Displays not so random...

By Dimmu222, in KeyForge

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on security or RNG, programming, or mathematics. I am a hobbyist at the best of times. Forgive me for any misunderstanding or errors in the following.

Things to Ponder :

There are so many issues that will play a part in just how random things are in the game, be it deck contents or distribution of decks and the randomization thereof, especially in the first release. There are currently only 370 unique cards in the database. There are 3 out of 7 factions in each deck, with the number of cards in each faction being fairly consistent. There are 12 of each faction in a deck. For simplicity, lets say the decks are weigthed: 1(common), 2(uncommon), 8(rare), and 256(super special) . The number of any specific type of card is aslo constrained—at least two creatures in each faction, etc. Also, certain special cards will always be found together (the four horsemen). All of these factors limit complete randomization, though that's not a bad thing, as no one wants to open a deck with no Mars creatures (though I do have one with only two and sucks enough). This is all being based on algorithms, which may or may not be very securely guarded, and psuedo-randomizaton, which may or may not be I think seeing patterns that don't exist or RNG failure are both possible.

RNG (Random Number Generation) :

There is also the possibility of sloppy randomization of decks on the part of the manufacturer. Insufficient entropy early in RNG may be part of the problem in earlier product. That can also be the case with any manner of pseudorandomization. The problem is much worse if there is a definitive algorithm to determine what goes where. If the distribution of decks is based on an encrypted randomizer with improperly salted hash tables this can lead to crackers or hackers who may be able to identify deck names, contents, and various other types of information, and especially problematic where decks may end up. This is especially true in deck distribution among boxes. Those inexperienced with CCGs will be more likely open to security vulnerabilities in these area.

While FFG has done a lot of LCGs, none of these things matter for those.

All of this makes me wonder what the security team was like for KF and what their scope in the project was (purely design side or comprehensive through manufacturing/packing)? If the manufacturer is especially good as such things, but ill-informed from the company, this could lead to patterns. My father-in-law was is a retired maths professor from NYU, maybe I can drag him into some of this as a puzzle solving experiment).

The possibility of dwindling unique randomization may also come into play if they have print enough product with such constraints and minimal unique content.

Seeing Patterns :

All that being said, human beings are very good at seeing patterns where none really exist. With only 370 different cards and all the other limiting factors on randomization this can lead to these "patterns" being seen incidentally quite often. There may be a vast number of combinations, but the type of randomness you're looking for is likely to look less patterned over time as new sets come out. If it's truly random, much of what it does in a small enough sample, even if they seem large to you) will look like patterns. A deck that's truly random might have seven cards come out in order and we'll say, "Well that's not random." There's nothing special about order to a true randomizer.

I'm not saying that there isn't a pattern, and if FFG can identify exactly where each deck is to pull inappropriate ones, then it's almost certainly a hashed value that can be cracked. If they're using hashed randomization—which would decrease effort to match decks to the database—if they're not appropriately salted (ie reusing salt, or salts that are too short), then that could be an issue not only for randomizing product, but also keeping unique identifiers secure all the way up to entire box contents based on two or three decks.

It makes me want to play (the game and the hacking thereof).

In opening more boxes with friends, we noticed again that there tend to be some rares in multiple occurences in a same display.

For example, a guy just opened a half display and got 3 horsemen deck... Ok ok, everything's fine, it's totally random :) !

To add to this, in watching some decks that are put on the single market, I noticed the same thing (some shops add decks 12 by 12 in opening one display at a time). So I'm sure the algorithm isn't totally random...

Can FFG explain us how they wrote a recursive algorithm that considers N-10 previous decks :D ?

A lot of people noticed what I'm explaining here and it would be nice to have an official answer. Something like "We are aware of the problem and we'll fix it as soon as possible".

4 minutes ago, Dimmu222 said:

In opening more boxes with friends, we noticed again that there tend to be some rares in multiple occurences in a same display.

For example, a guy just opened a half display and got 3 horsemen deck... Ok ok, everything's fine, it's totally random :) !

