Even with so little information on wave 3 we can already make some assumptions on Delta 7, as we have one very comparable ship already - Tie advanced prototype, jedi ship with comparable dial, almost same stat line (1 shield to 1 hull difference) . V1 has linked actions, Delta has its ship ability, but has to sacrifice its force token to use it, so hard trade off. Skill 3 inquisitor cost 40, my guess on skill 3 Jedi knight costing around same, maybe few points more, if it cost less its because of faction its in. Now grand inquisitor cost 58, so Anakin and Obi can go into costs over 60. I will not be surprised at Anakin costing 67-68.

Could anyone give their opinion on costs of Delta 7 pilots?

40 sounds about right. I really enjoy playing the generic v1s, but they're not exactly setting the tournament scene on fire, so I doubt a similar but more expensive ship would see all that much play.

As for the configs, that's the real question. 3-5 for targeting? It is a bullseye ability which also requires focus/force, so somewhat limited usability. Probably on par with the v1s FCS.

7B is trickier. I'm guessing 10-15 points, depending on what the T-70 ends up costing.

14 minutes ago, Okapi said:

40 sounds about right. I really enjoy playing the generic v1s, but they're not exactly setting the tournament scene on fire, so I doubt a similar but more expensive ship would see all that much play.

As for the configs, that's the real question. 3-5 for targeting? It is a bullseye ability which also requires focus/force, so somewhat limited usability. Probably on par with the v1s FCS.

7B is trickier. I'm guessing 10-15 points, depending on what the T-70 ends up costing.

7B should be pricey. Given that a shield upgrade costs 6 points on a 2ag ship, and this title grants 2 of them, I would anticipate a minimum cost of 15 points.

The remainder of the cost will link to whatever additional benefit the designers believe a red die has over a green die.

3 minutes ago, Vargas79 said:

7B should be pricey. Given that a shield upgrade costs 6 points on a 2ag ship, and this title grants 2 of them, I would anticipate a minimum cost of 15 points.

The remainder of the cost will link to whatever additional benefit the designers believe a red die has over a green die.

You can't really think of it like that, though. The 7B is basically another ship, and should be compared to ships with similar statlines, with the E-Wing and the T-70 being the closest. The Shield Upgrade is expensive because it adds flexibility, and has be at least a little overpriced so as to not be an autoinclude in certain builds. The 7B config is a package of stuff, and only usable on a single ship, so the can test that exact combination of stats more thoroughly.

A 61 point 7B Jedi Knight wouldn't necessarily be as dead in the water as a 61 point Knave, but it would be close. Certainly wouldn't see tournament tables. I predict 55 at the most. If the T-70 ends up at 45, I could see the 7B in the low fifties.

My prediction in the original Clone Wars announcement thread was Delta-7s would cost mid 40s in points (probably 45 or 46), and the 7B upgrade would add another 6 to 10 points to that. Limiting you to 4 bare metal Delta 7s, and only 3 7Bs. The uniques will probably run the gamut from 48-50, all way to potentially 80 depending on what abilities they have. The effects of purple actions could should shift this prediction a few points. If you're in the camp that think purple is good (which includes me), Then I think my prediction is accurate, potentially a point or 2 under depending on specific effect. If you think it's a bad thing then the price will probably be low 40s.

1 hour ago, Vargas79 said:

7B should be pricey. Given that a shield upgrade costs 6 points on a 2ag ship, and this title grants 2 of them, I would anticipate a minimum cost of 15 points.

The remainder of the cost will link to whatever additional benefit the designers believe a red die has over a green die.

Your thinking of this in terms of shield cost, I tend to look at the shield increase as the offset of the Agi decrease, so my question becomes how much is a permanent extra red dice worth on the Delta-7? You may be right but I think 15 is high.

55 minutes ago, Okapi said:

You can't really think of it like that, though. The 7B is basically another ship, and should be compared to ships with similar statlines, with the E-Wing and the T-70 being the closest.

People keep mentioning the E-wing comparison and I think that's a bad one, they both have lots of 3s in their stat line, and good dials, but the E-wing is well suited to using ordinance with its ship ability and pays for it. The 7B won't have ordinance most likely. Instead it will focus on maneuverability, avoiding attacks, and supporting ships. I think the Starviper is probably going to be the most apt comparison (Especially if you assume the +2 shields and -1 Agi offset each other).

