I'm struggling to figure out the differences between a couple Rings when it comes to investigation, primarily Air (analyze) and Fire (theorize). By those words alone, one is figuring it out and the other is guessing, but the descriptions get a bit muddy and really what's the line between the two? How would you adjudicate these two "investigations"?

Scene 1 - The party comes across a meditating samurai in their travels. The samurai is distant and contemplative, and asks them what they believe it means to live a good life. The samurai has been tasked by his lord to murder a bastard child whose mother has been overly gossipy on the matter. He currently weighs his duty vs. compassion. His line of questioning would allow the players to decode the reason for his contemplative state if they cared to ask. They may also recall some of these salacious rumors (Earth>Culture) regarding the Samurai's Daimyo. Is reading this guy and his figuring out what's going on with him Air or Fire + Sentiment? (No plot here, really I just want the players to get into character and start thinking about how they balance their bushido ideals).

Scene 2 - The party find themselves attempting to requisition aid from an elderly magistrate who really should have retired at this point. He spends his days working on his garden and gaming with friends. It should be possible to decipher the nature of the fellow simply by observing the care and intensity of his garden. Is this Air>Aesthetics to simply look at the garden and put two and two together? Fire>Aesthetics to guess the magistrate's motivation? Water>Aesthetics to just look at the garden and realize this is someone who's spending all their time here?

I love the Art of Investigation stuff on page 170 in theory. In reality, I really want that page to be much closer to the Rings descriptions where they talk about what investigation looks like, and the list of skills. Plus about another two dozen examples. Really if every skill had an example of Investigation, I don't think that would be overkill, and it still wouldn't address every possibility. It's a lot to take in compared to every other game that's "roll to notice".

Well, so with Scene 1, as presented, I don't think you can "figure out what's going on" as such, especially when he gives them such a vague start. Maybe with like a crazy high TN and some opps, or something. What you can do is just roll Sentiment, and that's more like Seeing Through Lies (p. 159), and depending on what approach they take, they can get different answers, like Air can tell if he's being untrue, what his vulnerabilities are right then, Fire can understand their conviction, and let them know if he's omitting something, Water might sense how he feels about his dilemma, or what his desire is, Void can sense his purpose and intent (which might be most useful in this case, he's asking a question to help resolve something with him), etc. Unless you roll well and have like opportunity to spend on gaining unrelated information though, I don't think in a single roll you can unpack everything going on with him, you'd need multiple rolls over multiple questions and responses.

Scene 2, I think the short answer is that it can be all of the above depending on how they look at it and what they want to know. Air is for subtlety, picking up small details, understanding strengths and weaknesses in people. Rolling Air to Refine the garden to give it a critical eye might reveal there's not much which can be improved - clearly someone spends a lot of time and attention on it. Water is flexibility, efficiency, situational awareness - Water to Adapt the Garden would be reflecting on it, finding it is a strong template to base another garden on, or observe how the arrangement of terrain is very friendly to an older man. Earth to Restore the garden would note it is well maintained, and has a long history of being so. Void to Attune to the Garden could sense it's true purpose (the thing this guy loves to work on) and provide instinctive insight. I think Fire actually is probably the hardest to justify to investigate something which clearly exists and you can study (perhaps a TN increase) but Fire might be linked to sudden insight, or noticing an absence - such as noting the garden is much better maintained than the Magistrate's dojo, or to perhaps to conjecture about how the garden could be developed - such as realizing the Magistrate has ambitious plans still, or the opposite, this is a perfected garden which hasn't been improved in a long time.

It can be a bit rough to kind of piece all this elemental philosophy together (I jumped though 2-3 chapters formulating this post) but I think this is kind of a thing which takes practice and once you do it a lot, people will start feeling out what elemental approaches either make the most sense or when in a lot of cases multiple ones make sense, what the different ones symbolize and which is harder or easier, and what different consequences their are to them.

There's rarely only one suitable approach to anything, and that includes these examples. Moreover, in real life you'll usually combine several in everything you do, certainly when it comes to investigations. You can't formulate theories without gathering some facts to start from, and unless you know all the facts needed to come to a definite conclusion you'll need to theorize in order to come to what's essentially an educated guess.

For the purpose of this game, in theory any approach is possible to attempt any task. What you need to do is determine how hard it is to succeed with each approach - usually a couple will be so difficult that there's no point in trying, so these can be dropped. The players are free to choose how they want to proceed with the remaining ones, possibly based on the TNs you set (some GMs are open about TNs before the players decide on their approach, others want that decision made before they set the TN).

