Hi people!

Long-time L5R player and GM (since 1st ed, eh), I lately found the dueling mechanic quite restrictive (I know, this is part of the lore, iaijutsu all the way) compared to the multiple fighting styles that exist in Rokugan. Basically, in a fluff way, you can be a master duellist if you are a Kakita or Mirumoto (or a Lion kensai in 2nd ed). And always with your iaijutsu skill.

But there are so many stories, historical or in fictions, depicting samourai duelling with yari, zanbatsu (sasaki kojiro!) or even chain weapons (maybe not the most honorable ones, I confess), that I felt a bit disapointed having to tell my players "sorry no, duels are iai-only". So I'm thinking about letting duels be duels.

Weapon is ready in hand, or both hands, depending the stance/spirit/school. Most samurai would fight with their katana, but the yari is also a noble weapon.

A Matsu samourai would have his katana hold aboe his head, a Kakita would still use iai, a Dragon would have both weapons in hand, directed to the ground in a "no stance" stance. A Mantis could have his kama in hand. A daidoji his spear. Of course, some weapons would be highly disregarded by the audiance, and no one would bring his ono into a formal duel at Otosan Uchi. But my goal is to allow people to duel even.

So, ok, I can treat that as a skirmish, yeah. But duel is also about judging your opponent, waiting for him to move, and try to take him out pretty briefly. So the Stredown contest is pretty nice in this way.

So basically, the only thing I need to change (other than allowing other weapons into these duels) would be to allow the duelists to have their weapons ready.

Do you think it would be completly unbalance the mechanic ?

Its all good. You can already have duels with all kinds of weapon.

Just beware of busted techniques like Coiling Serpent Strike.

Or how would you play out a spear fighter with Iron Forest Style?

Or some Kiho, that could really screw up the 1v1 in a strict duel.

So. While it works, the strict range restriction of duels and the plethora of techniques that are not katana only techniques, and the fact that some weapons/styles clearly hard counter others can sometimes make it weird.

Here is my first take on how I would handle them;

I'd still feel more confident trying multiple weapon duels using a looser tactical grid (maybe 10x10 squares kind of, maybe a bit smaller) instead of the constrained standard duel range rules and my house rules (especially my fix to Coiling Serpent Strike and my changes to Center/Predict).

you'd probably be gucci with that.

but if you use core duel rules, but then throw in someone with Coiling Serpent Strike or some Kihos etc... You are opening the door to tons of abuses... i don't recommend it at all if you have no mastery of the game system.

To be honest duels in the setting can use any weapon. It's just that the iaijutsu duel is a ritualized form of it that has been pushed to popularity (prolly by Crane and for political reasons).

But normally, as you know, the challenged decides the details of the duel: when, where, to first blood, to incapacitation (I think this edition calls it warrior challenge), etc. So a iaijutsu duelist should be wary. Perhaps challenging a good Hida Bushi isn't gonna end how he thinks.

If you want to have first strike/single strike duels (kinda iaijutsu) with different weapons I don't see any issues. Just apply the normal rules (though I don't like those very much). But from a thematic point of view it sounds cool. Whatever works for your group.

2 hours ago, eScoub said:

But there are so many stories, historical or in fictions, depicting samourai duelling with yari, zanbatsu (sasaki kojiro!) or even chain weapons (maybe not the most honorable ones, I confess), that I felt a bit disapointed having to tell my players "sorry no, duels are iai-only". So I'm thinking about letting duels be duels.

Duels are not iai-only.

That's what the 'terms of the duel' bit is - what the victory conditions are, and what other restrictions are associated with it.

• If, for example, it's an iaijutsu duel, then yes, you're expected to start with sheathed weapons. But it doesn't have to be.
• The more formal the setting, the more restrictions are appropriate to place - for example, a Crane-managed 'policy debate' duel is likely to be:
  • Iaijutsu rules
  • Ceremonial weapons and clothing only
  • No wargear weapons
  • To first strike or first blood
  • These rules pretty much leave you with a 'classic' iaijutsu duel, with formal robes and katanas.
• By comparison, a duel can be a 'warriors duel' which basically allows whatever the heck you want and is fought to incapacitation. If you want to turn up in full plate with a tetsubo....then go right ahead, and the idiot who turns up in a kimono with a razor-edged sword is likely to be the first rokugani to reach orbit.
• Essentially, this is where the other characters come in - the duellist will fight the duel, but a courtier might be asked to win a brief intrigue beforehand to persuade the opponent or the lord on whose turf the duel is fought to accept a duel in a format beneficial to their particular champion.

