Hi everyone,

I'm a bit unsure how these two artifacts interact.

Annihilation Ritual states:

Quote

When a creature would enter a discard pile from play it is purged instead.

Strange Gizmo reads:

Quote

After you forge a key, destroy each creature and artifact.

My first assumption would be, that I purge all creatures (removing them from this game session) and destroy all artifacts, putting those in the discard pile, but I could imagine, that someone might argue that the Annihilation Ritual is already 'gone' when the creatures would go to the discard pile ... and so the Annihilation Ritual doesn't trigger any more.

Which one is correct?

14 minutes ago, Shimaaji said:

Hi everyone,

I'm a bit unsure how these two artifacts interact.

Annihilation Ritual states:

Strange Gizmo reads:

My first assumption would be, that I purge all creatures (removing them from this game session) and destroy all artifacts, putting those in the discard pile, but I could imagine, that someone might argue that the Annihilation Ritual is already 'gone' when the creatures would go to the discard pile ... and so the Annihilation Ritual doesn't trigger any more.

Which one is correct?

Depends on if you as active player get to decide the order in which cards hit the discard pile.

If so, you could choose to discard all the opponent creatures/artifacts first (purging the creatures) then discard the annihilation ritual, then discard your own (preventing their being purged).

Board wipes destroy all targets at the same time, and a card must survive for its effect to trigger, so nothing gets purged as Annihilation Ritual gets destroyed simultaneously with everything else.

Edit: I think. I know all creatures are removed simultaneously and am dangerously assuming this would also apply toartifacts if it's the same effect causing the wipe.

Asymmetrical trigger resolution is patently un-fun. The best we can hope for is that FFG realizes their rules snafus lead to NPEs and take steps to resolve them.

All creatures and artifacts would be destroyed, nothing would be purged.

Reasoning, you don’t destroy creatures and “then” destroy artifacts, you destroy all creatures and artifacts, thus it’s one effect that happens simultaneously and thus since annhilation ritual is destroyed it’s continuous effect does not occur as it must be in play to do so. Source Constant abilities page 7.

”If a card has an ability that does not have a bold faced precursor, the ability is a constant ability that is active so long as the card remains in play and meets all conditions specified by the ability”

So effectively you’d forge a key, then the only card that’s meet its trigger is Strange Gizmo which destroys all creatures and artifacts. Since Annhilation ritual is destroyed and thus no longer in play it’s ability can not go off.

34 minutes ago, dperello said:

Board wipes destroy all targets at the same time, and a card must survive for its effect to trigger, so nothing gets purged as Annihilation Ritual gets destroyed simultaneously with everything else.

Edit: I think. I know all creatures are removed simultaneously and am dangerously assuming this would also apply toartifacts if it's the same effect causing the wipe.

What page in the rules says it’s simultaneous (and therefore none of the destroyed cards constant abilities take hold)?

9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

What page in the rules says it’s simultaneous (and therefore none of the destroyed cards constant abilities take hold)?

Honestly, I don't know if it does. The rulebook is pretty light on details. However, Brad Andres' clarification did appear on Facebook.

20 minutes ago, Derrault said:

What page in the rules says it’s simultaneous (and therefore none of the destroyed cards constant abilities take hold)?

It’s a singular effect, it says “destroy all creatures and artifacts” not “destroy all creatures then artifacts”. You are free to choose the order effects resolve if they occur at the same time but first a key is forged so the only effect that’s been triggered is strange gizmos, thus you don’t choose its effect simply resolves once its resolved we check to see if any other effects trigger. The only ones in this case would be “destroyed” effects, since anhilation ritual triggers when a creature is destroyed it would trigger as creatures where just destroyed but it died at the same time do to that little “and” over “then” and thus its no longer in play which brings us to constant abilities.

The only way it would work otherwise would be if we got a rule saying abilities could interupt other abilities, I have yet to see one. I mean even when it’s talking about timing conflicts (two things triggering at once) it just says the active player decides the order they’re resolve, it doesn’t say one ever interrupts the other but rather one resolves (active players choice) then the other resolves and here there isn’t even a timing conflict the later card requires he former to resolve for its trigger to even be met after which it’s gone anyways.

4 minutes ago, dperello said:

Honestly, I don't know if it does. The rulebook is pretty light on details. However, Brad Andres' clarification did appear on Facebook.