I'm not sure either of your scenes is really great for demonstrating this principle, in no small part because they deal with human motivations and people often aren't open books, especially in Rokugan (samurai are supposed to be inscrutable), but let's give it a go. I'd say figuring out the contemplative samurai's state of mind would be very difficult without sufficient information: I'd set a fairly high TN for a Fire approach (maybe just make it impossible even), but given that he's willingly interacting with them to get his own answers, Air should be quite doable - TN 2 probably. The elderly magistrate on the other hand should be an easier read: the clues are laid out for anyone willing to see. Probably the same TN (just 1, or maybe 2 again?) for both approaches. I'd make the Air approach harder because there's little to analyze, but the difference isn't enough to warrant a higher TN.

Just ask yourself: is this something that would be easy to guess or easy to research? The Fire approach TN is basically: with what the PCs already know and/or what is plain to see, how hard is it to connect the dots and figure out what's going on? The Air approach TN is basically: how difficult is it to find out what the PCs don't know yet, but need to know to be able to fill in the blanks?

15 hours ago, player387247 said:

I'm struggling to figure out the differences between a couple Rings when it comes to investigation, primarily Air (analyze) and Fire (theorize). By those words alone, one is figuring it out and the other is guessing, but the descriptions get a bit muddy and really what's the line between the two?

When I think of Analyze vs. Theorize, I think of looking at evidence and putting together a comprehensive picture. Basically the difference between seeing individual pieces of evidence (analyze), and determining how they came together (theorize). If you ever played the Telltale Batman game, its the difference between collecting evidence and the holographic playback summary.

15 hours ago, player387247 said:

I love the Art of Investigation stuff on page 170 in theory. In reality, I really want that page to be much closer to the Rings descriptions where they talk about what investigation looks like, and the list of skills. Plus about another two dozen examples. Really if every skill had an example of Investigation, I don't think that would be overkill, and it still wouldn't address every possibility. It's a lot to take in compared to every other game that's "roll to notice".

Here's my interpretation of how to use the rules. Kituski Ken is investigating a kidnapping of a local governor from his room.

• An Aesthetics (Water) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to survey the room and determine that the flower arrangement by the door has not been disturbed, indicating that there was no struggle near the entrance.
• A Skulduggery (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the door lock to see that it has not been picked.
• A Skulduggery (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the window latch to see that it was tampered with.
• A Survival (Water) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to survey the grounds outside the window and determine that there are no tracks.
• A Labor/Seafaring/Skulduggery (Fire) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to theorize that the governor may have been hoisted up using a rope and pulley system.
• A Culture (Earth) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to recall that the governor was intending to impose sanctions on Scorpion trade in the region.
• A Sentiment (Void) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to sense that the pulley was probably attached to the third floor of the building, where the Scorpion delegation was housed.
• A Labor (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the frame of the third floor to see where the pulley could safely be attached, and confirms that there are scratch marks at that location.
• A Fitness (Water) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to survey the third floor to determine that it would be possible to cross from this building to the third floor of the Northwest building using a tree between the two.
• An Aesthetics/Survival (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the tree to see a cracked branch and several missing leaves.
• A Survival (Earth) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to recall that this type of tree has a lot of sap, which would cover the kidnapper's clothes.
• A Design (Earth) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to recall that Bayushi Bob was wearing a striking kimono this evening, with a pattern identical to the color of the sap of this tree.
• A Sentiment (Fire) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to theorize that Bayushi Bob chose this outfit specifically to hide any sap stains gathered from kidnapping the governor, and is probably still in the area to secure an alibi.
• A Sentiment (Void) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to sense that if he directly confronts Bayushi Bob, hostilities may break out.

The biggest difference between this and other games, in terms of investigation, I think is represented by the " A Labor (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the frame of the third floor to see where the pulley could safely be attached, and confirms that there are scratch marks at that location " statement. In other games, the character with the highest "perception" would immediately be able to see the scratch marks in the wooden beams, in the dark, from two floors beneath. Here it is assumed that anyone looking in the right area, that knows what to look for , will see it. The tough part is making sure that you look in the right area, and that you know what it is you are looking for.