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

Or some Kiho, that could really screw up the 1v1 in a strict duel.

In my point of view (and "my" Rokugan, kiho would be little seen in duels. Because duels (formal ones, I mean) are between samurai, and samurai fight with weapons. Of course people with access to kiho might sometimes use them.

As for @Magnus Grendel : yeah, I have my own version of the things, and I see 2 types of duel: formal ones, without armor, and "encounters" where players have no time to take it off if they are wearing some. But few samurai are wearing armour outside their lord's lands... These are the main types, then fighters decide if it's first strike, first blood, etc. Again, it's "my" Rokugan

5 minutes ago, eScoub said:

In my point of view (and "my" Rokugan, kiho would be little seen in duels. Because duels (formal ones, I mean) are between samurai, and samurai fight with weapons. Of course people with access to kiho might sometimes use them.

As for @Magnus Grendel : yeah, I have my own version of the things, and I see 2 types of duel: formal ones, without armor, and "encounters" where players have no time to take it off if they are wearing some. But few samurai are wearing armour outside their lord's lands... These are the main types, then fighters decide if it's first strike, first blood, etc. Again, it's "my" Rokugan

if you start to put narrative rules in there, then there is no point of asking the question in the first place. do whatever you want.

your question was;

"Do you think it would be completly unbalance the mechanic ?"

So, in other words: do you think using the mechanic duel rules as written, in a warrior's duel with each opponent using the weapon/gear/style they want, would work under the current rule system.

the question deserves a mechanical answer. not a courtier's answer of "yes this option is allowed but no this other option is not allowed"

if you want to start putting narrative into it, your original question had absolutely no purpose because you are basically setting "rules" for the duels so that some weapons/techniques/styles could be "unacceptable". By doing that you narratively control the situation so you don't have to deal with problematic/unbalanced rules.

feelsbad.

8 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

if you want to start putting narrative into it, your original question had absolutely no purpose because you are basically setting "rules" for the duels so that some weapons/techniques/styles could be "unacceptable". By doing that you narratively control the situation so you don't have to deal with problematic/unbalanced rules.

You misunderstood my point. My question was: from a rules point of view, is allowing characters to have their weapons ready would unbalance the duel mechanic ? as you said it:

13 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

So, in other words: do you think using the mechanic duel rules as written, in a warrior's duel with each opponent  using the weapon/gear/style they want  , would work under the current rule system.

I won't forbid any weapon, my players just don't "feel" very honorable to bring a tetsubo to a duel.

3 minutes ago, eScoub said:

You misunderstood my point. My question was: from a rules point of view, is allowing characters to have their weapons ready would unbalance the duel mechanic ? as you said it:

I won't forbid any weapon, my players just don't "feel" very honorable to bring a tetsubo to a duel.

then my first answer (post) was valid;

the game is easily abusable if you start to use polearms, snaring, kiho etc but keep the restricted/strict range rule of duels.

(and we didn't talk about armors, but i just assumed they wouldn't be allowed)

8 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

then my first answer (post) was valid;

the game is easily abusable if you start to use polearms, snaring, kiho etc but keep the restricted/strict range rule of duels.

So, for you, the range would be the biggest problem in here ?

7 minutes ago, eScoub said:

So, for you, the range would be the biggest problem in here ?

the strict range of duels, i think yes, that it could make some weapons/techniques a bit underwhelming or overwhelming.

also Coiling Serpent Strike, on top of my head, would be insanely good in a duel in which you can't really move outside of the range mentioned or that you dont have backup weapons.

On 11/22/2018 at 3:12 PM, Avatar111 said:

the strict range of duels, i think yes, that it could make some weapons/techniques a bit underwhelming or overwhelming.

also Coiling Serpent Strike, on top of my head, would be insanely good in a duel in which you can't really move outside of the range mentioned or that you dont have backup weapons.

Ironically, classic iaijutsu duelling is one of the best answers to it (for all its other problems) since you can't target a sheathed weapon.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ironically, classic iaijutsu duelling is one of the best answers to it (for all its other problems) since you can't target a sheathed weapon.

Yes

But the subject was about duels with other weapons, ans starting with weapons not sheated.

That can end up in CSS fest if you don't allow more freedom/tactical movement.