• Regular Delta 7: Depends a lot on how the the Purple evade action works.
  • If it costs a force to use, I kind of think they would get a point cost a little less than the generic Inquisitor. The ship ability is, I think, a hair worse than the linked actions, the statline is slightly weaker with only 1 shield, and the generic Inquisitor is possibly a little overpriced as it is. 38 points for a generic Jedi.
  • If a purple action gives a force charge, like how a red action gives a stress, I could totally see the Delta 7 being a healthy chunk more than an Inquisitor (42? 46?). There'd be a really cool flow to the turn with a purple evade granting a force charge. Execute a maneuver, spend a force to boost or barrel roll, take an Evade action, gain back that force. A pair of actions without stress and net force cost of zero. A generic would have only one force token for offensive dice modification, but an Evade for defense, and a single movement action.
• 7B: I kind of think *at least* the low 50s. 3/2/3/3 is pretty close to an X-Wing statline, but this on a ship which has Boost and Barrel Roll without S-Foils attack dice restrictions, as well as a force point. Consider: there is a 6 point difference between a generic Inquisitor and either a Baron of the Empire or a Green Squadron Pilot. Comparing a Delta 7-B to an X-Wing, you'd start with a Red Vets at 43. Add 6 brings you up to 49, and then a few points for a ship ability which is better than S-Foils, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see one of these come in at 51 points or more.

//

The more I think about these, the ship ability is VERY VERY good. Boost or Barrel Roll at the cost of a force, then you can gain a normal action. Maybe that's just trading a force point for a Focus token or a Lock, which is fine. But thinking deeper, that's pretty much Darth Vader's ability. It can't chain three times, but (1 Force) = (1 Action) is the same basic math. Or you could Boost and Barrel Roll, costing a force rather than a stress. Well, if a normal X-Wing could boost and barrel roll and remain on 3 attack dice, that'd be really strong.

59 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

• Regular Delta 7: Depends a lot on how the the Purple evade action works.
  • If it costs a force to use, I kind of think they would get a point cost a little less than the generic Inquisitor. The ship ability is, I think, a hair worse than the linked actions, the statline is slightly weaker with only 1 shield, and the generic Inquisitor is possibly a little overpriced as it is. 38 points for a generic Jedi.
  • If a purple action gives a force charge, like how a red action gives a stress, I could totally see the Delta 7 being a healthy chunk more than an Inquisitor (42? 46?). There'd be a really cool flow to the turn with a purple evade granting a force charge. Execute a maneuver, spend a force to boost or barrel roll, take an Evade action, gain back that force. A pair of actions without stress and net force cost of zero. A generic would have only one force token for offensive dice modification, but an Evade for defense, and a single movement action.
• 7B: I kind of think *at least* the low 50s. 3/2/3/3 is pretty close to an X-Wing statline, but this on a ship which has Boost and Barrel Roll without S-Foils attack dice restrictions, as well as a force point. Consider: there is a 6 point difference between a generic Inquisitor and either a Baron of the Empire or a Green Squadron Pilot. Comparing a Delta 7-B to an X-Wing, you'd start with a Red Vets at 43. Add 6 brings you up to 49, and then a few points for a ship ability which is better than S-Foils, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see one of these come in at 51 points or more.

For the 7B, I'm right there with you, thinking we'll see 51 minimum on the Jedi Knight to avoid having 4 double re-positioning ships with X-wing durability and firepower, not to mention access to force tokens.

For Delta's without a config, my guess is going to be 40-42. Personally I see the purple evade costing a force, since returning a force is way too powerful on pilots with more than one charge. Force users are basically walking around with a stack of regenerating calculates, so giving them extra ways to get those back is very dangerous. It also means that the second config can be turned on by simply taking evades after spending your force for other actions. Their ship ability also seems to be more powerful than Auto-thrusters and linked actions in general, since it keeps them unstressed granting more freedom in maneuver selection than you'd get from a Tie Interceptor or similar platform.

The bullseye config is the wild card for me. If it's free that bumps my prediction up by at least a point or two. it could cost up to 3 but more is doubtful.

Can't wait for some previews to drop so we can look at more of their new force powers and whatnot. Someone should resurrect this thread once we have some more info on these guys.

Purple action makes them super unpredictable.

I think it’s likely you’ll be able to fly 4 Jedi Knights, 3 with the 7B config, or if purple is a cost rather than a benefit, maybe squeaking in 5, bare bones.

Edit: That said, I wouldn’t be shocked if you could only fit 3 in naked, if the purple action were good enough. Maybe even just 51-52 points? I doubt it, but it’s possible. Could still fit 3 with the 7B config at that point, I think, but not an extra ship?