16 hours ago, player387247 said:

Scene 1 - The party comes across a meditating samurai in their travels. The samurai is distant and contemplative, and asks them what they believe it means to live a good life. The samurai has been tasked by his lord to murder a bastard child whose mother has been overly gossipy on the matter. He currently weighs his duty vs. compassion. His line of questioning would allow the players to decode the reason for his contemplative state if they cared to ask. They may also recall some of these salacious rumors (Earth>Culture) regarding the Samurai's Daimyo. Is reading this guy and his figuring out what's going on with him Air or Fire + Sentiment? (No plot here, really I just want the players to get into character and start thinking about how they balance their bushido ideals).

Okay, here is how I would interpret this scene. First, the Scholar skills/Investigation approaches:

• A Theology (Earth) roll would allow the character to recall a passage from the Tao of Shinsei related to what it means to live a good life.
• A Sentiment (Void) roll would allow the character to sense that the character is experiencing inner turmoil due to a hard decision.
• A Sentiment (Air) roll would allow the character to analyze the samurai's body language to see that he is depressed.
• A Culture (Earth) roll would allow the character to recall the current scandals of the daimyo.
• A Sentiment (Fire) roll would allow the character to theorize that the daimyo might order a samurai to execute the mother.

Next, trying to get the samurai to provide more detail using Social Skills:

• A Command (Earth) roll would allow the character to reason with the samurai to provide more information.
• A Courtesy (Water) roll would allow the character to charm the samurai, perhaps causing them to provide more information.

16 hours ago, player387247 said:

Scene 2 - The party find themselves attempting to requisition aid from an elderly magistrate who really should have retired at this point. He spends his days working on his garden and gaming with friends. It should be possible to decipher the nature of the fellow simply by observing the care and intensity of his garden. Is this Air>Aesthetics to simply look at the garden and put two and two together? Fire>Aesthetics to guess the magistrate's motivation? Water>Aesthetics to just look at the garden and realize this is someone who's spending all their time here?

First again is the Investigation approaches:

• An Aesthetics (Water) roll would allow the character to survey the grounds to see that the garden is meticulous.
• An Aesthetics (Air) roll would allow the character to analyze the garden to see evidence that each plant is being pruned and shaped daily.
• An Aesthetics (Earth) roll would allow the character to recall that it takes 3 gardeners a full days work to trim a garden this size at their daimyo's personal estate.

Next, trying to get more details using Social Skills:

• A Courtesy (Air) roll would allow the character to trick the magistrate into telling them how much time he spends playing games and working on his garden.
• A Command (Reason) roll would allow the character to reason with the magistrate to spend more time away from his estate.
• A Courtesy (Void) roll would allow the character to enlighten the magistrate to understand the fundamental truth of him neglecting his duty.

Both of your situations are less clear-cut than the kidnapping one, but both work under the basic approaches of investigation:

• Survey (Water) - Looking over a large area for evidence.
• Analyze (Air) - Looking at a specific item for evidence.
• Recall (Earth) - Using information gathered previously.
• Sense (Void) - Using your instincts or hunches.
• Theorize (Fire) - Connecting specific pieces of evidence (gathered from Survey/Analyze) for a larger picture.

At least that is my interpretation. While I like aspects of this game, it greatest weakness is the lack of examples in every chapter, IMHO.

Great examples! Blow by blow on the kidnapping is pretty fun. I particularly like the Fitness example, that's great.

Blow by blow on my example scenes is super helpful too. I think I have a pretty solid idea of how I'll run things now, just recalling everything at once is going to be a challenge <Earth (L5R Rules) - TN 3> to get right in any given moment. I avoid rolls when I'm running a game as much as possible, but when I call for them I like them to matter and be appropriate.

Definitely going to take practice. Thanks guys!

18 minutes ago, player387247 said:

I think I have a pretty solid idea of how I'll run things now, just recalling everything at once is going to be a challenge <Earth (L5R Rules) - TN 3> to get right in any given moment.

Pg 144 has a pretty nice table on Skill Groups, Skills, and Approaches (which is reproduced on the GM screen). The approaches (key words?) are probably one of the most useful things on the GM screen, to be honest. I'd recommend either photocopying this page if you don't have the screen.

Figured I'd do another example, since these posts are kind of fun. 😃

Kitsuki Ken is told that a Lion ambassador, Akodo Daishin, has been murdered in the capital city, where he maintained a residence.

Examining the Body

• A Medicine/Martial Arts [Unarmed] (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the body and determine that it did not suffer from blunt force trauma.
• A Medicine (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze the body and determine that a toxin had been used.
• A Survival (Earth) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to recall that a wild plant that grows nearby can produce these effects when prepared properly.

