2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

See, I think the experimenting is far from over. Sure, you can try a few different things for a handful of games each, but that's not really getting over the hurdle of having something properly figured out. Particularly if it's something that requires more strategic thinking than just fly up there and throw dice.

These comps atm, people are largely taking the 1st, easiest things that have emerged. Things that aren't hard to figure out, things that are proven. Or they're just trying out the newly emerged hotness before moving on.

But that's not really my point. Which is that outside those top choices, there are other choices that people can do well with, if they put the time in, figure it out and most importantly, make the right choices on the table. It's just that atm, in highly competitive settings, we haven't seen much of that. And maybe even, we won't in the near future, but that doesn't mean everything else is unplayable at a decent level.

But I'd be daft to deny that a small number of things are stronger than they need to be. I'm just unconvinced that they're SO much stronger that you have to fight fire with fire or surrender.

And of course, many things are weaker than they need to be. But there's still a lot in between that we're not seeing because of time restraints and, perhaps even moreso, simply fashion.

I think it's a shame that people run with these big event results and use them to determine what is worth using and what is not in such a binary way. A lot of things are flying under the radar atm and a lot of excuses are being looked for when our own in game decisions are to blame.

I agree that people are grabbing the obvious, low-handing fruit. I disagree that they'll stop doing that. A few brilliant souls will unlock some currently unseen combo, but once they do, the masses will just latch onto it. That's the way it's been over the two years I've been playing.

The only really good list I've encountered that I'm shocked hasn't caught on more is quad juke phantoms. But I'm guessing most people who might run it either don't have 4 phantoms because that needs 2 kits, or tend to use whisper more.

It's a really good list.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

The only really good list I've encountered that I'm shocked hasn't caught on more is quad juke phantoms. But I'm guessing most people who might run it either don't have 4 phantoms because that needs 2 kits, or tend to use whisper more.

It's a really good list.

We have a local player who's been playing it, it's a giant pain. It made top 16 at Australian Nationals, as well.

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I agree that people are grabbing the obvious, low-handing fruit. I disagree that they'll stop doing that. A few brilliant souls will unlock some currently unseen combo, but once they do, the masses will just latch onto it. That's the way it's been over the two years I've been playing.

I expect this is entirely true, unfortunately. It seems silly to complain about it and then do the same though. The fruit at the top is normally much cleaner, if harder to reach.

Dogs wee on that low fruit.

But there's no accounting for taste.

11 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I expect this is entirely true, unfortunately. It seems silly to complain about it and then do the same though . The fruit at the top is normally much cleaner, if harder to reach.

I'm not sure who's complaining.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I'm not sure who's complaining.

Well it's not me! Everything is fine. Perfectly fine. As it should be and is. Forever.

Except all the complaining. Don't get me started on the complaining. I could complain for hours about it.

Edit. Reading back... yeah, sorry, I might be bringing some outside influences in with me...

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I agree that people are grabbing the obvious, low-handing fruit. I disagree that they'll stop doing that. A few brilliant souls will unlock some currently unseen combo, but once they do, the masses will just latch onto it. That's the way it's been over the two years I've been playing.

Every game ever

For at least a decade of gaming

While it's true that somethings will always be better than others, the playerbase's astounding ability to prematurely proclaim X as competitively unbeatable or worthless really slows development time of new tech (parattanni, for example, and I was one of many who completely dismissed mindlink)

Personal opinion is we're currently paying way too little for I 5+, but also that the game state is infintely better than whatever meta **** 1st Ed birthed from its colon (apart from the illustrious wave 7, ofc). The fact that ARCS ******* MATTER AGAIN already makes 2nd Ed worth it

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

While it's true that somethings will always be better than others, the playerbase's astounding ability to prematurely proclaim X as competitively unbeatable or worthless really slows development time of new tech (parattanni, for example, and I was one of many who completely dismissed mindlink)

This is the primary reason I've always been a proponent of the Second Edition format...a limited format promotes exploration of all the nooks and crannies. Hopefully Hyperspace format will deliver that.

Most people might be lazy, but most of the powerful combinations really are obvious and discovered very early by the community.

How many of these mythic hidden power decks or combos emerged during the 1st edition?

