Originally posted in the BoardGameGeek X-Wing Forums

Hello folks,

I'm taking a quick break from working on the Tactical Droid quick-build cards to polish-up something else that has been in my mind.

I'm sure many of you have played LucasARTS excellent X-Wing combat simulators for PC. One of the best mechanics of the game was the management of the ships power systems, creating a lot of strategy and flexibility.

I think this can be implemented into X-Wing miniatures both 1.0 and 2.0 editions.

I need the help of the community to try it out and provide feedback and ideas.

Power Management System

Here is how the system works. Each player ship gets one power card:

If you have a ship with shields, then you can use all 3 systems. If your ship lacks shields, then you only use Lasers and Engines.

The default setup is with all 3 (or 2) systems at normal powers (zero). You can use any token to mark your selections.

You can then shift power between systems to gain bonuses or penalties depending on the situation. Move your token to mark the new position. The rules for moving power is that your setting has to always sum zero net power. For example:

or

Timing

I've been thinking about two possibilities:

1) Each ship sets their power once per round immediately at the beginning of its activation. The energy levels are then applied until the next activation. This gives high-PS (initiative) pilots more advantage.

2) Each ship sets their power during the end phase, in order of PS (initiative). This leaves players more guessing at what each ship is going to do on the next round.

Both possibilities are interesting. More play-testing will give more insights.

Game Integration

Here are some ideas to further embed the power system into the game:

1) There can be damage cards that impact your power system. For example, "Damaged Power Converters" that reduce your total power by 1 (your power sum must now be -1 instead of 0). Specific damage cards that target individual systems also come to mind.

2) The power system could be added to a ship not by default, but as a modification with point cost. You can have a "basic" unit with power levels of +1, 0 and -1, and an "advanced" unit with power levels of +2, +1, 0, -1 and -2 for a higher point cost.

3) For campaign play (HOTAC) this can a be a fun way to boost player "hero" ships against the A.I.

That's all in a nutshell. Give it some play-testing and post your feedback. I would like to release the system as a download with printable rules, cards, etc.

Great system, but I would like to see increment/decrement in maximum speed, depending on the energy level (because that what it was about). I don't know how to do it, though...

A more direct way to do this is design a new dial associating shield and laser power up to maneuvers similar to epic play energy points

The obvious suggestion for 2.0 (aside from replacing 'green' with 'blue') would be to adjust power balance in the System Phase before activation. The problem with both this and doing it when you activate is potentially changing to difficulty of your already dialled in move giving a lot of room to mess up, so probably best to do it in the End Phase.

This needs to be limited somehow, otherwise we will have the problem again of unlimited regen, that the devs clearly solved by adding charges to R2-D2 (and R2 Astromech); or bombers slow-rolling with permanent +1 attack.
Perhaps giving this a number of charges?

Miranda Doni's ability was the closest thing to the ELS system in the miniature game. Many found her ability overpowered, and now it is very much neutered.

Have you seen the little things the BSG miniature game comes with? Something similar would work great here. Or additional dials.

But really, this needs to be charge based or limited in some way. We can't unlimited shield regen.

Changes should happen during the Systems Phase. There's not enough going on in that phase currently. Forces you to think ahead a bit and lets you react.

I would actually prefer if this was secret from your opponent. It would make a bit more sense, I'd think. Some custom upgrades could be added for that purpose. Could also have cards that let you use too much energy without a drawback, but only so often or in certain circumstances.

If you accidentally overcharge, should cause your ship to ionize or stress or cause some new condition not in game yet (maybe depending on which system is drawing the most power in an overcharged scenario.

2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

This needs to be limited somehow, otherwise we will have the problem again of unlimited regen, that the devs clearly solved by adding charges to R2-D2 (and R2 Astromech); or bombers slow-rolling with permanent +1 attack.
Perhaps giving this a number of charges?

My thought would be at +1, negate one attack die that could have removed a shield. And +2 it's 2 attack dice. No regen; just extra protection. 'Course, now it's a super power Reinforce, but maybe that's not as bad??

I love the concept, but man, this could become a bookkeeping nightmare. And basically impossible to keep track of for Epic.

Eh, I don't mind the possibility of endless shield regens so much when it's casual play, everyone can do it, and there's a real trade-off.

How does it work for shieldless craft, though? Does it still balance at 0, because that seems to hit them a bit hard, in addition to not having shields.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

My thought would be at +1, negate one attack die that could have removed a shield. And +2 it's 2 attack dice. No regen; just extra protection. 'Course, now it's a super power Reinforce, but maybe that's not as bad??

