kinda/sorta how it went, then Keinosuke challenged them to a duel, there was a squabble over the duel as the Unicorn didn't want to remove his armor (cause Keinosuke didn't have armor and was requesting an Iaijutsu duel) honestly, I think i did that duel wrong, he could've won but I don't have a good grasp on how to best use a given character's skill set during a duel.

Also, at the end of the session, I gave out exp, we'd been at it for 5 hours. Not all the players were satisfied with how much they got (which i can only assume stems from them being used to D20 systems and getting big amounts of exp) they got 5, which, if i am reading the ways to spend exp, is a fair bit, they'll get more next session, as there are a lot of things for them to cover which will earn them extra experience. On that note, how much exp do GMs typically hand out at the end of a session?

26 minutes ago, Suimaru said:

Also, at the end of the session, I gave out exp  , we'd been at it for 5 hours. Not all the players were satisfied with how much they got (  which i can only assume stems from them being used to D20 systems and getting big amounts of exp) they got 5, which, if i am reading the ways to spend exp, is a fair bit, they'll get more next session, as there are a lot of things for them to cover which will earn them extra ex  perience. On that note, how much exp do GMs typically hand out at the end of a session? 

The Corebook recommends 1xp per hour of play, so you are right on the money. Maybe add 1 or 2 per session for outstanding roleplay or for the completion of story objectives and this should be fine.

It’s possible to hand out more, which will lead to rapid progression of the characters; so that is a style preference.

40 minutes ago, Suimaru said:

Well, that is kinda/sorta how it went, then Keinosuke challenged them to a duel, there was a squabble over the duel as the Unicorn didn't want to remove his armor (cause Keinosuke didn't have armor and was requesting an Iaijutsu duel) honestly, I think i did that duel wrong, he could've won but I don't have a good grasp on how to best use a given character's skill set during a duel.

There are two approaches here; either simplify duels out using the One-Roll-Duels approach (just give advantages/disadvantages and improved or penalised TNs to represent stances, appropriate techniques and distinctions, or clever - or underhanded - tactics), which might suit the players who sound like they're not a fan of being asked to duel, or else play out a few duels against yourself and get your head around the mechanics.

Note that the 'best' way to win duels varies wildly depending on what the duel is - this is where the courtier character can effectively win the duel by picking terms which suit your contestant better than the opponent (A Hida Defender who can essentially tank fatigue and criticals for days? You probably want to first strike. Their massive endurance, by comparison, means they'll be arguing for 'to incapacitation', in full armour).

If there's a 'squabble' about the terms of the duel, the presiding lord (in this case Hida Tonomatsu, as Keionsuke's commander) will rule on the terms, deciding what weapons and armour are permissible and whether the duel is to incapacitation, first strike, first blood, defeat, or to the death. Their decision goes and is unarguable - although a mini-intrigue beforehand to advocate for your preference is not inappropriate.

The Crab, historically, have preferred 'warriors duels' - armour and blunt force trauma weapons, fought to unconsciousness or yielding - but Tonomatsu is also likely to want to ensure a 'fair' fight; meaning that since Keinosuke has worn robes and a katana, either you have to fight with your diasho or she'd loan him a matching heavier weapon from the watchtower's armoury (she probably wouldn't lend him her own, as that's sending a message that she believes him, not you, in which case she either wouldn't be letting the duel proceed or would have let him set the terms), and she might insist on no plated armour.

Arguing for 'unfair' duel terms is one thing - maybe because combatant (a), on your side, is a skilled iaijutsu practicioner and combatant (b) isn't - but demanding that your champion is in full plate with a zanbato and the other fighter is in worn travelling clothes with a shortsword isn't going to be especially convincing in what is, after all, supposed to be an 'honour duel'.

Exactly how to win a duel depends on the terms, what techniques you have available, the weaponry, and your composure and endurance. There's no one-true-technique because the way you need to win each type of duel is very different.

For example, spinning blades style is better for incapacitation duels where you need to hit your opponent as fast, as hard and as often as possible, but bugger all use for actually drawing blood, whilst heartpiercing strike is an amazing technique for first strike duels where one critical strike - no matter how low a severity - is all you need to win.

40 minutes ago, Suimaru said:

Also, at the end of the session, I gave out exp, we'd been at it for 5 hours. Not all the players were satisfied with how much they got (which i can only assume stems from them being used to D20 systems and getting big amounts of exp) they got 5, which, if i am reading the ways to spend exp, is a fair bit, they'll get more next session, as there are a lot of things for them to cover which will earn them extra experience. On that note, how much exp do GMs typically hand out at the end of a session?

It is. Note that "Fate of the Realm" level campaign characters only start with 30!

Compare the In The Palace Of The Emerald Champion adventure - act II nets the players a recommended 5XP. That's for Qualifying as Emerald Magistrates, Solving the highest-profile murder of the last generation, and surviving a murderous attack by a freaking ninja*.

You don't need huge amounts of XP to improve a character a lot, because the way TN works, one rank of a skill - especially one rank of a skill you're currently rank 0 in - is a huge deal, and a new technique is only 2-3 XP.

I tend to hand out 5 XP or so, but do so at the end of a 'story chapter' rather than purely by time played. But then I tend to do so because a 'chapter' normally ends in downtime, which better explains where new techniques have come from...

* Okay, technically not a ninja before anyone who's come across actual shadow-branded ninjas in the Rokugan setting points that out. Shinobi =/= Ninja. But 'Really athletic and stealthy shuriken-flinging assassin in concealing robes'

The one they were in, was to first blood. Looking over it, Keinosuke probably could've won that, by spending opportunity.

1 hour ago, Suimaru said:

Well, that is kinda/sorta how it went, then Keinosuke challenged them to a duel, there was a squabble over the duel as the Unicorn didn't want to remove his armor (cause Keinosuke didn't have armor and was requesting an Iaijutsu duel) honestly, I think i did that duel wrong, he could've won but I don't have a good grasp on how to best use a given character's skill set during a duel.

The details of a formal duel are not straightforward. Similar disputes can and will result in very different duels depending on the circumstances and on who is involved. I'm hoping Emerald Empire will provide more information about this (and that we'll get it soon).