Dengaroo, Attani Mindlink, anything else?

It's not like there are dozens of top tier decks and combinations waiting to be discovered..

We might be lucky to get 1 or 2 of these unicorns in the first couple years of 2nd edition.

9 hours ago, Sciencius said:

And thank good that is the case. List building is (imho) an important part of this game, if every random combination of pilots and upgrades <=200pt was viable and could win a major tournament, I would loose any interest in the game, but then again I am also the type who spends almost as much time using an online list-builder as on the table flying my ships....

I guess I'm more or less the opposite. I want to spend very little time making a list, and more time flying it.

8 hours ago, SOTL said:

Honestly, not greatly, now that things are settling down and people seem to fly the same Scum lists week after week. I'm rather hoping that when Epic releases, it doesn't have a lot of tournament support, just so the players who play it stick to casual mode.

7 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I never feel like I've picked a genuinely bad list in 2.0. Flown wrong, oh for sure.

But never a truly bad list.

Four Lambdas felt pretty underwhelming.

4 hours ago, SOTL said:

It's not that big a card pool, there's really not many options and squads to put together that I haven't tried in some form or other.

Really? Feels like a lot of options to me. Have you tried 3x Lambdas ? (Seriously, far better than 4x, and just a lot of fun to fly.)

Lambda -class T-4a Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot - 69
Omicron Group Pilot - (43)
Collision Detector (5)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
•Darth Vader (14)
ISB Slicer (3)

Lambda -class T-4a Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot - 58
Omicron Group Pilot - (43)
Collision Detector (5)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
ISB Slicer (3)
•0-0-0 (3)

Lambda -class T-4a Shuttle - •Lieutenant Sai - 70
•Lieutenant Sai - Death Squadron Veteran (47)
Collision Detector (5)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
•Director Krennic (5)
Freelance Slicer (3)
• ST-321 (6)

Total: 197/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Will ppl please stop talking about Attani like it was some hidden gem? It exploded almost immediately that Scum with green turns on their dial were printed.

9 hours ago, SOTL said:

So much this.

People thought 2.0 was going to be like...

But it's more like...

Wave 2 and 3 could be just like Wave 6 and 7. Hey we got a new faction, the top from last year is still on top.

Very possibly, but Hyperspace is the ejector seat I'm hoping to strap myself into.

33 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Will ppl please stop talking about Attani like it was some hidden gem? It exploded almost immediately that Scum with green turns on their dial were printed.

And as soon as the better option for Jumpmasters got nerfed.

Why is nobody playing a Sloane swarm?

36 minutes ago, NABLA_OPERATOR said:

Why is nobody playing a Sloane swarm?

They are, and it's a strong archetype.

However, you're going to see most, if not everything is outgunned by the Scum's propensity for free re-rolls and unmissable game effects like stress via 4LOM and Quadjumpers... virtually all packaged on resilient, tanky ships.

With the exception of maybe Fenn. He's still squishy and pops like Soontir.

Plenty of Imp squads are making the top cuts, but you'll see a stronger and stronger shift toward Scum as more data comes in from nationals, etc.

1 hour ago, bydand said:

They are, and it's a strong archetype.

However, you're going to see most, if not everything is outgunned by the Scum's propensity for free re-rolls and unmissable game effects like stress via 4LOM and Quadjumpers... virtually all packaged on resilient, tanky ships.

With the exception of maybe Fenn. He's still squishy and pops like Soontir.

Plenty of Imp squads are making the top cuts, but you'll see a stronger and stronger shift toward Scum as more data comes in from nationals, etc.

I agree that Scum is the top dog, but there seems to be a regional differences.

US and for example France recently have been playing a ton of Imperials.

UK is heavy on Scum, as is Poland and surrounding eastern european countries.

Scum is generally terrible at R3, though. Boba, Guri, 4-LOM, Gunrunners and Fangs need to be at R1 to trigger their abilities, and Palob has to be at R2, at least. This means that Scum has solid counters to knife fighting Imperial aces like Vader, Whisper and Fel, but they're less good against snipers and ordnance. I suppose that if the meta is high initiative Empire preying on less mobile Rebels, then these counters will prey on the Empire aces. Hopefully the next couple of waves will give us more long ranged stuff. Energy-Shells and Longshot, it's something at least. Maybe a bit of a discount on Ion Torpedoes and Concussion Missiles?