I love the concept, but man, this could become a bookkeeping nightmare. And basically impossible to keep track of for Epic.

The dev team has gone a great length to improve bookkeeping for second edition, so definitely this should do the same.
Perhaps this could be simplified with some abstracted double-sided tokens:

When you operate the ELS system, you assign a number of green ELS tokens to your ship.
The Basic ELS System lets you assign 1, while the Advanced ELS System lets you assign 2.
For each green ELS token you assign, you must also assign a different, orange ELS token.

The effects could be these:
Green Laser : When attacking with a primary weapon, a cannon, or a turret, you may spend this token to roll one extra die to a maximum of 3, or to reroll one attack die.
Orange Laser : When a ship has one of these tokens assigned, it rolls one fewer attack die when performing primary attack, or a cannon, or turret attack. When a ship has two of these tokens assigned, its weapons are disabled.

Green Engine : When defending, you may spend this token to roll one extra evade die to a maximum of 3, or to reroll one defense die. When performing a maneuver, you may spend two of these tokens to reduce the difficulty of your maneuver.
Orange Engine : A ship that has at least one of these tokens assigned rolls one fewer defense die when defending. A ship that has two of these tokens assigned increases the difficulty of its revealed maneuvers. It cannot perform red maneuvers.

Green Shield : A ship that has one of these tokens assigned, when it uses one of its shield tokens to cancel damage, it may, instead, cancel 2 damage. You may spend two of these tokens to recover one shield.
Orange Shield : A ship that has one of these tokens assigned cannot use their shield tokens to cancel damage when defending. A ship that has two of these tokens assigned immediately spends one shield, then discards one of these tokens. (You may not pick this token if you aren't shielded).

They are round tokens, so they are discarded at the end of the round.

16 hours ago, Odanan said:

Great system, but I would like to see increment/decrement in maximum speed, depending on the energy level (because that what it was about). I don't know how to do it, though...

Maybe the Engine +2 could allow you to perform a boost of the same bearing as your maneuver. So straight if it was straight, banked if it was a bank. Other maneuvers (turns, talons, segnors, koiograns, etc) don't allow this.

Thanks everyone for the great feedback.

3 hours ago, Azrapse said:

The effects could be these:

Green Laser : When attacking with a primary weapon, a cannon, or a turret, you may spend this token to roll one extra die to a maximum of 3, or to reroll one attack die.
Orange Laser : When a ship has one of these tokens assigned, it rolls one fewer attack die when performing primary attack, or a cannon, or turret attack. When a ship has two of these tokens assigned, its weapons are disabled.

Green Engine : When defending, you may spend this token to roll one extra evade die to a maximum of 3, or to reroll one defense die. When performing a maneuver, you may spend two of these tokens to reduce the difficulty of your maneuver.
Orange Engine : A ship that has at least one of these tokens assigned rolls one fewer defense die when defending. A ship that has two of these tokens assigned increases the difficulty of its revealed maneuvers. It cannot perform red maneuvers.

Green Shield : A ship that has one of these tokens assigned, when it uses one of its shield tokens to cancel damage, it may, instead, cancel 2 damage. You may spend two of these tokens to recover one shield.
Orange Shield : A ship that has one of these tokens assigned cannot use their shield tokens to cancel damage when defending. A ship that has two of these tokens assigned immediately spends one shield, then discards one of these tokens. (You may not pick this token if you aren't shielded).

I like your ideas and how they would integrate very well with tracking tokens. Some thoughts:

Green Laser. Ideally I liked the concept from the PC game that having fully-powered lasers helped you shoot farther, thus my "No Range 3 defense bonus". I was also considering adding a shooting at Range 4 ability (whit the same penalty as range 3).

Orange Laser. Conversely, under-powered lasers had shorter range. I was debating whether to have "Double Range 3 defense bonus" but settled with "No Range 1 attack bonus".

Green shield. Your thoughts of +1 and +2 are in conflict with one another: it might be better to be at +1 than at +2. Perhaps +2 retains the +1 ability. Several people mentioned re-gen being a potential issue. Perhaps the probabilities can be lowered. Instead of 50% at +1 and 100% at +2, they could be made 25% at +1 (focus) and 50% at +2 (hit/crit). Note that re-gen is not free -you are sacrificing attack and/or movement to get it.