10 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Purple action makes them super unpredictable.

I think it’s likely you’ll be able to fly 4 Jedi Knights, 3 with the 7B config, or if purple is a cost rather than a benefit, maybe squeaking in 5, bare bones.

Speak for yourself - when the Republic arrives I’m flying nothing smaller than 300pt lists!

5 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Speak for yourself - when the Republic arrives I’m flying nothing smaller than 300pt lists!

Better hope they get the revised Epic rules out by then...

Assuming they get to Epic any time soon (which is not an assumption I’m actually making), it would make a ton of sense to jump into it with the Clone Wars, though.

2 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Assuming they get to Epic any time soon (which is not an assumption I’m actually making), it would make a ton of sense to jump into it with the Clone Wars, though.

Not allot of "Huge" ship options for the Separatists, so they would be running allot of Large base and smaller. That would be fairly thematic, but really draining on the pocket book and sort of suck if the "Solitary" annotation in the limitations portion of the Tactical Relay upgrade is one per squad for that upgrade type (minus the inclusion of an epic only version that affects more than a few ships).

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Not allot of "Huge" ship options for the Separatists, so they would be running allot of Large base and smaller. That would be fairly thematic, but really draining on the pocket book and sort of suck if the "Solitary" annotation in the limitations portion of the Tactical Relay upgrade is one per squad for that upgrade type (minus the inclusion of an epic only version that affects more than a few ships).

Never thought about the Tactical Relay limitations, but yeah that would really put a damper on any plans to run CIS epic. Hopefully the return of Epic will come between waves. I know some are calling for it to come back yesterday, but I bet it wont happen until after Wave 3 comes out. I imagine FFG would rather focus on getting all 7 factions into the standard game before branching out to more fringe styles of play.

8 minutes ago, Hippie Moosen said:

I imagine FFG would rather focus on getting all 7 factions into the standard game before branching out to more fringe styles of play. 

Pretty much this. At least wave 3 has to come out first, if not one or two more waves, before it makes much sense at all to get back around to Epic.

@Hiemfire I guess I don't know much about what scale which ships are at. Watching rebels and getting a better idea of the Gozanti's scale has helped, but I guess I can't compare that directly with anything from Clone Wars very easily.

If you want to run named pilots, I believe the maximum (considering upgrades etc. ) will be 3. But if you run generic Jedi Knights I could see fitting 2 generic and 2 named. I think Obi-Wan and Anakin will fall in between the 55-65 point range.

Just now, SpiderMana said:

Pretty much this. At least wave 3 has to come out first, if not one or two more waves, before it makes much sense at all to get back around to Epic.

@Hiemfire I guess I don't know much about what scale which ships are at. Watching rebels and getting a better idea of the Gozanti's scale has helped, but I guess I can't compare that directly with anything from Clone Wars very easily.

You remember the big quad winged transports (C-9979s) that carried the droid army to Naboo's surface in Ep. 1? Those are about 4 Gozantis across (tip to tip) each. On that note Gozantis are a possibility (for just about every pre-TFA faction really, extremely common) as are the Aurore freighters though they fall into the same size band of being the low end of the Huge ship scale. Another possibility that has been brought up elsewhere are Trident Assault Ships, which aren't much bigger than Gozantis and nowhere near the size of a Corvette (either CR-90 or the imperial Raider series). CIS is just really sparse when it comes to ships smaller than a cruiser and larger than a light freighter.

6 hours ago, Redblock said:

Even with so little information on wave 3 we can already make some assumptions on Delta 7, as we have one very comparable ship already - Tie advanced prototype, jedi ship with comparable dial, almost same stat line (1 shield to 1 hull difference) . V1 has linked actions, Delta has its ship ability, but has to sacrifice its force token to use it, so hard trade off. Skill 3 inquisitor cost 40, my guess on skill 3 Jedi knight costing around same, maybe few points more, if it cost less its because of faction its in. Now grand inquisitor cost 58, so Anakin and Obi can go into costs over 60. I will not be surprised at Anakin costing 67-68.

Could anyone give their opinion on costs of Delta 7 pilots?

As others have already said, the effect purple action will influence cost quite a bit.

Having said that I think you're on the money with the Jedi Knight. 40pts seems about right for what does. Not having the restriction of stress with the linked action means the Jedi Knight will move more freely, but it also loses its force token in order to use its ship ability so I'd say its on par with an Inquisitor.