To add to this, in watching some decks that are put on the single market, I noticed the same thing (some shops add decks 12 by 12 in opening one display at a time). So I'm sure the algorithm isn't totally random...

Can FFG explain us how they wrote a recursive algorithm that considers N-10 previous decks :D ?

A lot of people noticed what I'm explaining here and it would be nice to have an official answer. Something like "We are aware of the problem and we'll fix it as soon as possible".

You guys are human, you are programmed to attribute patterns you see to (likely imaginary) causes rather than randomness. Unless some proper statistics are done on this, there is no problem to be aware of.

6 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

You guys are human, you are programmed to attribute patterns you see to (likely imaginary) causes rather than randomness. Unless some proper statistics are done on this, there is no problem to be aware of.

I don't know. I bought 3 decks, than 2 decks, then 2 decks, then 3 decks

first 3 decks had Mars, Untamed, X

first 2 decks had Brobnar, Mars, X

second 2 decks had actual randomness Mars was the only absent faction

second 3 decks had Sanctum, X, X

1 minute ago, 10Ten said:

I don't know. I bought 3 decks, than 2 decks, then 2 decks, then 3 decks

first 3 decks had Mars, Untamed, X

first 2 decks had Brobnar, Mars, X

second 2 decks had actual randomness Mars was the only absent faction

second 3 decks had Sanctum, X, X

That is completely normal! Randomness does not mean equal distributions, if spikes didn't happen it wouldn't be actual randomness. I'm actually pretty sure that having some house overlap between decks is much more likely than having none.

16 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

That is completely normal! Randomness does not mean equal distributions, if spikes didn't happen it wouldn't be actual randomness. I'm actually pretty sure that having some house overlap between decks is much more likely than having none.

It feels poopoo to buy 6 decks before getting my first Sanctum faction but getting Mars 5 times, Untamed 4 times.

Kinda makes you wonder how well the distribution is for the randomness

Edited by 10Ten
wrong faction named
3 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

It feels poopoo to buy 6 decks before getting my first Logos faction but getting Mars 5 times, Untamed 4 times.

Kinda makes you wonder how well the distribution is for the randomness

Well yes, but that is what happens with randomness. I haven't encountered Brobnar in 5 decks, but I don't expect my next deck to have Brobnar because of that, quite the contrary, it is more likely not to.

Unfortunately we mere humans don't get to play with the 1,000,000,000,000. We play in the ones and tens places.

Yes, I am sorry, I was bummed a bit that buying my first 5 decks, 3 on one day, 2 four days later at a different shop, and getting Mars in every single deck and Untamed in 4 of the 5.

They talk about all the randomness and sorry didn't look very random to me.

5 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Unfortunately we mere humans don't get to play with the 1,000,000,000,000. We play in the ones and tens places.

Yes, I am sorry, I was bummed a bit that buying my first 5 decks, 3 on one day, 2 four days later at a different shop, and getting Mars in every single deck and Untamed in 4 of the 5.

They talk about all the randomness and sorry didn't look very random to me.

I can relate to how frustrating it is, could even be a compelling argument for using a semi-random distribution of houses, but that probably doesn't fit into FFGs buisness strategy for this, they need to hook us in some way after all :D

Our 2 displays got here yesterday. I told them about this "issue" and we oppened the displays and randomized them before dividing 8 decks for each.

I got 7 brobnar out of 8 decks... Just one Logos

4 Sanctum decks, one with 1x Protect the weak, another with 2x Protect the weak and yet another one with THREE Protect the weak.

2 of my decks have the same house combination. They both have Hecatomb, Eater of the Dead. Those are the decks with 1x and 2x Protect the Weak. The Brobnar part is very different, though.

In my 7 Brobnar decks I have 3x King of the Crag, 2x Kelifi Dragon

Did I mentioned that I got only one Logos? That makes me sad...

Almost half my decks (3/7) feature Sanctum and Mars, one is from a pre-release display, one from my starter, one from the LGS. Even more Sanctum and Mars in other decks. Patterns happen, if they didn't it wouldn't be random.