Orange shield. One of the tactics you would do in the PC game was that as soon as you were out of shields, you either 1) assigned power to recharge them or 2) drained all their power and put it to E or L. There was no point to have power on depleted shields. I assume this is why you included the "You might not pick this token if you aren't shielded", otherwise this could be abused. The issue with your suggestion is that, once you are out of shields, you are stuck at either keeping them at zero or recharging. You should still be able to remove power from depleted shields, my solution was to "all damage is critical damage".

It all needs to be simple enough to track easily and add flavor/fidelity from the PC game.

All ideas are great, but it's when the rubber meets the road that all counts. It would be great to hear people play-test the different ideas and post experiences/thoughts. Play-testing is where I'm limited in time 🙁

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

My thought would be at +1, negate one attack die that could have removed a shield. And +2 it's 2 attack dice. No regen; just extra protection. 'Course, now it's a super power Reinforce, but maybe that's not as bad??

I love the concept, but man, this could become a bookkeeping nightmare. And basically impossible to keep track of for Epic.

My original idea for tracking was to have a printed power card like in the picture and placed next to the pilot card. Tokens would be placed on top of this card to track power. The fact that there is no tracking on the board might make it difficult. This is where @Azrapse 's idea comes in.

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

How does it work for shieldless craft, though? Does it still balance at 0, because that seems to hit them a bit hard, in addition to not having shields.

Ships without Shields would only use E and L.

So when I read the title, I was really hoping you were remastering the old video games. I’d play a new X-Wing vs TIE Fighter game in a heartbeat.

4 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

So when I read the title, I was really hoping you were remastering the old video games. I’d play a new X-Wing vs TIE Fighter game in a heartbeat.

it has been already done. You must have the original cd or the legal downloaded version, but it has ben upgraded. Search on Youtube and you'll find all information about it.

8 hours ago, CapitanGuinea said:

it is being done. You must have the original cd or the legal downloaded version, but it is being upgraded. Search on Youtube and you'll find all information about it.

Sorry for nitpicking, but I had to fix that for you.

12 hours ago, OoALEJOoO said:

Thanks everyone for the great feedback.

I like your ideas and how they would integrate very well with tracking tokens. Some thoughts:

Green Laser. Ideally I liked the concept from the PC game that having fully-powered lasers helped you shoot farther, thus my "No Range 3 defense bonus". I was also considering adding a shooting at Range 4 ability (whit the same penalty as range 3).

Orange Laser. Conversely, under-powered lasers had shorter range. I was debating whether to have "Double Range 3 defense bonus" but settled with "No Range 1 attack bonus".

Green shield. Your thoughts of +1 and +2 are in conflict with one another: it might be better to be at +1 than at +2. Perhaps +2 retains the +1 ability. Several people mentioned re-gen being a potential issue. Perhaps the probabilities can be lowered. Instead of 50% at +1 and 100% at +2, they could be made 25% at +1 (focus) and 50% at +2 (hit/crit). Note that re-gen is not free -you are sacrificing attack and/or movement to get it.

Orange shield. One of the tactics you would do in the PC game was that as soon as you were out of shields, you either 1) assigned power to recharge them or 2) drained all their power and put it to E or L. There was no point to have power on depleted shields. I assume this is why you included the "You might not pick this token if you aren't shielded", otherwise this could be abused. The issue with your suggestion is that, once you are out of shields, you are stuck at either keeping them at zero or recharging. You should still be able to remove power from depleted shields, my solution was to "all damage is critical damage".

It all needs to be simple enough to track easily and add flavor/fidelity from the PC game.

All ideas are great, but it's when the rubber meets the road that all counts. It would be great to hear people play-test the different ideas and post experiences/thoughts. Play-testing is where I'm limited in time 🙁

Green Laser+ token:
The problem of range 4 is that many don't have a range ruler that is longer than 3.
If this wasn't a problem, though, I think it could be nice, as long as you need to spend your green laser token to reach range 4, so you don't have it to roll an extra die or reroll. Otherwise ships with this would have a massive firing arc with extra firepower.
We don't want to go back to the power creep of First Edition where throwing 3 dice was starting the become underpowered, since everyone else was throwing 4 or more fully modified dice. That is why I thought that ships that have attack 2 would roll one extra die, but ships that already have attack 3 would only get a reroll. To avoid dice inflation.
Orange Laser- token :
I'm going to be pedantic now: The fully powered lasers in the simulators were the normal lasers. It was the underpowered lasers that got debuffed in respect to the normal. They dealt less damage and had shorter range. That is why I thought that removing one die should be the effect of this token, because otherwise it wouldn't have effect at range 2, and I think a weakened weapon should be reflected at all ranges.
The shorter range could be a bit too harsh, especially on turrets that normally are only range 1-2. Perhaps instead of shortening the range by 1, we could say that the maximum range is 2?
I don't really think this would be necessary, since rolling one fewer die would still feel much less threatening for the defender at range 3 (they still get their extra defense die!).