The meta is exactly as it is in any other game. The meta is a collection of the most consistent and efficient components available in the game and always will be. The hive mind latches on to the obvious quickly and with a small card pool; creates a small meta.

There are players that despise being in that circle, and others who want to catch their opponents by surprise; and will constantly try to find things that work outside that current meta. Most will fail, but there are always a few that find some gems to keep the meta rolling. It's how it was in 1.0 and how it will always be.

After 2 months of 'Rebels are DOA', we're finally seeing some rebel lists start winning. None of the cards have changed, people have started to work them out. That's not to say Rebels are in a balanced place right now, but it exemplifies the growth of the meta quite well.

I'm excited for Wave 3 when we have 7 factions to choose from and players start having a difficult time predicting what their opponents are going to be flying before its slapped on a table in front of them. That will be where the fun begins.

More variation creates a more diverse meta. As you add more options to the game, the rock, paper, scissors mentality becomes less viable. These extra factions are what is going to really open the meta up in 2.0, we just have to wait.

2 hours ago, BVRCH said:

The meta is exactly as it is in any other game. The meta is a collection of the most consistent and efficient components available in the game and always will be. The hive mind latches on to the obvious quickly and with a small card pool; creates a small meta.

More variation creates a more diverse meta. As you add more options to the game, the rock, paper, scissors mentality becomes less viable. These extra factions are what is going to really open the meta up in 2.0, we just have to wait.

IMHO, these two statements are at odds with one another. It doesn't matter how many options you add to the game, there will always be the top 10%. The cream will still be a small set of components; they will just be floating on the top of a larger vat of options that no one chooses.

Rock, paper, scissors doesn't actually apply. The game only has one goal. There will always be a single toolbox that works best, and the rest of the tools will sit in the shed.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO, these two statements are at odds with one another. It doesn't matter how many options you add to the game, there will always be the top 10%. The cream will still be a small set of components; they will just be floating on the top of a larger vat of options that no one chooses.

Rock, paper, scissors doesn't actually apply. The game only has one goal. There will always be a single toolbox that works best, and the rest of the tools will sit in the shed.

I don't think you get what I'm trying to say.

Yes there will always be the 1% as I said in my first point. However 1% of a sample of 100,000 gives you more options than a sample of 1000, this is what I'm saying in my last point. A larger sample size gives the omega players I was talking about in my second point, more options to keep the meta rolling. The 'meta toolbox' will always be larger with more options available to it, as well as cycling more frequently.

Rock, paper, scissors does apply in a meta such as our current one. For example, say there are 3 lists that considered the tournament winners. In such a small meta players will look at that data like rock, paper, scissors;

"X is really common in my area, but Y is strong against it. Z is strong against Y, but Z isn't very common so I'll play Y to give me the best chance of winning."

When there are 15 top lists, calculating that risk becomes much more difficult with diminishing return due to the higher number of variables. More factions helps with this as there will always be a top option for each faction. With only 3 factions, the probability of one of those being stronger than the rest is much higher than with 7 total factions. People will still try and best what they consider 'the best list', but at that point the wheel is spinning much faster, so to speak.

57 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO, these two statements are at odds with one another. It doesn't matter how many options you add to the game, there will always be the top 10%. The cream will still be a small set of components; they will just be floating on the top of a larger vat of options that no one chooses.

Rock, paper, scissors doesn't actually apply. The game only has one goal. There will always be a single toolbox that works best, and the rest of the tools will sit in the shed.

Not quite.

The problem of winning most often can be solved by many tools/tool-combos. There's usually likely a best list, or set of best lists, but if the effectiveness of each list is only a small amount compared to other well-created lists, then diversity can occur based on meta game reactions and or personal preference/experience.