I imagine that if Darth Maul (and Darth Vader) gets 3 force charges, Ani and Obi will too. If that is the case then Anakin is going to cop the Vader tax all over again with high force and i6. I wouldn't surprised to see him at 60pts. His ability is hard to read (it seems like he gives stress to ships in his bullseye arc) but it is obvious from the image we've seen that it's bullseye centric at the least. Since anything bullseye is much harder to pull off than Luke/Grand Inky/Vader's abilities, straying too far north of 60pts seems a little over costed. 62pts seems fair, 65pts is getting up there in my eyes. His ability seems the weakest of the force sensitive aces we've seen so far, so maybe he ends up cheaper, we'll see.

Couple that with the Delta-7B config being say 8pts, R2 astro being 6pts, and supernatural reflexes being 12pts. This will get Ani to that 80-90 point bracket which seems about right for a force ace. The other named Jedi will all trickle down from there, I don't think speculating on those without knowing their abilities is going to be helpful though.

I don't think Delta-7B will be more than 10pts, that seems too high, 8pts seems good to me at a guess, making the Jedi Knight 48pts with a 3/2/3/3/1 statline. Its a pleb X-wing with a passive mod token.

Calibrated Laser Targeting is a tricky one. It's bullseye centric which should be cheap, but it adds a result which should be expensive. It will be stronger on the likes of Anakin and Obi Wan, but it'll most likely be horrible on the Knights. Given that it stops you from taking 7B, I'm going to err on the side of cheap and guess 3pts.

Everyone seems to agree Delta 7 cost belongs on how purple actions work. Lets dig deeper into that. There are 3 realistic versions on how purple actions will happen, optimistic one, pessimistic one and kinda optimistic one :D.

1. Optimistic one: Doing purple action gives focus. Chance of being true: around 5% if play testing team was high on something the whole time. It seems kinda likely if you look only at purple evade on delta, it still sounds balanced, but all those upgrades with purple coordinate kills this theory, as gaining force for coordinate would be broken on sooo many levels. If this version is true Jedi knight cost goes to 45-47 zone.

2. Pessimistic one: You have to spend focus to do purple action. Chance of happening: around 60% so most likely this is truth. On stock delta 7 it gives you hard choice - you either use ships ability, or do evade. It also sounds logical on those upgrades with purple coordinate, you either spend focus on ability given by upgrade, or use it for coordinate. If this is truth Jedi knight cost below 40, maybe around 38 -37.

3 Kinda optimistic one. You have to have unspent force to use purple action. Chance of happening - around 35% (most likely even less, but I really hope this is the true version). On stock delta 7 it still gives you hard choice of using ship ability or doing evade, but still have focus after that. Also works with coordinate upgrades, if they have start of activation, or before you activate abilities, that require spending focus. Hard choice, card ability, or use coordinate. If this is true Jedi knight cost between 40-42.

Bonus: conspiracy theory, purple action is version of red action, so its one of the 3 above, but you also get stress... will not even start crunching that.

36 minutes ago, Redblock said:

Everyone seems to agree Delta 7 cost belongs on how purple actions work. Lets dig deeper into that. There are 3 realistic versions on how purple actions will happen, optimistic one, pessimistic one and kinda optimistic one :D.

1. Optimistic one: Doing purple action gives focus. Chance of being true: around 5% if play testing team was high on something the whole time. It seems kinda likely if you look only at purple evade on delta, it still sounds balanced, but all those upgrades with purple coordinate kills this theory, as gaining force for coordinate would be broken on sooo many levels. If this version is true Jedi knight cost goes to 45-47 zone.

2. Pessimistic one: You have to spend focus to do purple action. Chance of happening: around 60% so most likely this is truth. On stock delta 7 it gives you hard choice - you either use ships ability, or do evade. It also sounds logical on those upgrades with purple coordinate, you either spend focus on ability given by upgrade, or use it for coordinate. If this is truth Jedi knight cost below 40, maybe around 38 -37.

3 Kinda optimistic one. You have to have unspent force to use purple action. Chance of happening - around 35% (most likely even less, but I really hope this is the true version). On stock delta 7 it still gives you hard choice of using ship ability or doing evade, but still have focus after that. Also works with coordinate upgrades, if they have start of activation, or before you activate abilities, that require spending focus. Hard choice, card ability, or use coordinate. If this is true Jedi knight cost between 40-42.