Interviewing Akodo Daishin's Yojimbo, Akodo Kaito

• A Sentiment (Fire) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to theorize that Akodo Kaito is leaving out an important character detail.
• A Sentiment (Water) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to discern Akodo Kaito's personal feelings about Akodo Daishin.
• A Sentiment (Earth) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to understand Akodo Kaito's fears of violating the Bushido tenet of Duty and Loyalty.
• A Courtesy (Void) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to use well-chosen words to get Akodo Kaito to question his devotion to the Bushido tenet of Duty and Loyalty over Sincerity. Akodo Kaito informs Kitsuki Ken that Akodo Daishin was a viscous man who frequently and unnecessarily beat his servants.

Interviewing Akodo Daishin's Peasant Servant, Rokuro

• A Sentiment (Water) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to discern Rokuro's personal feelings about Akodo Daishin.
• A Medicine (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to analyze Rokuro's coughing fits as symptoms of the same toxin.
• A Courtesy (Fire) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to incite Rokuro to ignore the risk of telling the truth...or...
• A Courtesy (Air) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to trick Rokuro that Akodo Daishin survived the attack...or...
• A Courtesy (Void) roll allows Kitsuki Ken to enlighten Rokuro to remmeber his true self before killing Akodo Daishin.

There's usually something you can get with each approach, but you'll need several approaches to get a decent picture.

On 11/24/2018 at 6:51 AM, player387247 said:

Scene 1 - The party comes across a meditating samurai in their travels. The samurai is distant and contemplative, and asks them what they believe it means to live a good life. The samurai has been tasked by his lord to murder a bastard child whose mother has been overly gossipy on the matter. He currently weighs his duty vs. compassion. His line of questioning would allow the players to decode the reason for his contemplative state if they cared to ask. They may also recall some of these salacious rumors (Earth>Culture) regarding the Samurai's Daimyo. Is reading this guy and his figuring out what's going on with him Air or Fire + Sentiment? (No plot here, really I just want the players to get into character and start thinking about how they balance their bushido ideals).

• "Having heard the rumours" is definitely earth - you either remember them or you don't, they're not there now, and "The Culture skill covers knowledge of the Emerald Empire’s customs, traditions, families, trends, geography, and practices. This includes recent goings-on, historical events, and persons of significance" so Culture is a good match.
• 'Scrutinising' you're already aware of something is Air - so Air + Sentiment is "there's something screwy here - what exactly is he feeling/trying to tell us?"
• I could also suggest water (survey) - which is for 'notice something you weren't aware of' might pair with....I dunno, smithing (as a general 'wargear skill')? To register that despite being in a peaceful bit of his own lords' land, and having 'gone into the wilds to meditate', his horse is carrying a suit of plate and he is armed for war.
• 'Theorise' (???+Fire) is more a check for 'once you've got your pile of evidence' turning it into...well....a theory.
• Discussing bushido virtues (trying to 'talk him out of it' - or trying to reassure him he's 'doing the right thing', depending on how the players feel) is Enlighten (Void) - probably either courtesy or sentiment depending on how in control of himself the other samurai is.

On 11/24/2018 at 6:51 AM, player387247 said:

Scene 2 - The party find themselves attempting to requisition aid from an elderly magistrate who really should have retired at this point. He spends his days working on his garden and gaming with friends. It should be possible to decipher the nature of the fellow simply by observing the care and intensity of his garden. Is this Air>Aesthetics to simply look at the garden and put two and two together? Fire>Aesthetics to guess the magistrate's motivation? Water>Aesthetics to just look at the garden and realize this is someone who's spending all their time here?

• I think it's a couple of stages. Aesthetics is the right skill for gardening (since he wouldn't be doing the 'labour' bit of the gardening) - water + aesthetics would tell you "that's a really well maintained garden" if the player's attention has been drawn to it.

Broadly, to me, entirely "automating" an investigation follows a fairly standard chain of elements (any or all of which may be provided by an outside source or figured out by the players with in-character roleplay or thoughts):

Realise you need to gather evidence

• Water - 'survey', is the 'Haaaaaang on...' approach - noticing that something is there to be investigated in the first place.
• Void - 'sense' is a classic star wars 'I've got a bad feeling about this' - when there's no specific obvious reason (especially if supernatural influences are present)

Gather evidence

• Air - 'scrutinise' is the ring you use to inspect something closely, once you know that there's investigating to be done.
• Earth - 'recall' lets you draw in things not currently present that you should logically know

Do something with the evidence

• Fire - 'theorise' - is taking chunks of evidence and coming up with a working explanation.