I haven't opened up any display boxes, but just 6 decks at random times, and I purchased 3 decks from someone else. I'm counting those 3 as decks that I opened, because they are the same bit of randomness. Here is what I found from my houses:

--------------------------------------------

I've purchased 9 decks so far. That is 27 houses total.

Brobnar - 5 decks
Dis - 1 deck
Logos - 4 decks
Mars - 2 decks
Sanctum - 4 decks
Shadows - 4 decks
Untamed - 6 decks

Now, I do believe that the decks are random, but I wonder if Dis is more uncommon than other houses (or if that was just how RNGs acted for me).

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This was part of a post on social media, where I was questioning if some of the houses are more rare than others. Out of 27 house possibilities, I only got one Dis and two Mars. I would like to hear other people's house break downs, for all of their decks. I think that this is more important than just comparing several cards, because we are likely to get lots of common duplicates with how they create decks.

15 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

This was part of a post on social media, where I was questioning if some of the houses are more rare than others. Out of 27 house possibilities, I only got one Dis and two Mars. I would like to hear other people's house break downs, for all of their decks. I think that this is more important than just comparing several cards, because we are likely to get lots of common duplicates with how they create decks.

I've got 7 decks, 4 instances of Mars, Shadows, Untamed, and Sanctum, 2 of Logos and Dis, 1 Brobnar. 3 Decks each have Mars/Sanctum or Shadows/Untamed. So while I have a good variety of houses, the variety of deck makeups isn't all that great. Fortunately the actual variety of play-styles is staggering and frankly what hooked me on the game.

4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I've got 7 decks, 4 instances of Mars, Shadows, Untamed, and Sanctum, 2 of Logos and Dis, 1 Brobnar. 3 Decks each have Mars/Sanctum or Shadows/Untamed. So while I have a good variety of houses, the variety of deck makeups isn't all that great. Fortunately the actual variety of play-styles is staggering and frankly what hooked me on the game.

I definitely agree with you there. It's the play styles and combinations that has me hooked. I could easily look at decks and focus on similarities, but it is the differences between my decks that has me so intrigued. Of course I'm only evaluating two people's house lists (mine and yours), but your rarest with one house (brobnar) is my second most common with five houses (brobnar). In both of our cases, Dis was on the rarer side. I do not think this will hold up, as I believe we will see an average of houses in decks ..... but, we need more statistics to evaluate this. I'm surprised that compendium isn't looking at house builds yet.

Brobnar is my most common, followed by Dis 😂

I think there's almost zero chance that the display decks aren't random, but I'll throw my data out there:

3 Displays opened:

Un Ma Br Di Lo Sa Sh

04 07 03 07 04 07 04

06 06 04 03 06 05 06

05 06 06 03 06 04 06

In the first box there were two decks that were Ma/Di/Lo, all others were unique.

In the second box all decks were unique.

In the third box all decks were unique.

For all 3 boxes, there were three decks that were Ma/Sa/Sh. No other deck was repeated more than twice. Eleven decks were unique.

Edited by andrew144

100% of the decks I've bought have Sanctum. Two thirds of my decks have Shadows, and two thirds have Dis. 100% of my decks with Dis in feature the "Control the Weak" + "Restringuntus" combo.

Of course, a sample size of three isn't really enough to draw any conclusions. :D

I don't know if the decks go through any kind of mixing in a big hopper process before they're packed into displays?

Edited by Showsni
7 minutes ago, Showsni said:

I don't know if the decks go through any kind of mixing in a big hopper process before they're packed into displays?

In theory they shouldn't have to, since all decks are printed individually rather than pulling from cards that are printed in sets and then distributed to the packs (like a traditional CCG). Since nobody outside of FFG NDAs knows how the process works precisely, though, we can't tell for sure.

On 11/30/2018 at 8:18 AM, 10Ten said:

It feels poopoo to buy 6 decks before getting my first Sanctum faction but getting Mars 5 times, Untamed 4 times.

Kinda makes you wonder how well the distribution is for the randomness

I had to open 7 decks before my 8th gave me my first Untamed deck.