Bonus: conspiracy theory, purple action is version of red action, so its one of the 3 above, but you also get stress... will not even start crunching that.

There is entire thread digging deeper into that:

And it has other possibilities in it. Also, the general consensus in that thread is that purple actions will be a positive. This is because it being a negative is silly and will simply just make the Evade action unused on the Delta 7. Here is the long winded version (this was posted before the other ideas about what the purple actions could do in that thread):

On 11/9/2018 at 1:29 PM, GeneralVryth said:

There has been some speculation on whether the purple Evade on the Aethersprite means it can take the Evade action for free at the cost of spending a Force token (or just spend an action normally to do a white Evade), or that it requires spending a Force token to take the Evade action.

I believe the answer is the former (and it will work for all Force actions) and here is the thinking behind it.

First let's assume the latter situation is true, and that the Aethersprite's ship ability is you can preform a free Boost or Barrel Roll action after fully executing a maneuver by spending a Force token (which is what it looks like so far). This means that an Aethersprite trying to be evasive and not be hit could either:

• Spend a Force token and its action to take the Evade action. (Which is worse than a white Evade on one of the most agile ships in Star Wars)
• Or, it could spend a Force token to Boost/Barrel Roll to try and get out of arc, and take a Focus action which will give it a Focus token that on a 3 agility will provide a larger number of final evade results on average than an Evade token.
• Or, it could spend a Force token to Boost/Barrel Roll to try and get out of arc, and the other Boost\Barrel Roll action to get it further out of arc.

Now let's assume the former situation is true. The same evasive Aethersprite could do the following:

• Spend a Force token to take a free evade action and take a Focus action. (In effect using a ship specially built for Force users to trade the flexibility of a Force token for the defensive ability of an Evade token)
• Or, it could spend a Force token to Boost/Barrel Roll to try and get out of arc, and take a Focus action.
• Or, it could spend a Force token to Boost/Barrel Roll to try and get out of arc, and the other Boost\Barrel Roll action.

Of course there are other options in both scenarios as well, but look how much more balanced the second set of options are in comparison to the first. Also, how much more they fit the feeling of hyper agile ship specifically built for a Force user to take full advantage of their abilities.

Given all of that I think it's very likely a purple action is an action you can take normally, or can take for free at the cost of a Force token. The force user's equivalent of a linked action. This has other implications as well since we can upgrade cards with a purple coordinate action, which will make Jedi pilots good at efficiently giving orders to their co-pilots.

I still think the purple actions indicate spending a Force token to be able to perform the action while stressed... The purple action is treated as a white action otherwise.

Yeeeeeah, as much as I love discussing the hypotheticals of purple actions, I don’t feel like it’s going much of anywhere else until FFG tells us more.

27 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Yeeeeeah, as much as I love discussing the hypotheticals of purple actions, I don’t feel like it’s going much of anywhere else until FFG tells us more.

Agreed. Hopefully they're more forthcoming with info than they were/are with Wave 2...

36 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Yeeeeeah, as much as I love discussing the hypotheticals of purple actions, I don’t feel like it’s going much of anywhere else until FFG tells us more.

I agree completely. Which is why I was trying to shift the topic elsewhere. But whether they are good or bad will certainly impact the price of the Delta-7. It does look like most agree we will be able to run at least 4 bare Jedi Knight Delta-7s (I don't think we will get 5, the delta is clearly a better ship than the Advance v1 in my mind, which means it should cost more). It also, looks like the majority agrees on only 3 bare 7Bs but.

4 minutes ago, GeneralVryth said:

looks like the majority agrees on only 3 bare 7Bs but

E-Wing with 1 less agility and with the baked in post maneuver supernatural reflexes instead of the infinite range Locks. 3 bare Jedi Knight 7Bs seems likely.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

E-Wing with 1 less agility and with the baked in post maneuver supernatural reflexes instead of the infinite range Locks. 3 bare Jedi Knight 7Bs seems likely.

Ewings probably not the best comparison, FFG likely wants the 7Bs to be competitively costed.

That being said, I agree with 3 max. PS3 Starvipers are probably the best generic (in absolute terms, not best value) sub-50pt ship: PS3, EPT, 3/3/4/1, Bo/Br -> Focus at 48pts. The 7Bs better dial, force token, and option to get the same econ without the stress more than make up for the 1 agility. Unless the purple evade turns out to be among the weakest of the suspected mechanisms, there is no way they come in under 50.

I'd guess mid 50s.