Green Shield+ token :
You are right. It is better that your shields can cancel double a much damage than to recover a single shield. I was thinking on the fact that in Second Edition ships have much lower shield ratings than in first edition, so for the while they have shields, they would be stronger. However, once they run out of shields, a single green shield token wouldn't have any effect, since there are no shields left to cancel any damage. Then you would have to get two green shield tokens to recover a shield.
Ultimately, I think both stronger shields or recoverable shields are a very dangerous thing. On a B-wing or Y-wing, they aren't a big deal since these ships have so few ways to prevent damage that the shield pool will be spent rather quickly.
However, think on a TIE Defender with this. It would become almost impossible to kill that thing if it is regenerating shields or having stronger shields.
I don't like random stuff (the devs have removed most of the "Spend something to roll a die for a chance of a good thing" effects in Second Edition for a good reason), so I am not thrilled about the idea of you recovering shields only if you are lucky, even when you have got lasers/engines debuffed in order to roll.
What if we make shield recovery depend on the agility of the ship? What do yo think on these effects?:

- When defending, if you are shielded, you may spend a Green Shield+ token to reduce the amount of damage or critical damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.
- During the systems phase, you may spend as many Green Shield+ tokens as your Agility score, to recover 1 shield.

The first one lets you use your Green Shield+ tokens as soft reinforce. They only work if shielded, and they only work for one attack (you need to spend them). However, they aren't arc restricted. At the same time, it doesn't make ships invulnerable to damage.
The second one allows you to properly regen shields. It becomes easier for Agility 1 ships, harder for Agility 2 ships, and impossible for Agility 3 or higher ships (unless an even more advanced ELS system is released at some point). This would allow easy-to-hit ships to recover shields at the cost of their agility, speed, or firepower; at the same time that prevents almost unhittable ships from doing so.

Orange Shield- token :
If you truly want to keep the same logic as in the simulators, then sure. Once you have run out of shields there is no point on keeping power on them.
I am not sure if we want that here, since it becomes a no-brainer choice and, so, it removes a decision from the player. Losing your shields automatically becomes a bonus to your engines and lasers since you can always set the shield level to -2 (or get 2 orange shield tokens) with barely any consequences. That feels kind of wrong.
My reasoning was that once your ship runs out of shields, it behaves like an unshielded ship. That is, one without Shield system in the ELS, so you can only play from that point on with the Laser and Engine power levels. I think that makes it more fair, since TIE Fighters cannot get a laser or engine bonus by redirecting the shield power, since they have no shield power to play with.

I like it!

Some ideas (revised from original):

Green Laser : When attacking with a primary weapon, a cannon, or a turret, you may spend one or two Green Laser tokens to reroll the same amount of attack die. If you spend two, add a blank result to your roll.

As I remember, with high rate laser charge, you fire faster. I think this is well represented with a reroll. If you are a crazy shooting guy, you don't care about accuracy, hence the blank result.

Orange Laser : When a ship has one of these tokens assigned, after attack with a primary weapon, a cannon or a turret, its weapons are disabled. When a ship has two of these tokens assigned, its weapons are disabled.

You go out of energy if you attack to reflect the low energy at your disposal.

Green Engine : After you fully execute a maneuver, if you are not stressed and you perform a bank or straight maneuver, spend a Green Engine token to boost. When performing a maneuver, you may spend two Green Engine tokens to reduce the difficulty of your maneuver.

Option to boost to reflect the increase in speed.

Orange Engine : A ship that has at least one of these tokens assigned rolls one fewer defense die when defending, and Boost are red. A ship that has two of these tokens assigned increases the difficulty of its revealed maneuvers. It cannot perform red maneuvers or boost.

Green Shield : When defending, you may spend one Green Shield token to gain a Reinforce token. You may spend two Green Shield tokens to recover one shield.
Orange Shield : If you have one or two Orange Shield tokens, when cancelling hit results, spend two shields instead of one. A ship that has two of these tokens assigned immediately removes one shield at the End Phase.

Only more ideas