(Who is that?) I look forward to the Rules addition then if and when it happens. Until then, why wouldn’t I file that under order of operations decisions by the active player? (Ie resolve one at a time in the order cards enter the discard)?

5 minutes ago, Derrault said:

(Who is that?) I look forward to the Rules addition then if and when it happens. Until then, why wouldn’t I file that under order of operations decisions by the active player? (Ie resolve one at a time in the order cards enter the discard)?

Sorry. Brad Andres is the lead developer of KeyForge. His name appears second, after Richard Garfield in the rulebook. If anyone knows, he does.

11 minutes ago, dperello said:

Sorry. Brad Andres is the lead developer of KeyForge. His name appears second, after Richard Garfield in the rulebook. If anyone knows, he does.

Ah, hopefully that’ll be added soonish

46 minutes ago, Derrault said:

(Who is that?) I look forward to the Rules addition then if and when it happens. Until then, why wouldn’t I file that under order of operations decisions by the active player? (Ie resolve one at a time in the order cards enter the discard)?

Because it says you resolve the effects in the order of the active players choice, the effect is destroy all creatures and artifacts, thus until all creatures and artifacts are destroyed the effect is not resolved. What your proposing is resolving part of an effect then inserting a second effect resolving it, and then finishing the first effect. Mind you that’s how magic tends to work but going purely off RAW here there’s nothing about interrupting effects in the active player decision to my knowledge.

12 hours ago, TwitchyBait said:

Because it says you resolve the effects in the order of the active players choice, the effect is destroy all creatures and artifacts, thus until all creatures and artifacts are destroyed the effect is not resolved. What your proposing is resolving part of an effect then inserting a second effect resolving it, and then finishing the first effect. Mind you that’s how magic tends to work but going purely off RAW here there’s nothing about interrupting effects in the active player decision to my knowledge.

The ability to purge must interupt by nature. This is a static replacemnt effect. It replaces the effect of resolving an action with another action. It doesnt say after a creature is sent to discard purge. It says when it is sent purge instead. Instead is the key word here. This requires you to replace the discard effect with purge before it finishes resolving. Further the rules state that the discard piles order must be maintained which means it is on the active player to make a game relevant decision or the ording in which cards go to discard so that is not happening simultaneously. Remember it is not replacing the destroy effect it is replacing the way the card enters the discard pile which does have a player decided order. This definitely needs official clarification as the rules are not clear on how to interpret this. Everything that has been said here makes assumptions about what the rules are implying.

Someone’s going to have to explain to me what an “interrupting effect” is one of these days.

11 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Someone’s going to have to explain to me what an “interrupting effect” is one of these days.

Could look up the definition of interrupt perhaps.

Which page of the BRB would that be?

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Which page of the BRB would that be?

All rules for the discussion have already been cited, if you are to lazy to read the former posts that's on you. I'm not going through another one of your "let's be intentionally dense" sessions.

I was being rhetorical. You’re being rude.

FYI, the rules go straight from “if you do” to “keys.” Interrupts must be in the forthcoming RRG.

Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

I was being rhetorical. You’re being rude.

Lol yes you're initial response and lack of actual response to any cited explaining what was being discussed wasn't snarky at all. Transparent.

I was making a point. That’s the gist of being rhetorical.

2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I was making a point. That’s the gist of being rhetorical.

No, you weren't, you where ignoring all the cited rules and justifications given just to start an argument, as you've done repeatedly now. This is why, again you don't actually comment on any rules that where posted or given as reason for coming to a conclusion, you just disagree and give a snarky comment then pretend like you're a victim when people call you out on it.

You’re reading an awful lot into my comment, and avoiding the actual question. Very telling, but suit yourself.

Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

You’re reading an awful lot into my comment, and avoiding the actual question. Very telling, but suit yourself.

Again with a clear lack of citing of any rules discussed, again you're transparent. I rarely use the ignore feature on any kind of forum in hopes those I disagree with will add insight to something I didn't know before but it's becoming clear you seem to enjoy being confrontational for the sake of it and don't' really have anything of value to add so I'll gladly employ it now to avoid your posts from now on, good day.

There were no rules to cite. Hence my point.

Enjoy your one-man echo chamber!

53 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Someone’s going to have to explain to me what an “interrupting effect” is one of these days.

It's an effect that interrupts a currently triggering effect. There are none, that I know of, in Keyforge.