Say List X has a 80% of winning against most list, player skill being approx. even: This is a bad/overpowered meta. Metagame level 0 - bad. This is pre-last-patch Xwing (tragedy simulator, pre-nerf jumps etc)

Say List X has a 60% of winning, but List Y has 40% against most things but 70% vs List X, and List Z has 45% against everything. This is a meta game based on "meta gaming" and list choice countering and rock paper scissors. The game is generally based on hard counters and player skill does not equate favorably to meta game list choice. Metagame level 1 - choice paradigm. This is Xwing Wave 4, Phantom/turret/swarm.

Say Lists X Y Z has 55% chance of winning, and Lists A B C D have 45-48% chance. This is meta game level 2 - simple, but balanced tiered distribution. I posit that last patch Xwing (5Xs, Reapers) was approaching this level of balance, with a few things kinda off whack, like 55% win rate off whack)

Say Lists X Y Z has 52% chance of winning, and Lists A B C D E F G H have 45-48% chance. (Lists I J K L etc that are poor lists may or may not be good at winning, and are still generally irrelevant) This is basically the highest level of meta game: level 3 - differences in win rate exist, but are minor and can be overcome EASILY by player skill, but do not approach arbitrary randomness.

If everything has a 50% chance of winning, this is not a game. its a coin flip where no list choices have any impact. If no move/in-game options also provide no impact, then the game is simply based on chance. This is meta game level 0 also. A meta game does not exist. This is the "meta game" of picking a Monopoly avatar. That choice has no impact on the game outcome.

---

I wonder if we can sticky this...

Well, @BVRCH and @Blail Blerg , I see what you are saying.

I think this will be the case if the factions are well balanced. And from what I see, FFG is doing a lot to keep them compartmentalized, which will be great for game balance. All should work well if players become faction-focused, choosing 1 or 2 favs and playing them all the time. Then, if FFG keeps the goodies spread evenly, people will have 7 choices at any given moment (because I think players will choose evenly among factions for personal reasons}.

I think this could all go more along the lines of what I originally said if players are faction-fickle, and willing to change to the 1 or 2 hot factions at any given moment.* Then, you still will have 5 dead factions at any given moment, and a lot of chaff.

Personally, I like having a ton of options, and one of my complaints about the reboot was the pool got smaller. If 2.0 is going to be less about upgrades and more about ships, each chassis needs to have WAY more pilots than 4-6. Not only will this grow the options, but it will allows people who play this game because it's SW able to play narrative games with all the characters in the SW Universe.

*Sadly this would be great for FFG, for selling product.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I think this will be the case if the factions are well balanced. And from what I see, FFG is doing a lot to keep them compartmentalized, which will be great for game balance. All should work well if players become faction-focused, choosing 1 or 2 favs and playing them all the time. Then, if FFG keeps the goodies spread evenly, people will have 7 choices at any given moment (because I think players will choose evenly among factions for personal reasons}.

I think this could all go more along the lines of what I originally said if players are faction-fickle, and willing to change to the 1 or 2 hot factions at any given moment.* Then, you still will have 5 dead factions at any given moment, and a lot of chaff.

In most other games with 6 or more factions this doesn't happen. Usually at that point there is enough checks and balances that prevent it. There's a definite possibility that it could happen, but the Dev's would need to royally mess things up in order to create such a disparity.

The adjustable point cost is a key means to keep the faction balance in check too. They will bob up and down with each point re-evaluation.

Everyone has their favourites. There will also always those WAAC players that swing between factions. They are a minority though. Whether the choice is mechanics or fluff based, if all factions are fairly well balanced people will for the most part stay to their favoured faction.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Personally, I like having a ton of options, and one of my complaints about the reboot was the pool got smaller. If 2.0 is going to be less about upgrades and more about ships, each chassis needs to have WAY more pilots than 4-6. Not only will this grow the options, but it will allows people who play this game because it's SW able to play narrative games with all the characters in the SW Universe.

I agree and I think one of the Resistance's strengths will be their large roster of unique pilots. But as you said its not just about OP. I know people who are just now coming to the game because of the release of the prequel factions. More options is always good, for both competitive players and casual players.

5. Cartel. Marauders.

No other list in nearly 100 games of second edition has given me more victories.

I've murdered every supposed 2.0 meta list with it. 18-2.

When they raise their base cost by 1 one day I'll weep villainous tears.